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tomlowbridge wrote:no, swordmaster will kick anyones butts becasue of ASF and great weapons help cut vamps to pieces

Chariots handle swordmasters very well. Typically strength 5-6 and many come or can be upgraded to be considered scythed and do d6+1 hits on the charge. Wounding on a 2+ with no armor save, elf go squish. Also, you can often put a hero on the chariot, hit the unit and issue a challenge. If your opponent is dumb enough to accept all the impact hits hit the champion (I believe), then the champion attacks, followed by your hero. More than likely the impact hits will have rendered him into a paste and you will get massive combat resolution from overkill+wounds.
Don't get me wrong, Swordmasters are powerful against other rank and file, but they do have their weaknesses and anyone saying they can kick anyone's butt has never had a boar chariot or similar unit smash them.

Impact hits always go against the unit and are distributed like shooting. Also the impact hits are done before the challenge is issued. Impact hits are great against Elves, but elves also have a way to beat them. Eagles and bolt throwers Eagles will get the charge taking away the all important impact hits and can typically do enough damage to let the Bolt Throwers finish it off. A good player will never let the chariot hit the Swordmasters, or any other elf unit for that matter. the BEST way to deal with SwordMasters is to SHOOT them. toughness 3 with only a 5+ save means Crossbows and Handgunns will tear them apart!!

Forget shooting them beat em at their own game for instance ill give you two. Black guard with kouran and the banner of hag graf. black guard with their int 6 means they'll rip HE to pieaces and kouran with three str 6 attacks will beat those pesky dragon princes to mush. also secret surprises IE assasins are very killy and cheap two i like running two of them both with runes of khain and different gifts to make em uber nasty. Their WS 9 and int 10 and always strikes first and rerolls makes them something for every general playing against DE to be weary. So typically beat them at their own game. other armies have seer volume they can use to smother HE.

Thus why I said before that Phoenix guard are the better choice. They have an Initiative of 6 as well, are str 4 with the weapon and have a 4+ ward. they don't die as easy and have a better initiative so have a better chance of going first against other ASF troops. I the case you gave above with the black guard, we would dice off. BUt Typically, you should shoot them because if you get into combat you are risking a lot, especially if I get Vauls Unmaking off on your unit and get rid of your pesky ASF banner or other dreaded magic Item.

Actally you goes by who charges 1st when int and asf come into play for instance black guard charge phoenix guard the black guard will go first because they charged and vice versa when dealing with the same int. now for prolonged combat it'll go by whom won combat in the last will go first in the second. shooting them is a option heck i intend to make it a standard build for my DE where they get 75 shots a round which is nothing to laugh at.

Nope, ASF says initiative, not charging. It's an oddity of the rule.

And why waste DE melee on swordmasters when repeater crossbows eviscerate them?

As for VC, unless you build soft, HEs shouldn't be too tough regardless of how many SMs they field!

No, read the FAQ. It always goes in Initiative order if both have ASF.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2220025_Warhammer_FAQ_part2_Feb_2009

Pg. 6 right hand column.

I don't understand why GW put that on a FAQ

It also says that in the main rulebook

Im talking about if the black guard have the banner of hag graf which gives them ASF. trust me its never a waste giveing it to the black guard and watching them shred HE. Black guard and phonix guard have the same int of 6 and if both have ASF it goes by who charged. besides assassins have int 10 so they "will" always go first and do the dirty work. I think you guys misunderstood what i was trying to get at when i was talking about the whole black guard vs HE thing.

nieto666 wrote:Black guard and phonix guard have the same int of 6 and if both have ASF it goes by who charged.

If they both have ASF and the same initiative charging has nothing to do with it. You roll a d6, highest goes first.

Yes the assassin will go first because of initiative 10 and ASF

Adding something more constructive, i do like your ideas with Black Guard and the Hag Banner

No ur right they did nerf it damn!! Oh well its not like i play against alot of HE anways. Thnx by the way ive heard of alot DE players doing this against HE so they can get some good kills in

Budda 09 wrote:nice, vampire counts can be powerful if you use them in the right ways

Uh, as in just about every way? Let's see... yes, they rock in Magic. Yes, they rock in HtH. Yes, they have ethereal units that can't be shot very easily. Yes, they have very fast units that hit very hard. Yes, they never run away, and largely ignore the deleterious effects of the psychology rules. Hmmm, basically, they are powerful almost all the time, the whole "use them in the right way" is specious.

In fact, other armies have to specifically build to respond to VC, or will lose. When was the last time you saw a VC army that was "tailered" to fight against a dwarf or empire army?