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Lordhat wrote:

enmitee wrote:actually no. the 5th ed rule book is RED.

Not mine. It's clearly Grey with red on it.

Yup, a big grey book with a red picture on it. I have to admit that annoys me as well, way too much perhaps, but it still does. BGB is 40K, BRB is WFB. It even says it in the little tool tip pop-up for Emperor's sake ;-)

As for the actual topic of the thread, I certainly agree that when you start rolling dice for movement and/or measuring movement you either move that unit or forfeit your move. Seems fairly obvious to me, and seemingly to most other people as well.

I think a few people here need to brush up on their reading comprehension skills instead of playing semantics. Once again, from page 11 of the Warhammer 40,000 5th edition rulebook:

It is perfectly fine to measure a unit’s move in one direction, and then change your mind and decide to move it somewhere else... or decide not to move it at all.

From Dictionary.com:

at all
a. in the slightest degree: I wasn't surprised at all.
b. for any reason: Why bother at all?
c. in any way: no offense at all.

The rules don't say you can decide "... not to move it at the present time and then maybe decide to move it later..." but you can decide "... not to move it at all...". That specific wording means that once you've decided not to move it for that Movement phase you can't move it in the slightest degree, for any reason or in any way for the rest of that phase, period.

Gee Ghaz, you seem to have added a whole lot of words to that rule. Words that don't exist in the actual rule in the actual book.

Yes, we all know what 'at all' means. You are putting a timing restriction on it, and you are assuming that you can't change your mind later.

Again, there is nothing in the rules that say you can't change your mind.
You can't start move, and later finish move. But that is *not* the case here. (Though, it is interesting that it was the original claim, now that it has been debunked, other 'reasons;' are coming to light.)



Scenario:
I say I am going to shoot unit A. Then I change my mind and shoot unit B.
I say I am going to Run that unit. Then I change my mind and shoot with it instead.
etc. etc.
(there are some things you can't change, but those are stated as such.)

The rule does *not* say that you have to move it then, or not at all that turn.
The rule does *not* say that if you don't move it 'at all' right then, you can't move it later in the phase.

The rules *do* say you can measure before you move.
The rules *do* say you can move units in any order.
The rules *do* say that you can move any unit that has not already moved.
The rules are clear that measuring is *not* part of movement. (or no shooting heavy weapons)


So, I measure forward, then decide I will move it backwards instead. Then I decide I will not move it at all.
Later that phase..... that unit still have not moved, nor has it even started moving. Thus it is still eligible to be moved. So I move it sideways.

You are creating rules when you say that it can't be move "at all in that phase" (Seeing as how the rules don't include those words.)

I've not added a single word, thank you. You on the other hand have done nothing but bend the words to your own POV despite the fact that they say right there that if you measure you can decide not to move AT ALL and not just decide to move later. It's you who's shown an utter lack of reading comprehension.

coredump wrote:Gee Ghaz, you seem to have added a whole lot of words to that rule. Words that don't exist in the actual rule in the actual book.

Yes, we all know what 'at all' means. You are putting a timing restriction on it, and you are assuming that you can't change your mind later.

Again, there is nothing in the rules that say you can't change your mind.
You can't start move, and later finish move. But that is *not* the case here. (Though, it is interesting that it was the original claim, now that it has been debunked, other 'reasons;' are coming to light.)



Scenario:
I say I am going to shoot unit A. Then I change my mind and shoot unit B.
I say I am going to Run that unit. Then I change my mind and shoot with it instead.
etc. etc.
(there are some things you can't change, but those are stated as such.)

The rule does *not* say that you have to move it then, or not at all that turn.
The rule does *not* say that if you don't move it 'at all' right then, you can't move it later in the phase.

The rules *do* say you can measure before you move.
The rules *do* say you can move units in any order.
The rules *do* say that you can move any unit that has not already moved.
The rules are clear that measuring is *not* part of movement. (or no shooting heavy weapons)


So, I measure forward, then decide I will move it backwards instead. Then I decide I will not move it at all.
Later that phase..... that unit still have not moved, nor has it even started moving. Thus it is still eligible to be moved. So I move it sideways.

You are creating rules when you say that it can't be move "at all in that phase" (Seeing as how the rules don't include those words.)

So actually by your definition, it would mean that if you measure and choose not to move at all, those models would never ever be able to be moved again.
Like you said, there is no timestamp on "at all" and we all know that if it isnt written it isnt there. So "at all" means you cant move ever again. Seems to serve you right for trying that crap.

Kallbrand wrote:

coredump wrote:Gee Ghaz, you seem to have added a whole lot of words to that rule. Words that don't exist in the actual rule in the actual book.

Yes, we all know what 'at all' means. You are putting a timing restriction on it, and you are assuming that you can't change your mind later.

Again, there is nothing in the rules that say you can't change your mind.
You can't start move, and later finish move. But that is *not* the case here. (Though, it is interesting that it was the original claim, now that it has been debunked, other 'reasons;' are coming to light.)



Scenario:
I say I am going to shoot unit A. Then I change my mind and shoot unit B.
I say I am going to Run that unit. Then I change my mind and shoot with it instead.
etc. etc.
(there are some things you can't change, but those are stated as such.)

The rule does *not* say that you have to move it then, or not at all that turn.
The rule does *not* say that if you don't move it 'at all' right then, you can't move it later in the phase.

The rules *do* say you can measure before you move.
The rules *do* say you can move units in any order.
The rules *do* say that you can move any unit that has not already moved.
The rules are clear that measuring is *not* part of movement. (or no shooting heavy weapons)


So, I measure forward, then decide I will move it backwards instead. Then I decide I will not move it at all.
Later that phase..... that unit still have not moved, nor has it even started moving. Thus it is still eligible to be moved. So I move it sideways.

You are creating rules when you say that it can't be move "at all in that phase" (Seeing as how the rules don't include those words.)

So actually by your definition, it would mean that if you measure and choose not to move at all, those models would never ever be able to be moved again.
Like you said, there is no timestamp on "at all" and we all know that if it isnt written it isnt there. So "at all" means you cant move ever again. Seems to serve you right for trying that crap.

That's exactly what I said but apparently I'm the only deviant who thinks outside of one possible definition ... lol. But sarcasm aside, it's quite obvious that everyone sees multiple definitions of "at all" otherwise that unit would indeed not be able to move at all for the rest of the game ;P

Kallbrand wrote:[So actually by your definition, it would mean that if you measure and choose not to move at all, those models would never ever be able to be moved again.
Like you said, there is no timestamp on "at all" and we all know that if it isnt written it isnt there. So "at all" means you cant move ever again. Seems to serve you right for trying that crap.

And by your defintion, you'd be able to make you normal move in the Shooting phase or the Assault phase instead. Seems to me you're the one who's dishing out the crap. Try an actually counter the rule instead of making up nonsensical reasons why the rules can't actually say what they do. So once again, if you measure, you either move the models up to 6" in any direction or you decide not to move AT ALL in the Movement phase.

coredump wrote:The rule does *not* say that if you don't move it 'at all' right then, you can't move it later in the phase.

To dig up my favoured logical fallacy again, I can also point out that it does *not* say that if you don't move it 'at all' right then, you can't have your troops put on superman outfits and so on and so forth. What is does do however is say move, or don't move at all. Those are your only two options, and 'come back later' isn't on the list, at least not until next turn gives you another shot at it.

The rules are clear that measuring is *not* part of movement. (or no shooting heavy weapons)

Thats not actually the case. What is does say that measuring isn't a compulsion to move, nothing about it not being part of movement.

I see your point though and theres some weight in what you're saying based purely on a sequence of events standpoint but I find the presence of reinforcing 'not move at all' to be pushing to towards making a choice at that time. Incidently I did look up stormtrooper targeters out of curiousity, and they follow a similar sequence causing an effect nearly the same but with even looser wording as it doesn't place any requirement on making a choice of what to do that that point.

@beerfiend:

there is no multiple definiton of at all.

You're perfectly allowed to move them again...the next time the movement phase comes around, because at the beginning of the movement phase you're allowed (by the rules of the movement phase) to do everything again.

Anyway, it doesn't matter. All the "at all" does is allow two possibilities after measuring and chosing not to move- you can't move them ever again, or you can't move them again that movement phase. Any other reading is specifically ignoring the actual definition of at all. It doesn't matter if you think it's ambiguous if at all means "all all...until you're allowed to again because we re-started the whole thing in a new movement phase" or "at all...ever, just sit there buddy". The second interpretation is ridiculous for sure, but its mere existence is NOT an argument for being able to pre-measure.

Even if you can only measure from 1 unit before moving or not, wouldnt you still be able to 'premeasure' from that unit to all enemy units before deciding where to move?
"Can I charge that basilisk? hmm 36" away, guess Ill move 6" this other way."

So actually by your definition, it would mean that if you measure and choose not to move at all, those models would never ever be able to be moved again.

The opposite. Since there is no time on the statement, you can't say it is for the whole phase, and you can't say it is for the whole game. It is a decision made at that time, and that is it.
There is nothing saying it then counts as having moved. There is nothing saying it is restricted from moving from then on. There is nothing changing its options in the rules.

I've not added a single word, thank you.
Yet...
or you decide not to move AT ALL in the Movement phase.

Classic.
The rules do *NOT* give a time restriction, they say you must make a decision... that is all they state.

So I make a decision.... then later I can make a different decision.

The rules do not preclude that. Unless you add words....

And by your defintion, you'd be able to make you normal move in the Shooting phase or the Assault phase instead

Nice straw man.... since no one is making that claim, countering it isn't that bold of a move.
There are no rules that allow normal movement during the shooting/assault phases. There are rules allowing it in the movement phase.

To dig up my favoured logical fallacy again, I can also point out that it does *not* say that if you don't move it 'at all' right then, you can't have your troops put on superman outfits and so on and so forth.

yep, I understand. but the difference is that there is no rule that lets a model fly like Superman, but there are rules that lets me move my units in my movement phase. I can choose which units I want to move, and I can move them in any order.
So everything I want to do, has rules allowing it. The only issue is if a different rule is restricting the actions.

The rule says I need to make a decision, there is nothing saying that decision has to be permanent.
We make decisions all the time, and then change those decisions. Sometimes the rules say you can't change a decision.... but this is not one of those.


Whenever I start to move *any* unit, I can always decide to not move the unit; and then come back later and decide to move it. Nothing in this rule changes that.

The only restriction is that once you start moving a unit, you must complete its movement before moving on.
But measuring is not movement, so that doesn't apply.

Thats not actually the case. What is does say that measuring isn't a compulsion to move, nothing about it not being part of movement.

Well, if it is part of "moving" then you must complete everything before moving to the next unit. But if it is part of "moving" then once you do it you can't fire heavy weapons.
So however you define it, it effects both, or neither.

coredump wrote:

So actually by your definition, it would mean that if you measure and choose not to move at all, those models would never ever be able to be moved again.

The opposite. Since there is no time on the statement, you can't say it is for the whole phase, and you can't say it is for the whole game. It is a decision made at that time, and that is it.
There is nothing saying it then counts as having moved. There is nothing saying it is restricted from moving from then on. There is nothing changing its options in the rules.

Actually its pretty neat that I have to tell you (since english is your main language) that at all, is per definition unlimited in time. You may not move at all, that actuall means you cant move, ever, period. So if you wanna go by strict RAW that is what you will get, there is nothing limiting it, neither to this time you activate it, this movementphase or any time after. This is ofc. both stupid and silly, but thats what the wording means.


Ghaz just jumps the gun as usual without even realising I was actually agreeing with him for once, thats abit funny to see.

I have to say that after reading the passage on page 11, It looks to me like they are using the words "at all" in a casual sense and not a literal one.

It's like going to a restaurant and buying a hambuger once you decide that you might like a hambuger you begin to weigh your options. You look at the menu and see that:

a) You can have a hambuger with cheese
b) You can have a hambuger with bacon
c) You can have a hambuger with both cheese and bacon
d) Or you can decide not to have a hambuger at all.

There's nothing saying that you can't re-evaluate your decision 2 mins later and decide to go ahead and get a hambuger after all.

The 40k rules say that you cannot re-visit a unit once you have completed that unit's movement. They don't day that you cannot re-visit a unit you were merely thinking about moving earlier. Measuring distances is part of that decision. There's nothing in the rules that states once you've declared that you've decided not to move a unit then you may not change that decision later.

If someone in the shooting phase declares that a squad is not going to shoot but then changes their mind later and wants to shoot with them, they are allowed to do so. They are not locked in to their decision from earlier in the phase. You are only locked in to your choices when you choose to shoot. The only difference with the movement phase is that the rules state that you are allowed to pre-measure before you decide to move or not.

The rules are basically saying "you are allowed to declare that you are not going to move a unit at all". This is not the same as "Once you declare that you are not going to move a unit at all, that unit may not move during this movement phase."

It's pretty clear from the coptext the passage on page 11 is simply saying that once you begin to measure a potential movement for any given unit you are not committed to to actually moving that unit. That's it. That's all the passage is saying. It's simply confirming that just because you measure doesn't mean you must move. Any extra bit about being locked into your decision not to move is being added by people.

For the record, I've always seen it played this way. People start measuring to move a unit then change their mind. They switch to another unit and move it. Then they come back to the original unit and decide to move them after all. I don't see the big problem with this. Is it really that much of a game breaker?

Kallbrand wrote:Actually its pretty neat that I have to tell you (since english is your main language) that at all, is per definition unlimited in time. You may not move at all, that actuall means you cant move, ever, period.

Only if yoiu lack any reading comprehension and ignore the fact that the rules are in the section of the rulebook dealing with the Movement phase. Even wioth your flawed reading skills, it does not change what it says. It says 'at all', not 'at the present time' like you seem to think it says in your fantasy world.

holden88 wrote:d) Or you can decide not to have a hambuger at all.

There's nothing saying that you can't re-evaluate your decision 2 mins later and decide to go ahead and get a hambuger after all.

Because you didn't decide not to have a hamburger at all, did you? No. You just decided at a later time. That is not 'at all'.

This is why using "english language definitions" is flawed in rules arguments, because to be honest, phrases and words are only nebulously defined. This combined with GW's unwillingness to use the language with precision equal to say... a book of legal codes... leads to these rules debates.

While I agree with you in general, I believe this is not such a case. This is just a total lack of reading comprehension on their parts and a refusal to understand that 'at all' does not mean 'at this time'.

But since the movement phase doesn't have a cut-and-dry order of operations like the shooting and close combat phases... I think that a reasonable person could interpret it as exactly that.

'Order of operations' has nothing to do with it. 'At all' covers the entire phase.

Well, I feel like I'm beating a dead horse, but the rules don't say that. As has been mentioned, you can't really apply a set time-limit to the phrase.

It could mean for the entire phase.

It could mean for the entire game.

It could mean until you decide to come back to that unit later in the phase.

Of the three options, option number two is patently ridiculous. Options one and three are more in-line with the spirit of the game. And I believe (as do other posters) that option three has the most support by the rules.

'At all' means 'at all'. It covers the entirety of the Movement phase. Otherwise it would not be 'at all', would it? No. And likewise, it doesn't cover the entire game because it's in the rules for the Movement phase, just like the rest of the rules for movement. Or are you saying that all of the rules for movement can occur in any phase of the game? If not, then why does this one rule apply to entire game?

'At all' means the entire Movement phase. If they did not mean the entire Movement phase then once again, they would NOT have used the phrase 'at all'. No matter how many times you or the others keep repeating yourselves, it's not going to change that. If you could decide to move later in the Movement phase, then they would not have used 'at all'.

Ghaz wrote:'At all' means 'at all'. It covers the entirety of the Movement phase. Otherwise it would not be 'at all', would it?

I agree on that. Can't say for the monkey that writes down those sentences but I would have said "later" if I intended to allow measuring and then deciding to, you know, move later.

Ghaz wrote:'At all' means 'at all'. It covers the entirety of the Movement phase. Otherwise it would not be 'at all', would it? No. And likewise, it doesn't cover the entire game because it's in the rules for the Movement phase, just like the rest of the rules for movement. Or are you saying that all of the rules for movement can occur in any phase of the game? If not, then why does this one rule apply to entire game?

'At all' means the entire Movement phase. If they did not mean the entire Movement phase then once again, they would NOT have used the phrase 'at all'. No matter how many times you or the others keep repeating yourselves, it's not going to change that. If you could decide to move later in the Movement phase, then they would not have used 'at all'.

Is that written somewhere or are you making it up? Please back up your big talk with something that is actually written.

And again, there is NO WAY that 'at all' can mean 'later in this very same turn'. You are the one who needs to back up your imaginary defintion.

Kallbrand wrote:

Ghaz wrote:'At all' means 'at all'. It covers the entirety of the Movement phase. Otherwise it would not be 'at all', would it? No. And likewise, it doesn't cover the entire game because it's in the rules for the Movement phase, just like the rest of the rules for movement. Or are you saying that all of the rules for movement can occur in any phase of the game? If not, then why does this one rule apply to entire game?

'At all' means the entire Movement phase. If they did not mean the entire Movement phase then once again, they would NOT have used the phrase 'at all'. No matter how many times you or the others keep repeating yourselves, it's not going to change that. If you could decide to move later in the Movement phase, then they would not have used 'at all'.

Is that written somewhere or are you making it up? Please back up your big talk with something that is actually written.

It does, first paragraph under the heading "MOVEMENT DISTANCE" last sentence, last words.

I am with ghaz on this 100%. The rules after reading them several times (all of which is pretty much found on only a couple of paragraphs) seems pretty clear in my mind.

1) you only 'move' one unit at a time, and once done, you then move on to another unit
2) you can not go back and change a unit's move once you start moving another unit
3) once measuring you can choose to go in another direction entirely or choose to not move 'at all'

That's it folks. 'at all' like Ghaz says, is used (once you read the rules) to indicate that you are done moving that model and have decided to move another unit and can not go back and change your mind later as in step 2.

All 3 steps are found on page 11 in the first 2 paragraphs of the rules.

Remember the deciding to 'not' move a model once you have started to move it (i.e. measure it as indicated in the first paragraph) does IMHO mean you have initiated your steps as indicated again on page 3 under the heading "MEASURING DISTANCES" in which you may not measure distances unless a rule tells you too.

The rules tell you to measure for movement but only when moving a model. If you are not moving a model, then no measuring, and in the same token, once measured, you have started that models movement and moved it or decided to not move it 'at all'.

Otherwise you are pre-measuring.

So writing it in BIG letters now make it more true? I think thats a clear sign you dont have anything to back it up with.

Im still saying that "at all" doesnt have a timestamp and if you wanna be wordmongering about it, it will be forever. If you dont add a time stamp to it, thats excatly what it will mean. So im actually backing it up, with a standard dictionary, where do you find your way?

EDIT: Last entry was while I was writing.

I actually agree with that, but that is thru drawing a logical conclusion. There is nothing that sais it just applies during this activation, movementphase or even remotley like that. You seem to be backing it up under the fact that it is written under the section of movement rules but that doesnt by itself prove anything. You have alot of rules that applies and gives effects thru other phases then the one they were written under.

Still making up imaginary defitions you can't support I see. Go back to your fantasy world until you can find a dictionary that says 'at all' means 'later'. 'At all' does have a 'time stamp' on it based by where it's at in the rules. That's in the rules for the Movement phase. You however are trying to change it to have a completely different defintion that's not in any dictionary. Even without a 'time stamp', there is absolutely no way it can mean what you want it to.

edited: nevermind

Ghaz wrote:Still making up imaginary [I guess you mean definitions, but maybe english isnt your main language/Kall] defitions you can't support I see. Go back to your fantasy world until you can find a dictionary that says 'at all' means 'later'. 'At all' does have a 'time stamp' on it based by where it's at in the rules. That's in the rules for the Movement phase. You however are trying to change it to have a completely different defintion that's not in any dictionary. Even without a 'time stamp', there is absolutely no way it can mean what you want it to.

Ofc it is unlimited by definition.
For example: You cant have dinner at all, doesnt mean you can have dinner in an hour.. or 2.

Where do you find anything that makes it apply only for the movementphase or only this turn? Please point to the writing instead of just adding insults about my fantasy world. Othervise your opinion counts for squat.

Gentlemen, this thread has been reported. After reviewing there are multiple posts that require editing and potential action. However, as its the third thread of the morning and I've already enjoyed myself with suspensions, am posting a general reminder-POLITENESS IS REQUIRED. From this point forward please refrain from personal attacks and argue the merits of the, er, argument. I will be periodically reviewing this thread.

This is just a total lack of reading comprehension on their parts

It is always good when a rules debate devolves into insults.


Ghaz, it does *not* say "at all that phase". It doesn't. Nope. Not there.

You keep claiming it 'means' that, but it does not *say* that.

You must make a decision.... you are always free to change your decision.


I can 'decide' a lot of things during a game.

For example, I can decide to shoot my lascannons at the Carnifex, and I can even say it. But I am free to change my mind and shoot something else, or even not shoot. Or not shoot right away, but shoot something else and shoot the lascannons later.

Another example, at the beginning of my phase I decide to move both marine squads.
Then I decide to measure for one.
Then I *change* my decision, and decide to *not* move either one.
Then I move my vehicles, and then change my decision again; I decide I do want to move both marine squads.

The rules *say*
I can move a unit during the movement phase. I can decide to move, or not move, as often as I want. I just can't start the move, and finish it later.


The term 'at all' does not have a time duration associated with it. This does not mean it is permanent, it means it is indefinite. In this case it is tied to a decision, as always, you can change your decisions if you so choose.