Anal fools and small models...

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**George Spiggott**

As the owner of a Squat army I can empathise with your position but as others have said Tinboys would more closely represent Cyborks than killer kans, which are amply represented by smaller two arm Rogue Trader era Dreadnoughts.

**grizgrin**

TR: I think you had a very mature and reasoned approach to the idiot. Kudos for not telling the mental midget that he was indeed a mental midget.

**Frazzled**

Trench-Raider wrote:First the background..
Space Orks have a special place in my heart. This is primarily because they were my first 40k army. The very first 40k figures that I ever purchased and painted was a squad of the old Kev Adams one piece casting ork models packaged in one of those horrible old "blister boxes". Also, the three RT era Ork books are amongst the finest and amusing 40k fluff that has been ever written by GW. My ork army is probably the most "pure" of all my armies, being 100% made up of older models. The basic troops themselves are a mix of the one piece Kev Adams sculpts and the original multi-part plastic Ork models from circa 1990. The rest of the army is of similar date and I take pride in the fact that I have not bought anything new for the army since 1994 or 95. (although those new "loota" models are admittedly tempting) For the longest time my Orks were my primary army for 40k, although they have not gotten much play of late. But with the advent of the new horribly effective Ork codex, I decided to blow the dust off the orks and give them a little exercise.

But the problem is that my Orks were my first 40k army. They come from an era in which my current painting style was in it's infancy and they look it. They quite simply have not aged well. I'm no top flight painter, but I simply do not like showing up in public to play with poorly painted models. So over the last couple of weeks I've been updating/repairing my Orks. The metal models have been stripped and the plastic models over-sprayed with primer. The result has been pretty satisfactory and I'm well along with it. This last Friday I took what I had done to our weekly "Old Fogey 40k Night" at one of the local stores for a test drive. I lost, mostly because the entire army and my best options are not done yet, but I enjoyed playing the "boyz" again. But here is were I get to the irritating part of my tale.

I don't know if it's my winning personality or what, but I seem to run into more than my fair share of anal retentive fools, drooling GW yes men, WYSIWYG fetishists, and other bufoons. Anyway, during Friday's game one of the bystanders made some comments about my army. He commented on how small the models in the army were and how that could be considered "exploitive" under the new line of sight rules. He even went so far as to say something along the lines of "I would have a real problem with having to face your army in a tournament!"

It is 100% true that my Space Ork models are small by today's standards. (the primary reason I probably won't add those loota models to the mix) The basic orks in the army are a head smaller than today's burly boyz and the fact that many are scupted in a hunched over ape like pose makes it even worse. The nobs and other character models are all only slightly (if at all) larger than the basic orks and are still (except for my shokk attakk gun, which I put on a larger base to keep it from falling over) on their original small round bases. I have one of the original ork battle wagon models and it's half the size of a current battlewagon kit. In fact it's closer to the size of the current trukk model.
http://www.solegends.com/citcat911/c...tlewagon-h.htm
The worst offender (as stated by the clown in question) was my "killa kans". You see I have a number of the old ork "Tin boy" or robot models.
http://www.solegends.com/citcat911/c...entshunz-h.htm
I thought these would make great "counts as" stand ins for killa kans and I mounted them on large round bases so that they would not be confused for infantry models. They are about the size of normal infantry models, and the "squat" model is even smaller.

Well, as is my way, I was polite with this fool but dismissed his comments and he soon walked off. I have no plans on ceasing using these older models any time soon.

But I am curious what the online 40k community thinks about this issue.

TR

If they are WYSIWYG then absolutely everyone can kiss it (but I mean that in the nicest way possible

).

If anyone has an issue - be sure to point out 1) its WYSIWYG; 2) there's no limit to current models; 3) point out how many models in your list are older than they are, or if need be, their parents are

**Frazzled**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Not being rude, but nice as the models not be, in the capacity of Killakans, do they not look, well a little daft? They are awfully small after all.

As for Tournies, I think your army probably would get pulled, as there is no real reason for you to use such mis-scaled models. Whether or not there is an intention to abuse rules or whatever would be largely irrelevant.

They are legal MDG. As long as they have appropriate bases that are completely utterly legal just like beakie marines and RT era Dreadnoughts.

Frankly if you went to a tourney and they did pull your list you are so much better off. That would have been hours of your life you would never have gotten back playing in an utterly craptacular tournament which would surely have sucked.

EDIT: Looking back, although disagreeing on the orks that are merely older versions of current orks, I am in agreement with Polonius/MDG on the tinboys. They are strictly counts as for Killa kans. Thats the only ones I'd have difficulties with. If its an issue for normal gaming have some regular kills cans, or have the minis holding a pole or something at the height of a current Kan. maeasure everything from that point, which would be fair. In a tournament, have substitute models for them.

**Grot 6**

I am on the play it like you stole the ride.
Orks is orks!!!

1. Its your army. You put it together, you are using GW orks, and the game is what it is. He who has the models has the army. Tell the snotlings to stay in the background, or get thier army to the table before they comment on you and your opponents game.
2. GW made the models , what, up to about 30-32mm, by now? SO WHAT. WYSIWYG works both ways and whats good for the goose is good for the gander, as long as you are playing it , you and your opponent are the only ones that really matter. As for exploited? Give me a break! That is about as weak an argument you can gaff someone about.

3. I too have a RT era army and it is one of my favorites, along with my other old stuff, it will have its place as a standard of how fun the game can be when you just had the basics, and all of the flash in the pan craptastic changes ruining the orks still won't compair to that chart with the random results for the meks weapons, or that Shock attack gun.

4. Don't worry about those whippersnappers! Back in MY day, we played with lead, and painted it, too!

**Polonius**

Here's the problem I have. It's not that the Tinboys are being used at all, obviously every old model can and should still be used as something. It's stretching what they are beyond the most obvious "counts-as." Tin boys are infantry sized models, armed with what look like sluggas and choppas. Hardboys, Nobs, Cyborks, or even Meganobs all make sense for that model. An AV 11 vehicle with DCCW and a big shoota? Not as immediate.

Take the example of the old Imperial Robots. As they are all old models with no current rules, I have to make them fit somewhere. They're roughly the size/shape of old sentinels, so I could use them as those. I could use them as Ogryn, and I doubt anybody would care. If I said they were each a Leman Russ Battle tank, I think people would object. Is this a bit of a silly example? Yes, but it illustrates my point, which is that if you put them down on the table and asked a person "what unit do you think these count as" how many would guess Kans?

Look, I think 80% of people are going to have zero problem with it, I think another 15% are going to think it's a little lousy but will roll with it, but I think there is going to be some people that really object to it, and I don't think they're entirely wrong. They're way too small, not armed appropriately and look way too much like infantry.

**George Spiggott**

The figure on the right is clearly the most appropriate counts as killer Kan model. If you have any of these Rogue Trader two armed Dreadnoughts what would you field them as if Tinboys are Killer Kans?

Tinboys would definately be best fielded as Ardboys (mixed in with the other boys) or Cyborks.

What, if anything, are you using as Mega-armour as it didn't exist in Rogue Trader. I'm assuming you're using Power armoured Orks as Ardboys

**George Spiggott**

I often used Zoats on 40mm round bases as Ogryns.

**dietrich**

TLoS works both ways, so the Tinboyz have advantages and disadvantages in play. It depends what you do with them. If they hide behind a trukk to get into combat - that's pretty cheap. If you're trying to use them to screen a unit of boyz - well, good luck.

Keep in mind, that the base size has no effect for a vehicle. It helps make them stand out, but you don't (iirc) measure anything to/from the base, just to/from the hull.

I think the Tinboyz aren't a suitable 'count as', and as others have said, using them as meganobz, nobz w/ cybork bodes - nobz in boyz mobs even.

**Matt Varnish**

I feel your pain, I run a converted Squat army, so each trooper is half as tall as a cadian, my converted sentinels are abot as tall as a mega armored ork.
My tanks are also really low to the ground, they are leman russ hulls on chimera track sections, and they have no turrets, the gun comes out of the hull (where the lascannon normally goes) As such, immobilised results REALLY hurt my tanks

Here's what I do. I have ONE regular guardsmen model, ONE regular sentinel model, etc spray painted black.
If any slow decides to pull any BS about how my models are too small, I substitute my placeholder in just so he can get his shot in. Where I play, its a good environment, but for tourneys I bring them in my case.

As a shooting army, its more of a disadvantage to me to have them short for TLOS, but for a HtH army like Orks or Nids, you should maybe consider having one or two guys as placeholders.

OR make their bases taller by supergluing a metal 1 inch washer to the base. take a round base into home despot, you'll find that there is one that fits EXACTLY and is even canted in like the base sides. I use these for pesky top heavy genestealers and hormagaunts, but they could work for you, plus they are cheap.

BTW My all 1st Ed Crimson Fists battlecompany would LOVE to fight a 1st ed Ork army

Good luck man.

**Flagg07**

Congrats on the retro orks. I've been slowly collecting 2nd edition mad boys for a few years now. I think everyone's in agreement that your boys are good to go.

I'd gladly play your force as is in a friendly game, but in a tourney, leave the Tin Kans at home.

**Trench-Raider**

Well, well. My little thread seems to have sparked some interest and healthy debate. That's always a good thing. Think what you want of ol' Trenchie, but you have to admit he makes you think on occasion and almost always sparks conversation.

Anyway, let me throw out two points on the Tinboy/killa kan issue that might clarify things a bit and/or add to the discussion.

-Granted there are probably better "counts as" options for the Tinboy models. I particularly like the meganob option that several people have brought up. However I'm a bit limited in my choices due to the small number of these models I have. As it stands right now, I only own four tinboy models: two of the Eldar ones and one each of the Squat and Marine parodies. This limits my options, and as I want to showcase these uniuque models rather than just mix them into a unit this makes most more "acceptable" options out of play. Granted, I could always just throw them on my friend's centrafuge caster and make all I need, but that raises a whole other issue, doesn't it?

-Something that I failed to bring up earlier is that I didn't just rebase the models on larger bases. Due to not wanting to remove the slotta tab, I mounted the small base on top of the larger base and flocked over them both. The result is a model that is a bit larger than some might think.

Honestly, I think some here are underestimating the size of the tinboy model. So here is a quick photo I took of an up-based tinboy along side a typical plastic ork model from my army. They don't look so similar in size after all, do they? Does this change anyone's views?

TR

**JohnHwangDD**

Nope. Counts as Cybork.

**George Spiggott**

Trench-Raider wrote:Honestly, I think some here are underestimating the size of the tinboy model. So here is a quick photo I took of an up-based tinboy along side a typical plastic ork model from my army. They don't look so similar in size after all, do they? Does this change anyone's views?

I think by using the Eldar Tinboy you're trying to mislead us, the Marine and Squat (of which I own two) Tinboys are much smaller. Meganobs and Nobs both have a mob size of 3-10 so your Tinboys will slip in nicely there and still be a focal point in the army.

Tinboys make poor substitutes for Killa Kans especially when suitable Rogue Trader period models already exist.

**Commissar Molotov**

Great figures - and I completely support you using your old plastic orkses. I still use mine, although I use the heavy plasma guns as "rokkit launchers" instead...

But I've got to agree with the others about the Tinboys. They'd be much more appropriate as Cyborks or somesuch.

**Trench-Raider**

I think by using the Eldar Tinboy you're trying to mislead us,

I must say that being accused of deliberate deception is pretty annoying. Certainly it's not the worst thing someone has said about me over the years, but the fact remains it's annoying.

TR

**Valhallan42nd**

whatwhat wrote:On a related side note. True line of sight is about the stupidest addition to 40k there has ever been, the only game gw has produced which TLOS was fair was inquisitor, a game almost twice the scale.

Look heres my land raider, which can hold ten space marines in it...supposedly...maybe...if they were still in their sprue. Apart from that it's perfect scale for tlos...right?

10 marines will fit in a land raider, no problem. Unless for some reason they have their feet welded to a giant manhole cover.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Oh, regarding the post Frazzled quoted, I was meaning the Tinboyz only.

My bad for not making it terribly clear!

**holden88**

A friend of mine used to come over with his mix of old and new Ork firgures. Most of the old stuff is cool and nostalgic but some of the models were just too out of scale. He had a bunch of these old Ork wartrakks. The ones that looked like grot mopeds and could gain cover behind a signpost. He went on claiming that these were still legal models and such but we eventually just embarrased him enough that he stopped using them. Not so much that they were a huge abuse of the LOS rules (they kinda were) but more so because they looked rather silly on the table (especially mixed in squadrons with current GorkaMorka style wartrakks).

I'd have to agree that the Tinboyz look rather weedy and small to be considered Killa Kans. The current Killa Kan models are the same size as the 2nd edition era Ork Dreadnought (which are way bigger than the Tinboyz. In fact I have an old Dread here with two of the new Killa Kans: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/221569.page#428642 (Near the bottom of thread).

**Neil**

I'll just echo the sentiments of everyone both here and on Warseer, I don't have a problem with using old models (half my Marines and Eldar are RT era), but the tin boys as killa cans are a no-no. They are too small, full stop. Upbased like you've done them, I'd accept them as Cybork Nobs or Meganobs.

**Pariah Press**

holden88 wrote:A friend of mine used to come over with his mix of old and new Ork firgures. Most of the old stuff is cool and nostalgic but some of the models were just too out of scale. He had a bunch of these old Ork wartrakks. The ones that looked like grot mopeds and could gain cover behind a signpost. He went on claiming that these were still legal models and such but we eventually just embarrased him enough that he stopped using them. Not so much that they were a huge abuse of the LOS rules (they kinda were) but more so because they looked rather silly on the table (especially mixed in squadrons with current GorkaMorka style wartrakks).

You're a very bad man.

**BigToof**

Pariah Press wrote:
holden88 wrote:A friend of mine used to come over with his mix of old and new Ork firgures. Most of the old stuff is cool and nostalgic but some of the models were just too out of scale. He had a bunch of these old Ork wartrakks. The ones that looked like grot mopeds and could gain cover behind a signpost. He went on claiming that these were still legal models and such but we eventually just embarrased him enough that he stopped using them. Not so much that they were a huge abuse of the LOS rules (they kinda were) but more so because they looked rather silly on the table (especially mixed in squadrons with current GorkaMorka style wartrakks).

You're a very bad man.

Agreed.

Still think tin boyz != Killa Kanz, sorry Trenchie!

**Tierlieb**

dietrich wrote:TLoS works both ways, so the Tinboyz have advantages and disadvantages in play. It depends what you do with them. If they hide behind a trukk to get into combat - that's pretty cheap. If you're trying to use them to screen a unit of boyz - well, good luck.

Basically right. But: Information asymmetry. Meaning: You can use your advantages (taking cover) while working around your disadvantages (not trying to give cover at all). That's an advantage.

**Frazzled**

Trench-Raider wrote:Well, well. My little thread seems to have sparked some interest and healthy debate. That's always a good thing. Think what you want of ol' Trenchie, but you have to admit he makes you think on occasion and almost always sparks conversation.

Anyway, let me throw out two points on the Tinboy/killa kan issue that might clarify things a bit and/or add to the discussion.

-Granted there are probably better "counts as" options for the Tinboy models. I particularly like the meganob option that several people have brought up. However I'm a bit limited in my choices due to the small number of these models I have. As it stands right now, I only own four tinboy models: two of the Eldar ones and one each of the Squat and Marine parodies. This limits my options, and as I want to showcase these uniuque models rather than just mix them into a unit this makes most more "acceptable" options out of play. Granted, I could always just throw them on my friend's centrafuge caster and make all I need, but that raises a whole other issue, doesn't it?

-Something that I failed to bring up earlier is that I didn't just rebase the models on larger bases. Due to not wanting to remove the slotta tab, I mounted the small base on top of the larger base and flocked over them both. The result is a model that is a bit larger than some might think.

Honestly, I think some here are underestimating the size of the tinboy model. So here is a quick photo I took of an up-based tinboy along side a typical plastic ork model from my army. They don't look so similar in size after all, do they? Does this change anyone's views?

TR

Oh man, I have like 50 of those guys on the left. Thought they were great minis at the time. (Carol Burnett tuning up) "Memories!..."

but no that doesn't change it. They really are too out of scale and not representative of Killa Kans. If you want to show off those minis include them in your boss's retinue, use them as objective markers, or something of that nature. A Final option could be putting several on a larger base, and having that count as one Kan (with others), or some sort of ranged unit.