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And how do you figure that? The rules don't say that I can't stomp on your miniatures and claim that I win automatically either, do they? No, but by your logic, it's perfectly fine. So once again, where do the rules say that I can use anything I happen to find on the internet without my opponet's permission?

No by my logic it's not fine. The rules don't say that you can use anything you find on the internet without my opponents permission. I agree with you on that point. Pulling up someone's home brewed rules from a geocities site isn't legal.

What I'm saying is that the rules for the Red Terror, which are posted on a games workshop website, specifically say that the red terror may be used in tyranid swarms of 1500 pts or more.

I think this really sums things up.

Daggermaw wrote:The rules for the red terror mention nothing about your opponents permission. Thus I don't need your permission.

You should check out my website, I have rules there for some really cool stuff, and it also doesn't mention needing opponents permission.

The Red Terror rules are on a website, granted, a website of the company that makes the game; but that is *not* the same as being *part* of the game.
By that logic, I could use Red Terror in fantasy battles, or maybe LotR games. Or, use Nids and Eldar and Orks together....

I'm just saying where does it say if it's not in the codex you need your opponents permission?

It doesn't. but it says you can use the codex. Where does it say you can use things you find on the internet?

What I'm saying is that the rules for the Red Terror, which are posted on a games workshop website, specifically say that the red terror may be used in tyranid swarms of 1500 pts or more.

Fine. Now show me where it says that taking rules/models/whatever from a website, any website, is legal under the 40K rules.

You should check out my website, I have rules there for some really cool stuff, and it also doesn't mention needing opponents permission.

The Red Terror rules are on a website, granted, a website of the company that makes the game; but that is *not* the same as being *part* of the game.
By that logic, I could use Red Terror in fantasy battles, or maybe LotR games. Or, use Nids and Eldar and Orks together....

No you couldn't use the red terror or orks and nids together because there is no rule giving you permission to do so.

Fine. Now show me where it says that taking rules/models/whatever from a website, any website, is legal under the 40K rules.

It doesn't say it anywhere, but people seem to take FAQs and errata which are published exclusively online as legal changes to the rules.

The Blood Angels codex is online. Is that not legal then? Are they not part of the game? Or do I need my opponents permission to use the BA codex to play them?

Ghaz wrote:And how do you figure that? The rules don't say that I can't stomp on your miniatures and claim that I win automatically either, do they? No, but by your logic, it's perfectly fine. So once again, where do the rules say that I can use anything I happen to find on the internet without my opponet's permission?

It is perfectly fine, however thats also criminal damage, and I think the local ploice will love to have a word with you.

@Platuan4th: That was meant to be 1000 points. If you feel my argument is invalid, please present your evidence as to why that is. You say it is pedantic, I say its mearly being consice.

@Bookwrak: That is exactly my point. The entire game is permission only!

@Daggermaw: Yes you do need your opponents permission, just as I need my opponents permission to play my Space Wolves, or my Orks, or a Necron Army I borrowed 10 mins ago etc etc

Yeah, gawrl, your whole argument that the whole game is permission based is getting old. We all get it. We all get that you need your opponents permission to do anything.

Just like you need permission to do just about anything involving interacting with another human being. It's just that most times no one asks permission. I don't ask permission of someone on the street if I can ask them for directions. I don't ask permission when I want to give my gf a hug.

That's not the type of permission we're talking about, we're talking about what rules you NEED to ask your opponent to use.

If your opponent agrees to play you or argees to play in a tournanment there are certain rules you don't need to ask permission to use. That's what this debate is about.

Daggermaw wrote:
That's not the type of permission we're talking about, we're talking about what rules you NEED to ask your opponent to use.

That is my exact point. Everything NEEDS to be ok with your opponent, even if its just "We gonna use the rules in this book?" Even for pick up games.

Having something as "Opponents permission only" is overly redundant

frameshift wrote:Just for my own curiosity, where exactly are these rules for the Red Terror that everyone has found online? I can't find anything on GW's site besides the collector's models themselves.

Google Search

Having something as "Opponents permission only" is overly redundant

Not at all, especially in older codex, where this all stems from. Special charcters needed express permission from an opponent to be used.

If an opponent agrees to play your necrons they must be willing to accept all the rules that are in the codex. If they don't want you taking 3 monoliths they need your permission to limit the amount of monotliths.

Oh gee, what a revelation! I can use a search engine to look for material online? I never thought of that before.

That's great if I'm in Australia, I guess.

No it works all over the planet.

Funny enough, I can't get to the Oz GW page from that search listing that supopsedly has the red terror info on it.

So no, it doesn't.

really? where are you located?

Daggermaw wrote:

Having something as "Opponents permission only" is overly redundant

Not at all, especially in older codex, where this all stems from. Special charcters needed express permission from an opponent to be used.

If an opponent agrees to play your necrons they must be willing to accept all the rules that are in the codex. If they don't want you taking 3 monoliths they need your permission to limit the amount of monotliths.

Or they could just not play me and play someone else...

Also, Google ftw

That's true in friendly games, tournaments not so much.

Do you chuckleheads really believe I didn't try a google search with the input "site:http://www.games-workshop.com red terror rules "?

And I'm just in CA, I don't see any good reason why I can't access the Oz GW page. But I still can't find anything on the US GW page.

edit: I just want to see some rules for this beast ;_;

Sure I can, I just take the game loss.

Tourniments are also permission only, though this time it is you give permission to the tourniment orginisers to set whatever rules they want to use.

The oz site is down atm, and no the rules arnt on the GW US site.

Do you chuckleheads really believe I didn't try a google search with the input "site:http://www.games-workshop.com red terror rules "?

And I'm just in CA, I don't see any good reason why I can't access the Oz GW page. But I still can't find anything on the US GW page.

edit: I just want to see some rules for this beast ;_;

Hey sometimes you never know.

It's weird you can't access the page. Send me a PM with your email address and I'll try and send them over to you.

Sure I can, I just take the game loss.

Tourniments are also permission only, though this time it is you give permission to the tourniment orginisers to set whatever rules they want to use.

Or is it the tournament organizers that give you permission to play in it?

Daggermaw wrote:

Sure I can, I just take the game loss.

Tourniments are also permission only, though this time it is you give permission to the tourniment orginisers to set whatever rules they want to use.

Or is it the tournament organizers that give you permission to play in it?

You could say that

You could say that

So then you can't not play a game in a tournament as you most likely would be DQ'd and not given permission to play any other games.

Daggermaw wrote:

You could say that

So then you can't not play a game in a tournament as you most likely would be DQ'd and not given permission to play any other games.

Again if the TO wants to do that, so be it.

You must live in a strange world.

Daggermaw wrote:What I'm saying is that the rules for the Red Terror, which are posted on a games workshop website, specifically say that the red terror may be used in tyranid swarms of 1500 pts or more.

And how does 'may only be used in a 1,500 point game or greater' mean the same as 'may be used without your opponent's permission'? They don't mean the same thing. Sure you can only field the Red Terror in a 1,500 point game or greater, but only after you've gotten your opponent's permission to do so.

So once again, where does it say that you can use them without your opponent's permission? So far, you've not provided any support for your arguments.

Gwar! wrote:

Ghaz wrote:And how do you figure that? The rules don't say that I can't stomp on your miniatures and claim that I win automatically either, do they? No, but by your logic, it's perfectly fine. So once again, where do the rules say that I can use anything I happen to find on the internet without my opponet's permission?

It is perfectly fine, however thats also criminal damage, and I think the local ploice will love to have a word with you.

More proof you don't have a clue about what's being discussed here. The point is that agreeing to a game is not the same as agreeing to allow your opponent to use whatever he wants.

And how does 'may only be used in a 1,500 point game or greater' mean the same as 'may be used without your opponent's permission'? They don't mean the same thing. Sure you can only field the Red Terror in a 1,500 point game or greater, but only after you've gotten your opponent's permission to do so.

So once again, where does it say that you can use them without your opponent's permission? So far, you've not provided any support for your arguments.

Where does it say you can't use them without permission?

The necron special characters specifically say you need permission. These do not.

Here in YMTC, RAW is the basis for all arguments. I say that RAW there is nothing preventing me from using the red terror rules in my tyranid army.

-There is nothing in the BRB that specifically says that all the rules I use have to come from the actual printed codex.
-The rules for the Red Terror are published on a GW website, other rules published on the same website are considered viable ie. FAQs, errata, Blood Angels Codex.
-The rules for the Red Terror say I may use him in any tyranid swarm 1500 pts or more.

Why would I need to point somewhere that says I can use him, alot of people use FAQs, errata and codices.

If you told me that a certain part of the BRB was wrong but this thing you downloaded off the games workshop website corrects that I wouldn't tell "you show me where in the main rules it says this is ok"

And yet again, where does it say that you CAN use them without permission? GW's games are permissive. Unless they specifically allow something, then you can't do it. Since they don't say that you can use anything you find on the internet without opponent's permission, then you can not.

There is nothing in the BRB that specifically says that all the rules I use have to come from the actual printed codex.

Nor is there anything that says that you can either. Therefore with GW's permissive rules set, you can't.

The rules for the Red Terror are published on a GW website, other rules published on the same website are considered viable ie. FAQs, errata, Blood Angels Codex.

So what? That still does not mean you don't need your opponent's permission. Show us where they ever once say that because something is printed on their website you can pull it out on your opponent without their consent.

The rules for the Red Terror say I may use him in any tyranid swarm 1500 pts or more.

And yet again, just because the rules say that you must have a 1,500 point force to field the Red Terror does not mean that you don't need your opponent's permission. They're two totally unrelated statements. It does NOT give you permission to use him, just how he must be used if permitted. When it says he's a Fast Attack choice, does that give you permission to field him? No. This is no different.

So far, you've not shown us a single passage or rule from GW allowing you to use whatever you want when you agree to a game. None whatsoever. All you've done is give us meaningless drivel.

Ghaz by your logic, that even though it doesnt say you need your opponents permission (as redundant as that is) you still do, wouldnt that mean using the Dark Angels codex also requires special permission from the opponet? Please "Show us where they ever once say that because something is printed (in a codex) you can pull it out on your opponent without their consent."

And again, how many times do we have to repeat ourselves that there is a difference between agreeing to a game and agreeing to use something somebody pulled off of the internet? No ones questioning that the two people agreed to a game. It's what that agreement entails and that is the main rules and the codices ONLY. Even Forgeworld sees that as Warwick Kinrade recently posted in the foreward of Imperila Armour Apocalypse:

As far as we are concerned Codexes and the rulebook are official, everything else is up to the players to use and ignore at will. Want to play on a ruined city board using the City of Death rules variant? Fine. Want to play on a ruined city board without using the rules variants, just using the rules as published in the 40K rulebook? Also fine. The only thing that matters is that both players know this before they start, and both players agree that's the way they want to play the game. So is City of Deat official? You can't use it in a tournament! The Imperial Armour rules are just the same...

So what? That still does not mean you don't need your opponent's permission. Show us where they ever once say that because something is printed on their website you can pull it out on your opponent without their consent.

So by that logic I would need my opponents permission to use the FAQs and errata?

The erratas in the FAQs are official changes to the rulebook and codices. They are a part of the rulebook and codices. GW's current stance on the FAQs are indeed that both players agree to their usage.

So are you done trying to change the subject, or do you actually have something to back up your claims?