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Hellfury wrote:Completely legal. Every army which contains vehicles has the option of doing just that.

First, pretty pictures.

Second, where is the "centre-point" of a Waveserpent?

At a guess, where half of its length and half of its width converge?

What is the actual footprint of a landraider? I.E. how wide is it, including the sponsons and how long is it( footprint of a rhino would be nice as well). I'm going to put this to bed once and for all with a VISIO demonstration.

I really don't think you are gaining that much by doing this(if you are pivoting accuratley), especially since you should not let your side sponsons hang over the deployment zone.


GG

Hellfury wrote:At a guess, where half of its length and half of its width converge?

Don't forget the hight! That's its Real Center point

Of course, if your doing it the cheap and easy way of just turning into an imaginary cube, I have a squadron of Advanced Mathematics Professors en route via dropship to escort you to the blue chair!

Hey Guys... why spend the money on the land raider... Put shriek in the squad and now you have a flanking or infiltrating Termies... talk about cheese. I will deploy 12 inches away and I can walk 6, run six and smack you in assault. .. gty first turn assault.

Astalado wrote:Hey Guys... why spend the money on the land raider... Put shriek in the squad and now you have a flanking or infiltrating Termies... talk about cheese. I will deploy 12 inches away and I can walk 6, run six and smack you in assault. .. gty first turn assault.

Only half Right. You can outflank, you cannot, RaW, Infiltrate.

I'll just go report to the local Commissar for execution in due to causing the hole this thread will now inevitable descend into.

And even if you COULD infiltrate, to start 12" away you have to be out of LOS, which means you either are moving through terrain in which case you have to make a Terrain test, moving anywhere from 1"-6", or have to move around the cover, which means you will end up about 10" or 9" away from the enemy. What happens then if you roll a 1 for run? Yeah, great 1st turn charge that worked out to be.

Hey Gwar.... Why could you not infiltrate... If you read my post I was saying why even take the Land raider. Just deploy by infiltrate with no land raider. Yes its a risk but a risk I will take. Give 10 termies with hammer and shield and 2,3 saves and risk that they might roll a 6 or less with 2d6 dice. Because you first roll 2d6 to get out of terrain an remember you can take the highest. Okay so that 2 chance to roll something more a 3. I like that odds. Then you get to run. That give you another chance to at least move 6 inches. Wow, I like my odds even more. Then you get the automatic six inches of assault. Even if the gods of dice hate you and you get charged, you still have the saves and shriek int. I will bet that they will still come out on top. If not they will tie up unit for a couple turns until you can get some support.


But, thanks for trying to make another person seam to be lower then your great majesty. I have seen this tatic work time and time again.

in order for Shike to be part of the Unit, he Must Deploy with them, or join them in reserves. These are the ONLY ways he can attach to the squad prior to the 1st movement phase.

If shike Deploys with the Terminators he cannot infiltrare because he is already Deployed.

If you don't deploy shike and wait until the deploy infiltrators part of deployment, then the terminators are already either deployed or in reserve.

Either way the terminators cannot Infiltrate.

Now, If I were you I would tell those people you have seen use this "tactic" to stop being cheaters.

Of course, if you wish to dispute this, please feel free to bring up Page numbers etc to support your view.

I have a question to all you stat hammer people. Could you all figure out the chances that you have on rolling 6 inches after a move through train check and then a run check. I want to know what the odd are of getting 6 inches, and 9 inches


Thank you

I am sorry I hereby stand corrected.. Thank you gwar and I will be discussing this with the last tr judge, i was involved in.

Hold on one second. Pg 92. Space Marine codex. as stated.


and I quote,

Shrike (and the models in his squad) benefit from the infiltrate special rule.

and I end quote

So by putting Shrike in the squad of termies the termies now deploy using infiltrate. Therefor they gain Infiltrate and now deploy in that phase. So during depolyment you make it nknown that Shrike is with the Terminators and they as a squad of models will deploy under infiltrate secial rule.

as you said before during deployment the squad has to deploy by the rules that govern them. So in the deploy phase. I say okay I hereby deploy Shrike with with my termies and there for now all of them have the infiltrate rule and will wait for part of deployment

Astalado wrote:as you said before during deployment the squad has to deploy by the rules that govern them. So in the deploy phase. I say okay I hereby deploy Shrike with with my termies and there for now all of them have the infiltrate rule and will wait for part of deployment

No, that is wrong. You cannot do that.

As I said, the only way to deploy shrike with the terminators is to either deploy him within 2" of the Termi Squad, or State he is attached to them while in reserve. You cannot do it any other way.

If you choose to deploy normally. You have to put the Terminators down before the infiltrators step, or put them in reserves. You cant say "I'm gonna infiltrate with my termies" because they do not have infiltrate until Shrike Joins them, which if deploying normally, they get the Infiltrate rule too late to be of use.

However, if you say "Termies in reserve, Shrike Attached" That is perfectly Acceptable, and they can outflank as per the rules.

Both the INAT FAQ and John Spencer from GW US have ruled that Shrike may infiltrate another unit, as that is the intent of the rule. It was just poor wording inthe SM dex, as it doesn't deal specifiaclly with HOW Shrike can deploy with a unit and give it infiltrate at the same time. Shrike is also allowed to give a unit infiltrate at most major tournies as well...at least in the US.

It will most likely be fixed in the next SM Faq. (hoperfully)

Gwar and Alerian pretty much summed it up. RAW, Shrike can't infiltrate another unit. However, hardly anybody plays it that way, including the tournament scene.

Alerian wrote:Both the INAT FAQ and John Spencer from GW US have ruled that Shrike may infiltrate another unit, as that is the intent of the rule. It was just poor wording inthe SM dex, as it doesn't deal specifiaclly with HOW Shrike can deploy with a unit and give it infiltrate at the same time. Shrike is also allowed to give a unit infiltrate at most major tournies as well...at least in the US.

It will most likely be fixed in the next SM Faq. (hoperfully)

No offence intended, but rules as intended have no bearing over a rules discussion. Yakface and John Spencer are free to play it however they want. I actually brought up the point in the FAQ Feedback thread that it is a rules change not a clarification (as it is stated in the FAQ) but I'm obviously not important enough to warrant a response. And as for John Spencer, he is a Box packer, nothing more. He doesn't have any authority whatsoever. Untill he starts publishing OFFICIAL GW SEAL STAMPED erratas, please refrain from using him to try and back up your arguments.

And even if GW bring out an FAQ, it doesn't mean diddly, unless they errata the rule. By GW's own admission FAQ's are nothing but a pile of house rules that have no bearing on the Rules as Written. It requires an Errata.

@Sourclams: Don't use that blanket statement "hardly anybody plays it that way". Every single Club In my local area I know of follows the Rules, not some made up rubbish.

So they basically treat Shrike's ability to infiltrate a unit as useless? In actual play and not just Internet rules nitpickery. That makes sense. I mean they obviously just wanted added useless verbiage in there.

Ignoring FAQs seems like a bad idea in a ruleset with the ambiguities and poor writing of a GW product.

jmurph wrote:So they basically treat Shrike's ability to infiltrate a unit as useless? In actual play and not just Internet rules nitpickery. That makes sense. I mean they obviously just wanted added useless verbiage in there.

Ignoring FAQs seems like a bad idea in a ruleset with the ambiguities and poor writing of a GW product.

I am not Ignoring FAQ's at all. Where is an official FAQ stating Shike can do this, rather than doing what is written in the rules?

GW's poor writing isn't an excuse to just ignore rules wholesale.

And it isn't a useless ability. It confers the Infiltrate rule to whatever unit he has joined in reserve, therefore allowing them to outflank.

And lets be honest, if you really need a 1 trick pony to even have a chance of wining a game of toy soldiers, your life needs some serious consideration.

If we get enough people to start using the term, when one says don't be a Gwar, they will be meaning don't be TFG.

Wait, what?

I don't see myself as TFG. All I am doing is presenting an argument with Concrete facts, while your counter it with ambiguous meanings and "Rules as Intended"

How does wanting to play by the Rules make me TFG?

Gwar! wrote:I am not Ignoring FAQ's at all. Where is an official FAQ stating Shike can do this, rather than doing what is written in the rules?

GW's poor writing isn't an excuse to just ignore rules wholesale.

And it isn't a useless ability. It confers the Infiltrate rule to whatever unit he has joined in reserve, therefore allowing them to outflank.

And lets be honest, if you really need a 1 trick pony to even have a chance of wining a game of toy soldiers, your life needs some serious consideration.

You state that the FAQs are nothing more than a collection of house rules and seem to poo poo them. I interpreted that as minimizing their usefulness. I suppose I was mistaken.

So the purpose of Infiltrate is to allow outflank instead of Infiltrate? Makes sense.

40K is full of 1 trick ponies and all of life deserves serious consideration. I don't think assault terms should be any better than they are (they are undercosted compared to regular terminators), but it seems kind of absurd to try to twist fairly straightforward rules to get to such an odd result.

General Hobbs: While I see where you are coming from,

Technically, Gwar is correct.

However, even me (as the RAW-lawyer on the INAT FAQ-committee) agreed with that ruling, because it was simply so blisteringly obviously a case of GW screwing up and writing bad rules. Plus, we've never heard of anyone trying to actually make that argument in anything but a theoretical sense.

Centurian99 wrote:Technically, Gwar is correct.

However, even me (as the RAW-lawyer on the INAT FAQ-committee) agreed with that ruling, because it was simply so blisteringly obviously a case of GW screwing up and writing bad rules. Plus, we've never heard of anyone trying to actually make that argument in anything but a theoretical sense.

|Oh dont get me wrong, I think its GW fething up as well. But what I think and what the rules say have no relation to each other

At the very least can you try and get it labelled as a rules change (which it is) rather than a clarification (Which it is not)

Gwar! wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:Technically, Gwar is correct.

However, even me (as the RAW-lawyer on the INAT FAQ-committee) agreed with that ruling, because it was simply so blisteringly obviously a case of GW screwing up and writing bad rules. Plus, we've never heard of anyone trying to actually make that argument in anything but a theoretical sense.

|Oh dont get me wrong, I think its GW fething up as well. But what I think and what the rules say have no relation to each other

At the very least can you try and get it labelled as a rules change (which it is) rather than a clarification (Which it is not)

Calling it a clarification in the INAT was due to some grey area in defining "his squad."

"His Squad" is the Squad he is attached too, as per the rules for IC. I cannot see how it could be interpreted in any other way. What was the thinking behind yiour grey area (not being snarky, actually genuinely interested as it is clear to me)

Gwar! wrote:"His Squad" is the Squad he is attached too, as per the rules for IC. I cannot see how it could be interpreted in any other way. What was the thinking behind yiour grey area (not being snarky, actually genuinely interested as it is clear to me)

Essentially, because there's a somewhat sustainable position that by saying "gives his squad infiltrate", Shrike can join a squad outside the normal deployment order and allow it to inflitrate with him, because of the "specific overriding the general" principle.

Not saying I agreed with it necessarily, but "specific overriding the general" can open up another whole can of worms, because GW rules are rarely clear as to what rules are being overridden.

Edited by the old man of Dakka as this is not appropriate.

Actually, Shrike and his unit can be deployed as Infiltrators. According to See, But Remain Unseen:

"Shrike (and models in his squad) benefit from the infiltrate special rule (see the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook)."

According to Independent Characters Joining & Leaving Units:

"Alternatively an independent character may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherency with them."

So you wait until infiltrators are deployed, and then you deploy Shrike in unit coherency with the unit of Assault Terminators.

No need to appeal to any principles beyond those laid out in the rules, such as some principle of "specific overriding the general".

Nurglitch wrote:Actually, Shrike and his unit can be deployed as Infiltrators. According to See, But Remain Unseen:

"Shrike (and models in his squad) benefit from the infiltrate special rule (see the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook)."

According to Independent Characters Joining & Leaving Units:

"Alternatively an independent character may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherency with them."

So you wait until infiltrators are deployed, and then you deploy Shrike in unit coherency with the unit of Assault Terminators.

No need to appeal to any principles beyond those laid out in the rules, such as some principle of "specific overriding the general".

The problem with that is that you could read the rules to read that shrike can't allow a unit without infiltrate to gain infiltrate, because that unit is already deployed before Shrike deploys.

How could you read them that way?

Nurglitch wrote:"Alternatively an independent character may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherency with them."

Right here is the problem. A character can begin the game with a unit by being deployed in coherency with that unit. Therefore, until he is deployed with the unit, he is not in the unit.

Since a unit of Terminators cannot normally be deployed as Infiltrators, you would have to either deploy them during normal deployment (therefore not infiltrating) or hold them in reserves (again, not infiltrating). There is no way that you can not deploy them during the normal deployment and then magically deploy them during the infiltrators step, because they don't have infiltrate until they are deployed with Shrike, and once they are deployed with him, it is too late (or too early) to infiltrate. It's a stupid Catch-22 that GW didn't think about when they defined how characters join/leave units at the beginning of the game.