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i was playing a game against tyranid and he was running with the red terror and assulting after.....but i can't find any info saying he has "fleet of claw" USR..

i understand he is a mostrous creature and has "relentless"(move,shoot,assult) rule but can he substitue his shooting(he NO shooting weapons) for a run and assult after????i think not.????this is FLEET???

To the best of my knowledge Red Terror isn't in the latest codex so I figure one of three things has happened.

He is still using the old 3rd edition codex, which first off is an invalid codex given that a new one has been released, but also does not entitle Red Terror to fleet, and while he can move and assault 9" if he chose to run he could not assault.

He is using the old Red Terror rules but has manually updated them to reflect the modern ravener profile, and instead of moving and assaulting 9" he is treating the movement like a beast as per modern raveners. All Beasts and Cavalry have fleet.

He was using the Red Terror model to simply represent a normal Ravener from the currect rulebook rather than actually using the Red Terror profile at all.

The Red Terror is from the 4th edition Tyranid codex and therefore there will be some rules inconsistencies.

BTW, he did ask your permission to field him first? The Red Terror requires the opponent's permission to be fielded.

no he didn't ask...i looked in his online profile, and it just says that the game must be 1500pts or more....

If it's not in the codex, it requires your opponent's permission. That's doubly so since his online page was written for 4th edition, not 5th.

Actually Ghaz, I think it was written for3rd. the current codex came out for 4th.

No. The Red Terror was in the 3rd edition codex. It was written (or at least released) for 4th edition because everyone complained that they lost their special characters with the current codex.

I tend to agree with Ghaz that even if the online stuff doesn't say "ask your opponents permission" as it is content that is not within the errata or the codex it requires an agreement.

Looking at these rules which I was not aware of it seems he does not have fleet and therefore cannot assault after running, once again, it was probably confusion since normal raveners now do have fleet on your opponents part.

Just want to point out (yet another) misconseption about opponents permission only.

-clears throat-

THE WHOLE BLOODY GAME IS OPPONENTS PERMISSION ONLY!

That is all.

There is a difference between agreeing to a game and agreeing to use an out of date unit that's not in your opponent's codex.

Look you both make a valid point. Be good sports is what it comes down to. Ask if you can field old special characters before you drop them in the game and just agree on the general stuff before the game starts and then if something comes up dont go off and complaine about it. Man up and take the higher road.

Ok just to clear up being a long time nid player, chapter approved 2004 states that the tyranid "special" monstrous creatures are not special characters and therefore do not need opponents permission, Tyranid Q&A, page 98 first question. "Pertaining to old one eye and the red terror,the codex never refers to them as special characters, or even characters for that matter: Answer: Nope, they are tyranid monstrous creatures, you dont need your opponents permission to field them" Second, I sent a message a while back to GW asking if they can still be fielded in armies for a tournament type scenario, they replied that since they are not in the newest codex then technically no, but people have fielded them and there have been no reported problems. In this way I say wth, let him play with them, I mean every other race is getting mad rediculous characters that dont technically need permission, since most scenarios/lists allow/have them.

So what? They're not in the current codex, hence they need your opponent's permission. It's as simple as that. Or are you afraid that your opponent is going to say no? You're basing your entire answer on a Q&A from a five year old Chapter Approved book, from a different edition of the game and a totally different set of circumstances (they're talking about not needing your opponent's permission to use them because the codex they were in did not require it).

They do indeed require your opponent's permission.

Alright so by that logic, since Im normally not a fan of SP Char., then I would be perfectly within my rights to not accept every army that I play against if it uses spec Char., even in GT, and many people field them. I was simply quoting for the topic to answer one of the questions at hand, and if hes playing by those rules no he doesnt need permission. If you were following this edition to the letter he wouldnt be able to field them at all, without permission or not.

gameandwatch wrote:Alright so by that logic, since Im normally not a fan of SP Char., then I would be perfectly within my rights to not accept every army that I play against if it uses spec Char., even in GT, and many people field them. I was simply quoting for the topic to answer one of the questions at hand, and if hes playing by those rules no he doesnt need permission. If you were following this edition to the letter he wouldnt be able to field them at all, without permission or not.

You're logic is flawed, as the website itself said(when it was up) that those specific characters needed permission, IIRC.

which characters, the red terror? What website? References? New rulings?

As he said, the GW website. The ruling you're referring to is for the old codex which actually had the Red Terror and Old One Eye in the book and simply confirmed that they did not need your opponent's permission since all special characters at that time did.

Again, the reason they need your opponent's permission is because they're not in the codex. I have no idea what special characters have to do with anything being discussed.

Ghaz, you miss the point that if I decide I dont want to play your tyranids, nothing is stopping me from refusing, making "opponents permission only" utterly redundant.

No, he gets it. But it is a pedantic argument. The rules are the rules; of course you can decide you will not play at all, and you can decide you will not play by the rules.
But that is not the same thing as saying you will play, and play by the rules; so it makes it okay for me to break the rules by using a Red Terror.

Gwar! wrote:Ghaz, you miss the point that if I decide I dont want to play your tyranids, nothing is stopping me from refusing, making "opponents permission only" utterly redundant.

As has been pointed out, I get it. It's you who's missing the point. Agreeing to a game is not agreeing to a game using anything your opponent wants to throw into his army list that he found on the internet, etc.

Not that some people won't try to pull that BS anyway. About four years back I had a friend who played FB and complained about how completely and utterly broken Lizardmen were, and absolutely no fun to play against.

Turns out his oppenent was using some homebrew army book he'd gotten off a forum somewhere, 'but it'd been made by the GW designers and so was totally legit!!' and convinced my friend it was totally allowable for him to use it, and he'd be a whiner if he refused.

ghaz, just to play devil's advocate for a minute.

There's nothing saying that you need to ask your opponents permission to use the Red Terror. The Red Terror rules say that you may use the Red Terror in a tyranid swarm above 1500 pts

There's no rule in the BRB that says he needs your permission.

Now I agree that the friendly thing to do is ask, but RAW there's nothing that says you have to ask.

And again, if it's not in the codex it requires your opponent's permission. What says that agreeing to a game means you can pull out anything from the internet that you want? RAW also doesn't say that agreeing to a game means you can use whatever you want either.

Raw doesnt say you have to agree to anything. You can decide "No I dont wanna play your 3 Monolith 1000 Point Necron army" even though the Necron coidex is "Legal"

Gwar! wrote:You can decide "No I dont wanna play your 3 Monolith 100 Point Necron army" even though the Necron coidex is "Legal"

Nice example of using an illegal list(it doesn't follow any FOC yet written) to attempt to beat home your extraneous point.

Seriously, Gwar, you're just being argumentative to be argumentative. Your entire argument is pedantic and irrelevant to every thread you've ranted about it. Why don't you try arguing logically for once?

I'm just saying where does it say if it's not in the codex you need your opponents permission?

40k being a permissive rules set you need a rule that says you can use a certain unit in an army. So you can't include a unit of space marines in a tyranid army.

But the rules for the red terror say it may be included in a tyranid swarm above 1500 pts. The rules permit this.

And where does it say that if it's not in the codex then it doesn't need your opponent's permission?

If it's not in the codex, it requires your opponent's permission because it is not a normal part of the army list. It's as simple as that. The rules do not say that it can be used without your opponent's permission.

The rules for the red terror mention nothing about your opponents permission. Thus I don't need your permission.

And how do you figure that? The rules don't say that I can't stomp on your miniatures and claim that I win automatically either, do they? No, but by your logic, it's perfectly fine. So once again, where do the rules say that I can use anything I happen to find on the internet without my opponet's permission?

Just for my own curiosity, where exactly are these rules for the Red Terror that everyone has found online? I can't find anything on GW's site besides the collector's models themselves.