Movement measurement...

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**Democratus**

Seems like there is a thread of reasoning from the quotes mentioned.

1) Page 3 prohibits measuring unless allowed

2) Page 11 allows measuring distances in the movement phase

3) After measuring you can decide "not to move it at all". This means you have not moved it.

Therefore you are allowed to measure and, having measured, you are not required to move the unit.

Later on (after moving other units) you could move the unit since - by RAW - you have not moved it yet.

**utan**

This doesn't fall into the usual RAW or RAI discussion. It is more of a sportsmanship issue along with such things as good form in dice rolling, counting and handling.

**lambadomy**

To me, this boils down to one thing: how you interpret what "decide not to move at all" means.

I think it means your move starts when you measure, but you don't have to actually move - you can stay still. Measuring is the start of moving, but standing still is an option even if you measured every which way. But that unit counts as "moved"

obviously other people think that that sentence is what allows them to measure without actually doing anything. I think this is wrong - the complete sentence is:

"it is perfectly fine to measure a unit's move in one direction, and then change your mind and decide to move it somewhere else (even the opposite way entirely!) or decide not to move it at all"

This seems to clearly be designed to explain that you don't have to move the direction you measured first. It is not clear in any way that 'decide not to move at all' is anything other than another example of what can happen during the units move. The authors are assuming your move has started, and these are all possible results. Nothing here is permitting you to measure willy-nilly, so the rule on page 3 still takes precedence. You can measure and decide to MOVE in a different way (and one of those MOVES is to not move). You can't measure and decide to go to a different unit and come back.

**Ghaz**

Hollismason wrote:This is a pretty anal argument I mea your in a friendly game with your friend. Dont be so rules whoreish.

This is a forum about discussing the rules. Try to understand that next time. Games have rules. If you agree to a game, then you're agreeing to play by those rules. If you don't want to play by the rules, then go play 'Cowboys and Indians' with the six year olds.

**Beerfiend**

All I can say is, up until this past game, the way I've always understood it was exactly like chess. Unless you actually pick up and physically move a model then take your hand off of them then no movement takes place. I'm not trying to bend the rules in anyway to benefit myself, but this is exactly how I see it with 40k...

Page 3 states that no measurement can take place unless called for. Throughout the movement phase measurement is always called for, therefore page 3 has no meaning here.

Page 11 states that once a "movement" of a unit is made the player must finish that "move" and thus cannot switch to another unit during this without forfeiting the first unit's right to actually finish. Yet no movement takes place period when simply measuring or rolling. It does not state that measurement or rolling are indeed the beginning of movement one way or another. However..

As I said before both shooting and assault phases require a declaration before measurement can even take place. This declaration automatically does in fact mean that you have started something with that unit, because it's part of the sequence, and must therefore finish before moving on. Nowhere in the movement phase does such a thing need to take place, nor is there any sequence period.

Thus I submit to you that the only declaration of movement is actually physically moving a model and once done, has to be finished before moving on.

**Ghaz**

Beerfiend wrote:Page 3 states that no measurement can take place unless called for. Throughout the movement phase measurement is always called for, therefore page 3 has no meaning here.

And again, it does not say that you can measure at any time during the Movement phase. Provide an actual rules quote and page number to back up your claims that it does. You can only measure when your actually moving a model. That is the only time in the Movement phase that the rules allow you to measure.

**dietrich**

The convention is that there is no pre-measuring. If you and your friend want to agree on something different, that's fine, but then extend the courtesy to him. If you go to a tourney, do not expect to pre-measure.

**lambadomy**

Doesn't matter what the shooting and assault phases say. They have different, pre-measuring rules, specifically declaring targets.

Measurement is not "always called for" in the movement phase. You don't have carte blanch to just measure. No where does it say that in the movement rules.

The rules say you do this:

Chose a unit (implicit in the sentence "once a unit has completed its movement, the player selects another and moves that one...")

Move the unit

move on to another unit that hasn't moved and move it

repeat until you've moved everything you want to move.

Units have a distance they can move. 6", 12", etc.

The only place it mentions measuring is saying that it is ok to measure a units move in multiple directions.

It does not say "you can measure all of your units moves in all directions before moving anything". This is the kind of rule that would need to exist to invalidate the rule on page 3. It says "you may measure a units move in one direction, and then change your mind and move in a different direction, or not move at all". No where does it say you can then come back to this unit, or that the measuring being permitted here is not considered part and parcel with the movement of this unit.

Thus I submit to you that measuring is declaration of movement. This is not chess. There is no reason to mention chess.

As a side note here - has anyone ever met anyone who tried to move the way Beerfiend is describing? My judgement of this rule may be clouded by the fact that I've never ever met anyone who doesn't play "choose unit, measure, move, rinse, repeat". Is this common?

**Deathmachine**

Tek wrote:

Oh and guys, it's BGB for 40k. Not BRB.

I was going to say that, and yes you may not measure before moving your only are allowed to measure while moving.

**lambadomy**

As was mentioned, BGB is the 4th edition codex

BRB is the 5th edition codex. It sure is red.

**Kallbrand**

Well, like people already stated, you are not allowed to mesaure anything unless doing something with rules for it. Like moving, wich you are only allowed to do once etc etc.

**coredump**

JourneyPsycheOut wrote:But the the rule on pg. 3 specifically states you're not allowed to measure any distance unless the rules say you can.

Agreed.

So to be able to measure the distance of a move, you have to be in the act of moving that unit.

You made that up. Or can you find a rule that states that measuring is part of movement.

The rules state the opposite, you can measure and *not* move. If measuring is part of movement... how can you measure and not move?

Measuring...seem(s) to be part of the movement of that unit as well, and therefore cannot be done before the previous unit's movement has been fully completed.

It may seem to be... but can you provide a rule that says it is?

I can provide a rule that says I can measure distance before moving.
I can provide a rule that says I can move.
I can provide a rule that shows that measuring is *not* considered moving.

So, to stop this, someone needs to provide a restriction on these legal actions.

**Lordhat**

enmitee wrote:actually no. the 5th ed rule book is RED.

Not mine. It's clearly Grey with red on it.

**lambadomy**

@coredump:

You can't provide a rule that shows measuring is not considered moving.

You can provide the end of one sentence that says you can choose not to move as your move, instead of moving.

Again, "...decide not to move it at all" after you measure is not the same as "this measurement is not considered moving".

you cannot move it AT ALL. As in, period. You measured, and then decided not to move. The end. You now cannot move it at all...not later, not some other time, not after you roll 6 slow and purposefuls and move your daemon prince. AT ALL. Not "right now". AT ALL. Not "maybe after I check this other stuff". AT ALL. That is your only special choice once you've measured - pick somewhere within your move, or declare oh he's not moving. AT ALL.

Please find another rule that allows you to measure and not move and then move something else and then come back and move. This one is obviously not it.

**Hymirl**

coredump wrote:I can provide a rule that says I can measure distance before moving.
I can provide a rule that says I can move.
[bI can provide a rule that shows that measuring is *not* considered moving.[/b]

Actually you can only provide a rule that shows measuring is *not* considered a complusion to move. The last sentence of 'Movement Distance' makes it very clear that once you measure for the unit you can move to where you measured, you can measure to somewhere else and move there, OR you can choose to not move at all.

There is no '4th way' that lets go move another unit and come back later, once you've measured you're limited to a choice off that list. Thats why measuring range is part of the process for moving a unit, and why it is part of the unit's move action.

Lordhat wrote:Not mine. It's clearly Grey with red on it.

Oh, wow, you're so clever aren't you? Its a shame that the fact that the last book being all grey is already called the BGB otherwise we could give his one the same name and there wouldn't be any confusion. Or maybe you already knew that and just wanted to increase your post count without making any worthwhile contribution to the thread...

**Lordhat**

Nah I just wanted to be a smartass. But Seriously I voted for keeping the abbreaviation for the 40k rulebook as BGB, simply because the Fantasy book is SO much more red.

**Augustus**

I have always been an absolute critic of pre measuring in any minaitures game. IMO it goes against the entire concept of playing on a scale modeled board. There are suppose to be unknowns. Otherwise, play a board game, or a gridded map. This is not any comparisson to reality, only an abstraction in games, tabletops are not gridded because there are suppose to be unknowns.

That said, some rules explicitly allow it, and I always play by the rules...

So in 5th edition I was happy and then confused by what seems to me as a complete inconsistency. Premeasuring being explicitly forbidden in one section of the book, and then explicitly defined as permitted during movement for some reason? I consider this a massive failing of 5th edition design paradigm and a glaring inconsistency.

Outside of the order of operations issue and going back to a unit... You can not premeasure in the shooting phase to see if your shuriken cannon is in range at 24 inches... But, in the movement phase of the same turn, you could measure a Waveserpent flank speed move 24 inches and decide not to make it,... essentially checking the exact same range?

Which is it GW? Yes or no.

I agree with the 'friend' in this thread in practice, but by RAW, I think it is completely conflicted with 2 opposite views on the subject.

Good luck.

**Major Malfunction**

Seems pretty clear to me.

You measure a unit to see how far it can move.
After that measure you can decide to move the unit a different direction, or not at all.
You then repeat this sequence with the next unit you pick.

Measuring is followed by movement, or non-movement. As soon as you move to the next unit, the movement for the former unit is done.

**Augustus**

Playing devil's advocate,

...if that were true, wouldn't it have to say measure any directions you wish then move or... "decide not to move it at all for the turn", or somesuch?

coredump wrote:If measuring is part of movement... how can you measure and not move?

I think that is pretty much on the spot.

For the record, I really don't like pre measuring, when I play, by choice, I announce my intentions and measure once, in order. No take backs, no multiple measurement, but I have no illusion, thats by my choice, not what the rules say.

**Orkimedes**

Bleh....you power gamers need to chill out. What's next?? Laser pointers? Oh wait.....

**lambadomy**

Augustus:

I don't get it, still. Why would you interpret "or not move at all" to be anything other than for the turn? What makes you want to read it as "...at this moment". At all is at all. It's very clear.

"if measuring is part of movement...how can you measure and not move?"

Uh, you can't. You can measure and then decide that you're moving 0". But you moved. Thats the whole point of the rule. Your "move" in game is to not move.

**Hymirl**

Lordhat wrote:Nah I just wanted to be a smartass.

Oh, I thought you where just spamming...

Orkimedes wrote:Bleh....you power gamers need to chill out. What's next?? Laser pointers? Oh wait.....

This comment is a bit pointless don't you think? This forum is to answer questions, if the only answers given out was "Yeah, sounds fine..." and "I'd let you do it" then there wouldn't be any point would there? People come here because they want to know what the rule is, not what you want the rule to be and no what rules people make up to play in friendly games.

The fact that some-one answers a question with the right answer doesn't mean that they play all their games exactly to the rules, it means they've given the right answer to the question. If you want to make childish rants about the state of the game and sportsmanship then do it somewhere else instead of spamming up threads.

Uh, you can't. You can measure and then decide that you're moving 0". But you moved. Thats the whole point of the rule. Your "move" in game is to not move.

What he means is that you shouldn't be allowed to measure and then opt not to move, and that being allowed to measure to positions you're not going to gives an unfair advantage compared to how you're supposed to avoid pre-measuring before you do things. In the shooting or assault phase you can't change your mind for example.

Plus of course you're able to abuse the premeasuring fairly easily. For example with bikes, you're able to measure up to 24" with the turboboost option, which can be used to 'accidently' check if you're within 18" of a unit that you'd like to assault later on that turn.

**Augustus**

Exactly.

**lambadomy**

I agree, that the way that measuring for movement is an advantage, and different than shooting/assaulting. Shooting and assaulting will always need to work slightly differently than moving because they involve your opponents units.

I guess they could make the rules be that you have to declare the move and the direction, and then measure to see where you end up. It would be kind of annoying i think to play that way, but it wouldn't be the end of the world.

I know I've used the movement measure to get an idea of ranges for shooting - for example, if I had a winged DP next to a squad of plague marines, I might check to see where the DPs 12 inch move would get him, not because I wanted to move him there but because I wanted to see if the plague marines were going to be in rapid fire range. I don't really see anything wrong with taking advantage of the measuring opportunities given within the rules. Nothing accidental about it.

**coredump**

Actually you can only provide a rule that shows measuring is *not* considered a complusion to move.

You can measure and then decide that you're moving 0". But you moved.

Let me approach from a different angle.

I measure, and then don't move. Can that unit fire heavy weapons?

You can't move and shoot. So if you can shoot, it means you didn't move. If you didn't move, then it means that measuring is *not* moving.

I don't get it, still. Why would you interpret "or not move at all" to be anything other than for the turn?

Because the rules don't say it is for the turn...
It is the same as anything else in the game. I can say "My orks are going to shoot your gaunts", then decide... naw, I don't want to shoot.
then later in the shooting phase decide I *do* want to shoot.

Or I can say my Gaunts will Run, and then move other models, then decide the gaunts will shoot instead. (assuming they haven't Run yet.)

What it is saying, is that just because you measure, doesn't mean you have to move. It is not saying that measuring *is* moving. Nor does it actively restrict you to having to make a 'permanent' decision immediately after measuring.

There are some restrictions, once you start moving, you must finish, once you start shooting, you must finish, etc. But there is nothing that indicates that measuring is part of movement.

**lambadomy**

[edit] nevermind I throw my hands up, you win. "At all" obviously doesn't mean "at all" it means "at all until I feel like it later".

And yes, your heavy weapons can shoot. Thats what the result of "choose not to move at all" would be

now I'm going to go bang my head against a desk a few dozen times.

**Major Malfunction**

Also, for the "I measured but didn't move" camp... if you roll a difficult terrain test and then decide not to move the models, you still count as moving. Not saying this affects other situations, but just gives you an example of when not moving *IS* still considered movement for game purposes.

**Beerfiend**

Lol .. that's the problem mate. It's simply a matter of opinion what "at all" means at this point apparently. You obviously have your opinion, and both me and coredump have ours. At all could mean many things ..

At all for this moment, At all for this turn, or even At all for the rest of the game (obviously this is not the case). Why is it so far fetched that it has multiple meanings simply because YOU interpret it one way differently than another? When I read it, it was obvious to me that this meant not at this moment, does that automatically make you wrong simply because you see it differently than I? Absolutely not .. It's simply a non-specific.

Sometimes I wonder if GW does this on purpose so as to intentionally cause such squabbles ;P

**lambadomy**

Sure, I concede that it could just be meaningless. But "at all" has a definition:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/all

I would feel it would be up to you and coredump to explain why this particular measuring is allowed but doesn't have anything to do with the units move, without using the "at all" sentence. Otherwise there is no reason to append anything to the end of "at all" other than perhaps "until the next movement phase" since, well, thats the next time you actually apply this rule. Otherwise the only way to interpret it is that you never get to move them again - not that the meaning of "at all" gets thrown out the window. You have to justify WHY you think it means "at all until I feel like it again". So far no one has.

**Augustus**

Lambadomy, I played devil's advocate before, but I want to say, I think you are right. There should not be:

Measure unit A, move B, then come back to unit A.

Furthermore, I have seen some players: Move A, Move B, Put A Back.

Even worse.

Im not advocating those things. I just can understand, despite my preconceptions, the rules at least alude to premeasuring being OK, and are, lets say slightly vague? on order of operations.

IMO better would be: move a unit at a time, measuring to a location constitutes a move, and movement can be done in increments, for example move 2 in a direction, look at the board, choose to move the same unit, 2 more, etc to the max move.