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My friend and I got into an argument about this and couldn't really seem to determine definately one way or the other. It's kind of a dumb situation but here goes ..

During the movement phase I measured my flying Daemon Prince's 12 inches to see how far he can make it, not declaring one way or another whether I was going to move him or not. But rather than doing so, I decided to move a unit of troops first, still not having decided whether I wanted to move the DP, or how far during that particular movement phase. My friend then pointed out that I can no longer move the DP as I had already initiated movement with him by making a measurement and moved on to troops. He also stated that on page 3 the rules say no measurements are aloud unless the rules call for it.

On top of that he states that I cannot roll for a single slow and purposeful unit (to get an idea of how far they are going to move), then roll for another another S&P unit (to get an idea once again), or begin movement of another unit, as once I've move to another, or rolled for another, this counts as me ending the first ones movement .. even if no movement of the first unit ever took place. Basically he was stating that rolling and/or measurement in itself is beginning movement and thus has to be fully carried out before moving on.

I see this as absurd and pointed out that throughout the movement phase measurement is always "called for" and that no where in the BRB does it state that measurement during the movement phase is any sort of declaration, nor that any declaration is needed. Rather, simply once you start movement you cannot then switch to another unit and begin their movement, which I had not done seeing as how I didn't even touch the DP. Yet during the shooting and assault phases it does require declarations in order to begin measurement and I would think if they wanted to be that specific with movement they would have. I see this as a good tactic in order to know where you stand and be able to move units that might be in the way of the first you measured.

Am I wrong to assume all of this? We've been playing for quite some time and for some reason this has never come up, I guess we generally don't generally make such measurements (and rolls) but it would be quite nice to know that you can.


On a completely unrelated note, I'm also curious about Marneus Calgar's power weapon - does the fact that he has an extra attack due to having a 2 matching power fists confer over to his attacks when using his power weapon instead of his fists?

Thanks in advance to either question.

I feel like your friend was right in this situation. I don't have the BRB front and center, but I'm pretty sure it says something to the effect of, pick a unit, complete his movement, then finish up (you make reference to that same effect in your question).

In my opinion once you make a measurement for a unit you are started moving that unit. Part of the fun of Wargaming is planning in advance, guesstimating ranges, and taking what the dice throw your way. By measuring a range or rolling the dice you are commiting to begin movement for that unit, it would be unfair to get all you values first, since it would bias your decisions as a whole.

I.E. - If my Demon Prince is in range, I will assault the Crisis Suits with him, then assault the Kroot with the Noise Marines. However, if the Demon Prince is not in range, I want to use the Marines to assault the Crisis Suits and use something else to shoot the Kroot.

I think part of the reason that the game isn't played like you are supposing is because it would take an eternity, it would lead to situations where the opponent has confusions (Did he already move the Demon Prince, he had the tape out and was measuring for him, so I guess he did, but now he's removing him...?)

That said I like to give my opponent leeway on these issues until he doesn't return the favor on something, at that point I become a rules stickler and lose most of my Sportsmanship points.

**Most of this is based on my opinions and my understanding of the rules, not actual facts**

I think technically your friend may be correct. You are not allowed to measure until it is called for, so you could say that you cannot measure how far a unit will go until you actually go to move him.

But... in my play group we are not a bunch of rules lawyering 40k addicts. It is a fun game and I would have no problem with measuring the distance and then deciding if you want to move or not assuming you are measuring exactly how far that unit will move and not the extra X inches to see if you will be in assault/rapid fire/etc. range.

I concur... It seems like it's the same that it is in shooting. You can't premeasure, decide that another squad has a better chance, and then go back after you're begun the process.

You obviously didn't have bad intent but things like that go hand in hand with tactics that are definitely cheating. Doing anything 'preemptively' makes me watch everything a bit more closely.

Yeah, your friend is technically correct. See page 11, paragraph just before "Movement Distance":

"Once you have started moving a unit, you must finish its move before you start to move another unit. You may not go back and change the move already made by a previous unit."

So, the only time you can actually measure in the movement phase is when you're about to move the actual model. Deciding that you'd go off and move another unit first means that you've completed the movement sequence of the first model and, according to these surprisingly explicit rules, can't go back to the first one.

Some people might let it slide--I would, depending on circumstance--but the rules are pretty cut-and-dry here.

See that's the thing though. The shooting and assault phases have sequences and are very specific in that they state that you must declare first, then measure. The movement phase has no such sequence or specifics. It does not state that measurement is in fact that beginning of movement. If it did at that I could completely understand. My idea of "starting a movement" is in fact actually picking up a model and moving it.. at least that's how I've always interpreted it..

But on the other hand I absolutely understand where you and my friend are coming from. I just don't see it that way ;/

I'm not sure if measuring counts as starting a unit's movement or not, but I'd be inclined to give my opponents leeway on that. However, in a tournament I absolutely call them on Slow and Purposeful and Run rolls, cause you do have to finish their movement once you roll them. (It's especially important for Run because it is more variable and will influence which units can give which units cover.)

I can see your point in terms of the BRB not explicitly stating that measuring is the beginning of movement, and in a friendly game I honestly wouldn't mind if you wanted to see how far your boys are going to get, as long as you asked if it was okay with me first.

That being said, my sense of gamerly fairness feels a bit chapped after your description of the situation. 40K isn't chess, but it is a game. In chess, if you lift a piece from the board, you must move it or forfeit your turn. Even if this isn't RAW for 40K, it does make sense from a fairness standpoint. I've always chosen the unit I was planning to move, measured, then moved that unit. The only time I'd switch to another unit was after selecting the unit and prior to measuring.

Part of the balance of the Slow and Purposeful rule is the inherent variability of the unit's movement. This randomness and the possible (read: likely) limitation to the unit's movement distance help to offset the bonuses gained by being able to move and fire rapid fire and heavy weapons. Rolling the dice to determine that distance is the beginning of movement for that unit and if you begin movement for another unit (i.e. roll for another S&P unit), the BRB is specific about the first unit's movement being forfeit.

One thing that GW has gotten right in the 40K rules is that they're clear about not letting arguments take over the game. Make an on-the-spot deliberation - the classic d6 roll-off, compromise between points of view, or simply agree with your opponent until the match is over. If it's a friendly match, make sure it stays that way. Everyone wants to be right, but only TFG insists that he's right and everyone else is wrong - especially in the middle of the game.

I can see your point however I have to agree with the above posters. Since you are playing a friendly game perhaps you can agree with your opponent to do something like the following for SaP.

SaP. If the unit wants to move then roll a dice and leave it next you the unit with the number facing up. Roll all dice for all SaP units wanting to move. Then move all the SaP units (helps spead game up a bit). Also works well with running. If a dice isn't rolled then that squad wont move but if you roll a dice then you must move that unit (part of SaP's downside).

It works well in my gaming group.

From page 3 of the Warhammer 40,000 5th edition rulebook:

In general, players are not allowed to measure any distance except when the rules call for it...

So where do the rules allow you to measure before you move? If they don't, then you can't premeasure. They only call for you to measure when moving your models the appropriate distance, not at any time during the whole Movement phase. Your opponent was entirely correct on the matter.

Your friend is right in this case.

BRB page 3 is very clear. You can't measure something unless the rules call for it. So why are you measuring the move? Because you've started that units movement. Otherwise you have no reason to be measuring. Since you're starting that units movement, page 11 is clear - you need to finish it or forfeit it before moving on to the next unit.


it doesn't matter if you have to declare the move or not, do things in order, etc. Once you measure a move, you do it. You can measure it in 6 different directions if you want but you have to make the move, not make a mental note and move on to something else.

Always move the model right after measuring. Even if the rule is unclear, it is good form.

Additionally, it is good form to clarify these things with friends with a minimum of conflict.

In your example, I would have challenged you when you were about to move the troops unit. Saying, "Wait a minute. So you're not going to move the deamon prince?" This would have brought the issue up for discussion in a manner allowing you to go back and make the move the daemon prince.

Who wants to beat a friend on a technicality?

Everyone should read page 11 of the BRB "movement distance." It says that you may measure a move in one direction, then change your mind and move in a different direction or not at all. So you can measure a movement before you actually make it.

willydstyle wrote:Everyone should read page 11 of the BRB "movement distance." It says that you may measure a move in one direction, then change your mind and move in a different direction or not at all. So you can measure a movement before you actually make it.

Indeed.

willydstyle wrote:Everyone should read page 11 of the BRB "movement distance." It says that you may measure a move in one direction, then change your mind and move in a different direction or not at all. So you can measure a movement before you actually make it.

Your point is? Which part of this allows you to measure it in multiple directions and decide not to move it...and then move it later? All it says is you can measure any direction you want for your move, move in whatever direction, or even not move even though you've measured the 6 inches. It doesn't say you can measure, then move on to some other unit and do the same measuring, and then come back to it. "Decide not to move it at all" here doesn't mean "Decide not to move it right now". It means that measuring a move doesn't mean you have to make it, and you can elect to stand still. It does not mean that you can just measure all your moves from all your units however you want before you move any of them. Measure one, move one (or elect to not move it period, which is its move).

Because it also doesn't say (unlike shooting) that the mere act of measurement is the beginning of a model's movement.

The beginning of shooting isn't checking range...the beginning of shooting is picking a target and checking line of sight.

Thats the reason this is an issue. Is the beginning of movement the act of measuring the move, or the act of actually moving the model? I'll admit that re-reading it I can't say it's clear. It's written in a way to make it sound like you're making your choice (forwards, backwards, left, right, whatever, or not at all) when you're making the measurement.

It does say however that once you've started moving a unit you have to move it (or declare it's not moving) before moving on to the next unit. No where does it say it's perfectly fine to measure the movement of something and then move on to something else. It only says you can choose not to move the direction/distance you measured. So you still don't have permission to measure something just because it's a potential legal move. It seems pretty obvious the intent is don't measure unless thats the unit you're moving, but I can see how it is not explicitly stated.

And yet again, it does not say that you can measure and then come back. It says that you can measure and then change the direction the model is moving or decide not to move it at all.

Ghaz wrote:And yet again, it does not say that you can measure and then come back. It says that you can measure and then change the direction the model is moving or decide not to move it at all.

Indeed. Anything else is pre-measuring and therefore not allowed.

Agreed. Pick a unit, measure it's move, and move it. If you move it 0" then that's it's move.

Ghaz wrote:And yet again, it does not say that you can measure and then come back. It says that you can measure and then change the direction the model is moving or decide not to move it at all.

Not relevant.
It says you can measure. It says you can move. It does not have a restriction on the timing of those actions. It says you can't start moving and then finish moving later. But it also does not state that measuring is the start of movement.

If fact, it is clear that measuring is *not* the start of movement, since you can choose to measure and then not move.


So we have certain rules.
1) You can measure your move distance.
2) Measuring does not count as movement.
3) You can measure than then choose to move, or choose to not move
4) You can move.

So, if I measure the distance for the marines. It is legal to measure for a move. And I have *not* begun their movement.
I can move the Dread. It is legal to move a dread.
I can move the marines. It is legal to move marines.

What rule have I broken?

But the the rule on pg. 3 specifically states you're not allowed to measure any distance unless the rules say you can. So to be able to measure the distance of a move, you have to be in the act of moving that unit. You MUST be in the act of moving to be allowed to measure. It doesn't say you can measure distances at any time during your movement phase, only while you MOVE.

I too agree with your friend, Beerfiend.

This is a pretty anal argument I mea your in a friendly game with your friend. Dont be so rules whoreish.

Yeah QTF, rules lawyers are a bore.

Me and my friends all plat like this:

"Right, I'm moving my Fire Dragons 6" towards those terminators"
*measure
*move

"Oh gak, no I changed my mind, I'm actually moving them 6" towards that Rhino."

At no point will someone pipe up with "Actually, page three of the rulebook clearly states..."

Thats boring. The rulebook says you can move and remove and move and remove until you are happy with that one unit's movement. Providing it has only move it's legal move from it's starting position, there's no bother.

It's not chess.

Oh and guys, it's BGB for 40k. Not BRB.

actually no. the 5th ed rule book is RED.

Friendly games and all, but measuring is surely part of your movement. I'd comment on it simply because I've seen too much of it already. Some players pre-measure by holding out much more of the tape measure than necessary when moving/shooting, for example. In this way they see what chance they have to do an assault or be assaulted if the target isn't taken out. Perhaps not technically cheating but...

Some older GW games had sections saying just to agree on your measureing traditions beforehand, which is something I've always preferred, I don't want to win a game because someone can't guesstimate a foot and keeps missing their shooting/assaults.

So I always ask my opponenet (who're all friends of mine these days, so its not much of an issue)in advance if he'd prefer that we both just be allowed to measure freely. With the long ago end of 'Guess" range guns its hardly a game balance issue and there is no reason some players should be rewarded/penalized because they're bad at measuring in their heads.

But, thats just me, and I admit it is not in accordance with the rules in the book.

Jack

page 11 wrote: Once a unit has completed all of its movement, the player selects another unit and moves that one, and so on, until the player has moved all the units he wishes to move.

Sounds to me like you must completely finish with a unit's movement before you can start the movement of another. Measuring and rolling for SnP seem to be part of the movement of that unit as well, and therefore cannot be done before the previous unit's movement has been fully completed.

Jackmojo wrote:I don't want to win a game because someone can't guesstimate a foot and keeps missing their shooting/assaults.

Do yourself a favour and never play Fantasy then, that's an extremely vital skill. Hell, even 40k that's a pretty integral ability imo (it was even moreso until they took out guess range weapons).

Hollismason wrote: This is a pretty anal argument I mea your in a friendly game with your friend. Dont be so rules whoreish.

This attitude kind of bothers me. If I moved my infantry unit, say, 10 tactical marines on foot, 24" across the board. You would speak up because they should only get to move 6", right? What if I called you a rules whore/lawyer/whatever for interjecting? Obviously you would think I'm being TFG.

But who says individuals get to decide when we start and stop following the rules? It makes logical sense to me that by playing the game of Warhammer 40,000, we've all agreed to adhere to this particular set of abstract rules. Now, why would those rules apply or not apply, depending on their specificity? Obviously no one is going to sit down and have this thread's conversation in the middle of a game, it would ruin the fun of it; you'd dice off or something, and get on with it. I know I'm not the only one tired of seeing different 'flavours' of 40k at each FLGS they attend. I'm not referring to house rules: those are different, I merely mean slightly different interpretations of the same rules, generally unspoken and informal.

All I'm saying is that we've all agreed to play by the 40k ruleset: let's all follow it as best we can, yes?

/derail

Beer, your buddy was indeed correct. The entirety of a unit's movement process must be completed before another's may be started. I doubt you'll find hard evidence that this would include rolling for SnP as well, but my gut says that's included.

The Defenestrator wrote:

Jackmojo wrote:I don't want to win a game because someone can't guesstimate a foot and keeps missing their shooting/assaults.

Do yourself a favour and never play Fantasy then, that's an extremely vital skill. Hell, even 40k that's a pretty integral ability imo (it was even moreso until they took out guess range weapons).

Yeah, I actually came to this opinion because of my past experience with fantasy...having my Empire Army cannons blast someones army to smithereens when they can't land a single rock lobba shot was kinda sad and not very fun, why wheel and manuever when I can cripple their best formations before we're even in melee...

Jack

P.S. example dates back to ...4th edition fantasy I think, its been a long time