COPY... right?, Games Workshop and Forgeworld - the legalities etc

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**Platuan4th**

Clthomps wrote:
Any pics of the progress so far? Im a big DE fan but just couldnt stand even their basic troops. ( well they looked good in codex )

I don't feel comfortable posting pictures of models until I can get a website and production line up and running, honestly there is just to much risk of someone "borrowing" my ideas and producing them before I do. But you can be sure that the first day I offer them for sale I will post it here.

I'd find it funny(and a bit tragic) if you just happen to be delayed to the point that you finally offer them only to have the amazing(some of the best ever GW models, IMO) new Dark Eldar Warriors be released right afterward.

**Clthomps**

quick tip if your good at sculpting and need some nice proffit:

make large robotic limbs (arms, legs, bodies)
make sure they are the right size for an ork, with a variation of gun arms and CCW arms, im sure you will make a nice proffit from it

::takes notes:: hmmmm........ How much would someone pay for some resin "Large Killer Robot" kits?

**whatwhat**

Platuan4th wrote:
whatwhat wrote:If he's not doing anything illegal their only way of solving it would be by sending round the company mafia or paying him off. The former is highly unlikely and the later means he wins anyway.

Heh. Ever hear of a Company called Dream Forge?

Wasn't doing anything illegal or even mentioning anything made, written, or produced by GW, but because they were producing something(Leviathans) that could maybe possible in some way perhaps be confused with something that they(GW) maybe perhaps one day possibly at some point in the unforeseeable future could produce through Forge World for 4 times the price(Warlord Titans), they didn't just send around the "corporate mafia", they unceremoniously sent them a cease and desist letter perhaps threatening a copyright lawsuit that GW probably wouldn't win, but would definitely be dragged on long enough to put Dream Forge into bankruptcy and out of business.

GW not only does it, but they're willing to do it at the drop of the hat rather than pay some one off.

Actually, as others have pointed out Dream Forge were in breach or at least couldn't be sure they would win a legal case. And even if they weren't there are legalities protecting people in such a case where they could make a claim for damages against gw if the result of the case proved they were not in violation.

**Platuan4th**

whatwhat wrote:And even if they weren't there are legalities protecting people in such a case where they could make a claim for damages against gw if the result of the case proved they were not in violation.

Yet, GW continues to do this, despite these arguably ineffective legalities. Remember, people can sue for anything, regardless of whether they will win or not. In non-class action cases involving companies, the company with more money normally keeps going until the smaller company gives in and the case is dropped. And if GW sued only for the cessation of production, what legalities protect a company that goes bankrupt because of legal fees? I honestly want to know, because I'm failing to find any.

**Clthomps**

I'd find it funny(and a bit tragic) if you just happen to be delayed to the point that you finally offer them only to have the amazing(some of the best ever GW models, IMO) new Dark Eldar Warriors be released right afterward.

That would be ok, I started the project off to make a DE army for myself, money making is hopefully just a side effect.

Now more importantly:

You speak as if you have seen the New DE warriors, if you have, where did you see them, and what do they look like?

**Platuan4th**

Clthomps wrote:You speak as if you have seen the New DE warriors, if you have, where did you see them, and what do they look like?

I can't tell you where I've seen them but I can tell you that the pictures in the big 5th Ed rulebook won't steer you wrong as to an idea of what they'll be like.

**whatwhat**

Platuan4th wrote:
whatwhat wrote:And even if they weren't there are legalities protecting people in such a case where they could make a claim for damages against gw if the result of the case proved they were not in violation.

Yet, GW continues to do this, despite these arguably ineffective legalities. Remember, people can sue for anything, regardless of whether they will win or not. In non-class action cases involving companies, the company with more money normally keeps going until the smaller company gives in and the case is dropped. And if GW sued only for the cessation of production, what legalities protect a company that goes bankrupt because of legal fees? I honestly want to know, because I'm failing to find any.

As I said, they can sue for damages caused by an unsuccessful lawsuit on GW's part.

**ph34r**

It seems like there is demand for greatcoat or female imperial guard models, so why not try making some generic-ish models like that?

**Platuan4th**

whatwhat wrote:As I said, they can sue for damages caused by an unsuccessful lawsuit on GW's part.

Your answer for going bankrupt during a courtcase is honestly to turn around and spend more money to try to get money?

**whatwhat**

Platuan4th wrote:
whatwhat wrote:As I said, they can sue for damages caused by an unsuccessful lawsuit on GW's part.

Your answer for going bankrupt during a courtcase is honestly to turn around and spend more money to try to get money?

Counter sueing someone for damages caused by unsuccessful legal action is not the most unheard of thing in the world you know, it is in fact, fairly common.

Platuan4th wrote:When you get into the real world, you'll be able to see this.

**Platuan4th**

whatwhat wrote:
Platuan4th wrote:
whatwhat wrote:As I said, they can sue for damages caused by an unsuccessful lawsuit on GW's part.

Your answer for going bankrupt during a courtcase is honestly to turn around and spend more money to try to get money?

Counter sueing someone for damages caused by unsuccessful legal action is not the most unheard of thing in the world you know, it is in fact, fairly common.

It's not about the counter-suing(that's a different symptom to what's wrong with the world), it's about the suddenly bankrupt company having the money to counter-sue in the first place.

That said, my original point was not about the case itself going to court, it's about how most small companies will comply because they more fear going bankrupt in the ensuing threatened case than the loss of a few items to sell. Ultimately, it's we the buyers that lose out, not either company.

**Janthkin**

whatwhat wrote:
Platuan4th wrote:
whatwhat wrote:As I said, they can sue for damages caused by an unsuccessful lawsuit on GW's part.

Your answer for going bankrupt during a courtcase is honestly to turn around and spend more money to try to get money?

Counter sueing someone for damages caused by unsuccessful legal action is not the most unheard of thing in the world you know, it is in fact, fairly common.

Depends ENTIRELY on the country you are in. In the US, each party pays its own legal fees, and there are only a few, narrowly-defined situations where you can seek to recover your legal fees from your opponent.

**Platuan4th**

Janthkin wrote:
whatwhat wrote:
Platuan4th wrote:
whatwhat wrote:As I said, they can sue for damages caused by an unsuccessful lawsuit on GW's part.

Your answer for going bankrupt during a courtcase is honestly to turn around and spend more money to try to get money?

Counter sueing someone for damages caused by unsuccessful legal action is not the most unheard of thing in the world you know, it is in fact, fairly common.

Depends ENTIRELY on the country you are in. In the US, each party pays its own legal fees, and there are only a few, narrowly-defined situations where you can seek to recover your legal fees from your opponent.

Better put than my rebuttal, thank you.

**whatwhat**

Platuan4th wrote:It's not about the counter-suing(that's a different symptom to what's wrong with the world).

Actually it was about that, that was my point, the one which you disagreed with.

Janthkin wrote:Depends ENTIRELY on the country you are in. In the US, each party pays its own legal fees, and there are only a few, narrowly-defined situations where you can seek to recover your legal fees from your opponent.

Well where I'm from a situation where a larger corporation is seen to be bullying their smaller competition is certainly a situation on which to do it.

Platuan4th wrote:Better put than my rebuttal, thank you.

Also nothing like your "rebuttal."

**Janthkin**

Platuan4th wrote:
Janthkin wrote:
whatwhat wrote:
Platuan4th wrote:
whatwhat wrote:As I said, they can sue for damages caused by an unsuccessful lawsuit on GW's part.

Your answer for going bankrupt during a courtcase is honestly to turn around and spend more money to try to get money?

Counter sueing someone for damages caused by unsuccessful legal action is not the most unheard of thing in the world you know, it is in fact, fairly common.

Depends ENTIRELY on the country you are in. In the US, each party pays its own legal fees, and there are only a few, narrowly-defined situations where you can seek to recover your legal fees from your opponent.

Better put than my rebuttal, thank you.

No worries. Check your PM for my bill.

**Nurglitch**

I think Wargames Factory is in the market to rent their plastic-figure-making machinery.

**Platuan4th**

whatwhat wrote:
Platuan4th wrote:It's not about the counter-suing(that's a different symptom to what's wrong with the world).

Actually it was about that, that was my point, the one which you disagreed with.

Sorry, but actually reread my post:

Your answer for going bankrupt during a courtcase is honestly to turn around and spend more money to try to get money?

As you can see with a little more critical reading(the bold parts are the important parts), what I'm saying is that I find it a bit incredulous for a now bankrupt company to suddenly turn around counter-sue, since it doesn't have the money to pay for the legal fees to counter-sue. Hence, my post isn't about the counter-suing, but more the company having that money.

Janthkin's post supports my point(which you obviously missed) by putting it in the form of actual legal speak and not a rhetorical, incredulous question.

**whatwhat**

Platuan4th wrote:
whatwhat wrote:
Platuan4th wrote:It's not about the counter-suing(that's a different symptom to what's wrong with the world).

Actually it was about that, that was my point, the one which you disagreed with.

Sorry, but actually reread my post:

Your answer for going bankrupt during a courtcase is honestly to turn around and spend more money to try to get money?

As you can see with a little more critical reading(the bold parts are the important parts), what I'm saying is that I find it a bit incredulous for a now bankrupt company to suddenly turn around counter-sue, since it doesn't have the money to pay for the legal fees to counter-sue. Hence, my post isn't about the counter-suing, but more the company having that money.

As I recall the theoretical bankruptcy situation was something you added and is not an inevitable situation should GW take offensive legal action against another company. It would be fairly "incredulous" as you put it for a company to declare bankrupcy when it feels it has a good case for counter sueing.

**Janthkin**

whatwhat wrote:
Well where I'm from a situation where a larger corporation is seen to be bullying their smaller competition is certainly a situation on which to do it.

Perceived fairness of the overall case is almost irrelevant over here. Most scenarios which allow one party to attempt to recover attorney's fees are for fairly specific legal situations: for example, one party failed to turn over documents when required to do so (in violation of specific court rules).

While there are rules covering "nuisance" lawsuits, I have yet to see an actual case where GW acted without at least an arguable position.

(But, as always, none of the above should be construed as legal advice. Get your own damn lawyer in your own jurisdiction.)

**whatwhat**

Janthkin wrote:
whatwhat wrote:
Well where I'm from a situation where a larger corporation is seen to be bullying their smaller competition is certainly a situation on which to do it.

Perceived fairness of the overall case is almost irrelevant over here. Most scenarios which allow one party to attempt to recover attorney's fees are for fairly specific legal situations: for example, one party failed to turn over documents when required to do so (in violation of specific court rules).

While there are rules covering "nuisance" lawsuits, I have yet to see an actual case where GW acted without at least an arguable position.

(But, as always, none of the above should be construed as legal advice. Get your own damn lawyer in your own jurisdiction.)

I was more refering to a lawsuit than your first point, yes. + I'm not referring specifically to GW. and Platuan4th brought up the theoretical situation that GW were without "at least an arguable position."

And yes I agree the OP should look into this further before taking any of this thread down as precise fact.

**Platuan4th**

whatwhat wrote:As I recall the theoretical bankruptcy situation was something you added and is not an inevitable situation should GW take offensive legal action against another company.

Yes I added that, as history of such cases(large corporation vs. small business) shows that said large corporation is prone to drag out the case for years regardless of outcome in an effort to strain the pockets of said small business to get them to settle or fold to the large corporation. Many small businesses have gone bankrupt because of this. GW uses legal threats for this same reason, and most opponents cave for fear of bankruptcy in such a case.

Is it inevitable? No, but it tends to be the outcome when such cases do happen, so as a hypothetical, it is relevant to the conversation.

**whatwhat**

Platuan4th wrote:Yes I added that, as history of such cases(large corporation vs. small business) shows that said large corporation is prone to drag out the case for years regardless of outcome in an effort to strain the pockets of said small business to get them to settle or fold to the large corporation. GW uses legal threats for this same reason, and most opponents cave for fear of bankruptcy in such a case.

Is it inevitable? No, but it tends to be the outcome when such cases do happen, so as a hypothetical, it is relevant to the conversation.

my apologies I added more to my answer since your post...

whatwhat wrote:As I recall the theoretical bankruptcy situation was something you added and is not an inevitable situation should GW take offensive legal action against another company. It would be fairly "incredulous" as you put it for a company to declare bankrupcy when it feels it has a good case for counter sueing.

**Platuan4th**

whatwhat wrote:It would be fairly "incredulous" as you put it for a company to declare bankrupcy when it feels it has a good case for counter sueing.

**whatwhat**

Platuan4th wrote:
whatwhat wrote:It would be fairly "incredulous" as you put it for a company to declare bankrupcy when it feels it has a good case for counter sueing.

Yes, I do see your point(and actually agree with it), but the options when you run out of money is either fold, close, or declare bankruptcy. Bankruptcy tends to be the preferred option as that way the company has enough to continue day to day operations until they get back on their feet.

As I said, I put this is all out there as a hypothetical, as GW has yet to actually be challenged on their challenges, just complied with.

So basically we've come away from me defending my response to nurgleboy77 and we're now talking about something else. Well please continue.

I on the other hand shall take my leave and get my squires to sound the victory horns as we march towards the sunset.

**Platuan4th**

whatwhat wrote: and Platuan4th brought up the theoretical situation that GW were without "at least an arguable position."

I did no such thing. I brought up a hypothetical situation in which GW doesn't care about the results of a legal case, only the results of getting what they want. Big difference(GW wouldn't threaten the case to begin with if they didn't have an arguable position)

**whatwhat**

Now, now. I can't be heroicly wandering off into the sunset if your speaking all over the credit sequence.

Platuan4th wrote: they unceremoniously sent them a cease and desist letter perhaps threatening a copyright lawsuit that GW probably wouldn't win, but would definitely be dragged on long enough to put Dream Forge into bankruptcy and out of business.

I bleieve we then took it further and sugested wht would happen were a lawsuit actually undertaken.

**Platuan4th**

whatwhat wrote:Now, now. I can't be heroicly wandering off into the sunset if your speaking all over the credit sequence.

Platuan4th wrote: they unceremoniously sent them a cease and desist letter perhaps threatening a copyright lawsuit that GW probably wouldn't win, but would definitely be dragged on long enough to put Dream Forge into bankruptcy and out of business.

I bleieve we then took it further and sugested wht would happen were a lawsuit actually undertaken.

Ah, but as was pointed out, that was a situation(the cease and desist letter actually happened, the owners of Dream forge used to post here) in which GW had an arguable position. Nor was it hypothetical.

**whatwhat**

As was said by others and myself, Dream Forge were in breach or at least GW had considerable case there. The only reason the argument was caried on was because you upheld that a case where an "arguable position" wasn't evident was still possible. Otherwise you completely misread the first part of my intitial post...

whatwhat wrote:If he's not doing anything illegal their only way of solving it would be by sending round the company mafia or paying him off. The former is highly unlikely and the later means he wins anyway.

To the sunset squires.

**Platuan4th**

We're arguing in circles now, so we'll agree to disagree and drop it.

**whatwhat**

I would, unfortunately my office has already declared victory over this matter. If this is not to your likening however, perhaps you would like to consider legal action.