Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Gwar! wrote:

BraveRifles wrote:I can. The KFF only provides a 5+ not a 4+ cover save.

Gee way to fail.

As said before, it gives Infantry a 5+, and makes vehicles Obscured (exact wording there, Obscured)

Pray Tell, what does obscured mean? -Flicks through rulebook- Page 62 "If a special rule or a piece of wargear confers to a vehicle the ability of being obscured even if in the open, this is a 4+ cover save, unless specified otherwise in the Codex."

The KFF doesn't say "Infantry 5+ and vehicles a 5+ Obscured." it says "Gives infantry 5+ and makes vehicles Obscured." No Catches, no Limitations, just Obscured, which is a 4+ cover save.

I don't necessarily disagree with you but you should be more careful with your quoting, the KFF says "A kustom force field gives all units within 6" of the mek a cover save of 5+, vehicles within 6" are treated as being obscured targets". This is a key word to the argument because units include vehicles, not just infantry.

You did read the bit that says "Vehicles within 6" count as obscured targets"? Not "have a cover save of 5+" or "are obscured with a save of 5+"

It only says obscured. Since there is nothing in the codex that says what Obscured is, we must logically revert to the rulebook definition, which is a 4+ save.

And lets not forget, even if it gives a 5+ cover save, it would ALSO give a 4+ due to it being obscured (since it doesnt specify you get the 5+ instead of the rulebook 4+) so would have to use the 4+ under the "Use the best save available" rule.

youbedead wrote:So we have answered that, now the question is, can the mek repair the stompa.

Rules as Written, I would say yes, on a 4+ the Drive is fully repaired "roll of 4+ the result is negated."

But since the codex wasnt written to work with Superheavies, you should clarify with your opponent(s) how you want it to work (whether its via RaW or a House Rule for that game)

Gwar! wrote:You did read the bit that says "Vehicles within 6" count as obscured targets"? Not "have a cover save of 5+" or "are obscured with a save of 5+"

It only says obscured. Since there is nothing in the codex that says what Obscured is, we must logically revert to the rulebook definition, which is a 4+ save.

And lets not forget, even if it gives a 5+ cover save, it would ALSO give a 4+ due to it being obscured (since it doesnt specify you get the 5+ instead of the rulebook 4+) so would have to use the 4+ under the "Use the best save available" rule.

I don't disagree, I think the comma clearly seperates those two phrases, and the 5+ save has nothing to do with the obscured affect given to vehicles, but the rule does clearly say that vehicles within 6" have a 5+ cover save, since they are units, it just then goes on to override this with another rule.

Drunkspleen wrote:

Gwar! wrote:You did read the bit that says "Vehicles within 6" count as obscured targets"? Not "have a cover save of 5+" or "are obscured with a save of 5+"

It only says obscured. Since there is nothing in the codex that says what Obscured is, we must logically revert to the rulebook definition, which is a 4+ save.

And lets not forget, even if it gives a 5+ cover save, it would ALSO give a 4+ due to it being obscured (since it doesnt specify you get the 5+ instead of the rulebook 4+) so would have to use the 4+ under the "Use the best save available" rule.

I don't disagree, I think the comma clearly seperates those two phrases, and the 5+ save has nothing to do with the obscured affect given to vehicles, but the rule does clearly say that vehicles within 6" have a 5+ cover save, since they are units, it just then goes on to override this with another rule.

So you agree with me that in any case they would have both the 5+ and 4+ and would have to use the 4+ anyway?

We've played about 2 dozen large apoc games, up to 40k points per side. After a getting that much experience, we ruled that the KFF does not effect Superheavies. Not because of hours of RAW, hair splitting debate. We play it that way because letting the Stompers get a 4+ cover save from piddly 100pt mekboy totally screws up the games. Apocalypse, much more than regular 40k, works best by having a group of people come together to play a game. It works worst when you try to insert as much cheese and yugioh style combos as you can. We also ruled a mek inside cannot repair a stomper, that's what the new "repair krew" upgrade takes care of. I'd rather not use the cheddar and RAW to beat opponents, it makes for less opponents, and less games. Apoc is too much work setting up, not to have fun.

Edit: and to clarify the 'we' part. It was the the 3 ork players that own 7 stompers between us who got together and decided to tone down the mekboy and kff rules. Too easy, not enough fun, not needed.

Kudos to you mate!

Though one could have easily said "Wait, your actually firing Lascannons at it rather than Destroyer Weapons? What are you nuts???" since D weapons ignore Cover anyway

I'd house rule it like this:

KFF makes the Stompa an obscured target but due to the Stompa's size it only receives a 5+ cover save.

If the Stompa has any operational power fields the KFF does not work at all due to feedback from the power field.

Units within 6" of the Stompa do not receive any cover save from the embarked KFF (again, due to the size.)

A Big Mek embarked in a Stompa may repair it with his Mek's tools but due to the complexity of the Stompa and raw power contained inside the Mek takes a wound (armor save possible) if his repair roll is less than a 4 and is killed outright (in addition to the stompa becoming shaken) if the roll is a "1."

Gwar! wrote:Kudos to you mate!

Though one could have easily said "Wait, your actually firing Lascannons at it rather than Destroyer Weapons? What are you nuts???" since D weapons ignore Cover anyway

Actually if you Read D weapons, it say they ignore models being Obscured from cover, the KFF isn't cover so there could be a decent argument that a D weapon would not negate a KFF provided save ( for a vehicle).

Narlix wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Kudos to you mate!

Though one could have easily said "Wait, your actually firing Lascannons at it rather than Destroyer Weapons? What are you nuts???" since D weapons ignore Cover anyway

Actually if you Read D weapons, it say they ignore models being Obscured from cover, the KFF isn't cover so there could be a decent argument that a D weapon would not negate a KFF provided save ( for a vehicle).

Yeah, except:

Ork Codex p. 34, Kustom Force Field wrote:
Vehicles within 6" are treated as being obscured targets

They are treated as models being obscured by cover - so the 4+ save would be negated by strength D weapons.

Not to mention the KFF gives a 5+ Cover save. Considering a D Weapon Ignores cover saves....

mikhaila wrote:We've played about 2 dozen large apoc games, up to 40k points per side. After a getting that much experience, we ruled that the KFF does not effect Superheavies.

Kudos. That's what APOC needs. There's not enough tales like this on dakka (and elsewhere). It's too easy to build some OTT combos in APOC. If you both want to play the game of one-up-manship, that's fine. But, sometimes, it's better to tone it down than to find a bigger, badder combo in the books.

youbedead wrote:So we have answered that, now the question is, can the mek repair the stompa.

We had one of our players run this setup and with the cheap mek repairing weapons and such and then they are able to fire the gun it was rather unbalanced also there is an upgrade in the WD with the new stompa's that allows repairing and it costs more point wise. We decided that in our group, that in order to be able to repair the stompa you would have to buy the upgrade. I had most of my army which was loaded with 1 terminus LR and 4 other landraiders plus 1Dev squad with Lascannons shoot at that particular stompa for 6 turns and it made it all the way across the board we eventually took it down with 2 TH/SS termie squads. So we came up with above house rule.

Super Heavy vehicles are still vehicles, and both Meks and TechMarines can repair them....kinda simple.

Alerian wrote:Super Heavy vehicles are still vehicles, and both Meks and TechMarines can repair them....kinda simple.

In your part of the universe, but not mine. Which is one of the wonderful things about apocalypse.

yeah i agree this rule is totally cheep but im doing it... this kinda relates to the rule of holding two squigoth (they count as ten models each) in a stompa. so you unload those each with their own orks... and youve just transported 20 orks a stompa and two squigoths with one model... its awsome....!!!!! i cant imagine how its possibly but ya

Buttlerthepug wrote:this kinda relates to the rule of holding two squigoth (they count as ten models each) in a stompa.

You're thinking of MONSTROUS Creatures(Like a Carnifex or Wraithlord) that allows them to take up the space of ten models. GARGANTUAN Creatures(like the Squiggoth) have no rules stating what they take up in a transport and so can not be transported.

Platuan4th wrote:

Buttlerthepug wrote:this kinda relates to the rule of holding two squigoth (they count as ten models each) in a stompa.

You're thinking of MONSTROUS Creatures(Like a Carnifex or Wraithlord) that allows them to take up the space of ten models. GARGANTUAN Creatures(like the Squiggoth) have no rules stating what they take up in a transport and so can not be transported.

I think Buttlerthepug is referring to the "Big Squiggoth" of Imperial Armour Apocalypse. It's a Monstrous creature that can transport 10 orks itself.

Wait a second, if the Squiggoth can hold 10 models and also takes up 10 models space....

Does that mean you could fit an infinite amount of squiggoths in a stompa???

Gwar! wrote:Wait a second, if the Squiggoth can hold 10 models and also takes up 10 models space....

Does that mean you could fit an infinite amount of squiggoths in a stompa???

hahaha god i'm going to have to be TFG next game of apox...
"ok i've deployed"
"???? what wheres your army"
"its this squigoth"
"fine die"
"ok i now disembark my squigoth that was being transorted in front"
"?What? fine die!"
"ok that all ok my turn right now i disembark the squiggoth that squiggoth was transporting and the squiggoth ...( ect)
...ok now none of them move so they may move (tank charge) and then shoot and now i'm going to charge whats left"

but come on only way to play this type of thing is to ignore things that are broken ... or you just can't play this type of game

A big Mek with a KFF riding in a stompa is cheap? well being as its only armor 12 and its power fields dont come back as oppossed to say a warhound with 3 void shields that come back and av 14 and the ability to negate the stompas cover save, yeah I guess thats pretty cheap. Would a Big Mek with a Kff and 5 burnas (3 of which are meks) riding in a stompa, giving it 4 chances every turn to repair on a 4+ with re-rolls be cheap also? you guys and your idea of cheap, it makes me laugh none of you would last one turn in our apoc games.

My stompers don't die as is. Of course, mine are armor 13 vs 12.)

A mek with a KFF IS cheap. It's a hundred points. Giving it the potential to protect an entire stomper mob for 100 pts is a bargain. AKA Cheap.

But in the end, what you or I think doesn't matter at all. It's apocalypse. You play your game your way, I play my games my way. I get a 40k to 100k game of Apoc in about every two weeks. We have fun. All that matters.

Platuan4th wrote:

Buttlerthepug wrote:this kinda relates to the rule of holding two squigoth (they count as ten models each) in a stompa.

You're thinking of MONSTROUS Creatures(Like a Carnifex or Wraithlord) that allows them to take up the space of ten models. GARGANTUAN Creatures(like the Squiggoth) have no rules stating what they take up in a transport and so can not be transported.

GAHH i dont have my apacolypse book with me but when i find it ill give a page... but the gargantuan squigoth from apac book had how many models it counts as... and somewhere near the end it talks about how crazy it can become with monstrous and or gargantuan creatures comming out of transports... believe me i think its the most slowed thing in the world but ive been cleared by my gw that its true... i doubt ill ever do it because it makes no sense, i can imagine one squigoth in one stompa.. but not two stompaz with a full unit of orks EACH both inside one stompa... then again....

Gwar! wrote:Wait a second, if the Squiggoth can hold 10 models and also takes up 10 models space....

Does that mean you could fit an infinite amount of squiggoths in a stompa???

Aren't super heavies the only transports capable of transporting Monstrous Creatures?

To da gob smaka, who plays Apocalypse competitively? "ohhhhh, you wouldn't last a turn where we play! we're like the gods of apocalypse!" That's like boasting about your Apples to Apples skills.

Morehammer wrote:This does bring up a good question which has a broad reaching effect. The distinction is that the Kustom force field affects "vehicles" and does not say "super heavy vehicles"

Gwar! wrote:Well, a super heavy vehicle is still a vehicle.

So a super heavy is a kind of vehicle...

Ramming is a kind of tank shocking...

Wait for it...

Kirbinator wrote:

Morehammer wrote:This does bring up a good question which has a broad reaching effect. The distinction is that the Kustom force field affects "vehicles" and does not say "super heavy vehicles"

Gwar! wrote:Well, a super heavy vehicle is still a vehicle.

So a super heavy is a kind of vehicle...

Ramming is a kind of tank shocking...

Wait for it...

Yes its a Kind of Tank Shocking, therefore Only tanks may ram.

The Deffrolla thing is Ambiguous, since although the Deffrolla says "when you tank shock" the rules for Ramming do not state either way if it is Inclusive or Exclusive of all the tank shocking rules. So what happens is that you are not "Tank Shocking" an enemy vehiocle (since they cannot be Tank Shocked) you are Ramming it (which While a Special KIND of tank shock, is not actually a tank shock). One reason for this as well is the fact the Ork Codex was written for the 4th edition ruleset.

The only correct solution to this is (as per the Rulebook) discuss before the game how to settle it, or if it comes up in game and you cannot agree, roll off and sort it out after the game.