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Lanrak wrote:Is the 'fantasy' element in 40k because Rogue Trader used Warhammer 3rd ed rules and basic races.
Or would 40k still be sci fantasy with a different rule set?(A more straight forward simulation type rule set.)

Yes, and probably.

If 40k had simulation rules at their core, you're still generating stats and exceptions for Fantasy-based armies and effects.

The problem with simulation rules is that a lot of 40k doen't tie to the real world as we currently understand it. That is, simulation of psykers, warp travel, fungal humanoids, hive nodes, and psychoplastic isn't something that we can do with any sense of realism. We can make it pseudo-realistic within the context of the rest of the simulation, a la The Matrix, but that's as far as it goes.

So presuming that the above fantasy elements can be translated, then the core gameplay mechanics wouldn't matter.

Which is why GW cares less about rules than minis or Fluff.

I think Lanrak just hit the nail on the head, albeit through a doublebackflip and he happened to dislodge a precariously balanced Hammer...

The difference lies in the fact that the Games produced by Games Workshop are hobby games.

One of their central tenants is to explore for yourself. Look at the 40k rulebook. Aside from the rules, it has a fairly large section on the Hobby, from various methods of collecting an army, to converting models, setting up unique scenarios (not missions, but I'll come on to that) and so on.

And Scenarios are really where the crux of the matter lies. Look at the Imperial Armour books from Taros onwards. Quite apart from giving rules for the latest and shootiest Forgeworld offerings, it gives you a complete scenario based campaign to play through, as well as a semi historical review of what 'really' happened. This to me, is the pinnacle of what games are about.

Never mind the simplistic 'balanced' missions. Disregard the Force Organisation Chart. Just go and buy whichever models tickle your fancy. Then, when you and your friends feel you have enough of a collection, write out set piece games. The forces don't have to be equal, nor do the mission parameters. As long as the scenario is fun to play, does it really matter just how even the chance of winning is? History is replete with against the odds victories, from Agincourt to more modern equivalents.

The books, and the rules, are there as a framework. The background is relatively set, in so far as the major movers and shakers of the Galactic stage are firmly established....but thats just a fraction of the Galaxy covered. It is a mind bogglingly large place to play in. And when you take into account Warpstorms etc, anything is literally possible. The Fallen Dark Angels were hurled through space and time. Why not other armies and races? Even the Tau, nominally limited to a tiny corner of the Galaxy could, through this method, end up anywhere, and more importantly, anywhen. Perhaps a colonisation fleet caught the cusp of a Warpstorm when 'bouncing' through the warp, and ended up 5,000 years in the past, millions of light years off course.

In my opinion, the more you worry about the published rules, and whether or not they are balanced, realistic, fair etc, the more you are missing out on. As I mentioned earlier, the rules are, and were always intended, as a loose framework. Take a look at them. All they tell us, if one took a sideways look, is that Marines are tough, Lascannon tear through armour, and Orks are numerous. Don't feel there is enough variation? Right your own rules and play them with your friends. Embrace the hobby oriented side, and the rest comes with you.

40k is most definately sci fantasy. Though it does indeed have quite a few aspects that make parts of the universe very sci-fi oriented. The Tau for instance have already been named. The inquisition is like something right out of Orwell or a totalitarian state except the rules are driven by religion instead of other factors. There are still massive moral dilemas, my favorite being from the Tyranid codex. "Some question your right to sentance a billion people to death. Those who understand realise you have no right to let them live."