Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Most people play it that ranged weapons (except pistols) are two-handed while close combat weapons and pistols are single-handed unless noted otherwise. I have no problem with that as a house rule, I just wish the rulebook actually clarified it.

Also note that the 3rd edition rulebook did have that section worded differently. From page 63 of the Warhammer 40,000 3rd edition rulebook:

+1 Two Weapons: Models in base-to-base contact with a pistol/close combat weapon in each hand have an extra +1 Attack.

I have no idea why they decided to change the wording for fourth edition.

Gwar! wrote:I didnt realise I had to, considering that the codex doesnt say its 2 handed, so I assume we just use the regular rules for power weapons, which allow the bonus attack. Pardon me if playing by the rules offends you.

You're not 'playing by the rules' because you don't have a rule that says a weapon is single-handed if it's not listed as being two-handed.

Ghaz wrote:Most people play it that ranged weapons (except pistols) are two-handed while close combat weapons and pistols are single-handed unless noted otherwise. I have no problem with that as a house rule, I just wish the rulebook actually clarified it.

Also note that the 3rd edition rulebook did have that section worded differently. From page 63 of the Warhammer 40,000 3rd edition rulebook:

+1 Two Weapons: Models in base-to-base contact with a pistol/close combat weapon in each hand have an extra +1 Attack.

I have no idea why they decided to change the wording for fourth edition.

Gwar! wrote:I didnt realise I had to, considering that the codex doesnt say its 2 handed, so I assume we just use the regular rules for power weapons, which allow the bonus attack. Pardon me if playing by the rules offends you.

You're not 'playing by the rules' because you don't have a rule that says a weapon is single-handed if it's not listed as being two-handed.

The thing is, its not being listed as Two handed. That's all that matters. The rule book has 3 phrases of interest here. The one regarding 2 hand weapons that disallows any bonus attack if it is a 2 handed weapon, the rules for Power Weapons and the rules for using a Normal and Special Weapon (All Found on Page 42).

Is the Burna a Two handed CCW: No, as it is not specified in the codex (like for example the Big Choppa)
Is the Burna a Single Handed CCW: Again, its not specified.
Is the Burna a Power Weapons: Yes.
Does using a Power Weapon that is not "Two Handed" and doesn't have a special rule saying otherwise (Like a Relic Blade) with a Pistol allow a Bonus attack: Yes.

So, by the rules, unless it is Specifically mentioned to be two handed, its not, and eligible for bonus attacks for being paired with another weapon (subject to the restrictions regarding PowerFists, Lightning Claws etc as well as a weapons own special rules). Please next time don't accuse me of "not playing by the rules" without backing it up.

Is the Burna a Two handed CCW: No, as it is not specified in the codex (like for example the Big Choppa)
Is the Burna a Single Handed CCW: Again, its not specified.
Is the Burna a Power Weapons: Yes.
Does using a Power Weapon that is not "Two Handed" and doesn't have a special rule saying otherwise (Like a Relic Blade) with a Pistol allow a Bonus attack: Yes.

A weapon that is fired with 2 hands does not become a single handed weapon when you want it to.
take the standard kroot rifles for example.
2 handed weapon that allows the +1 extra attack due to blades fitted on the weapon.


do not start that "it can because it doesent say i cant" argument, as that works both ways and gets us nowhere.

Is the Burna a Power Weapons: Yes.

no.
the nozzle is the power weapon, the burna is a form of flamethrower.

JD21290 wrote:

Is the Burna a Two handed CCW: No, as it is not specified in the codex (like for example the Big Choppa)
Is the Burna a Single Handed CCW: Again, its not specified.
Is the Burna a Power Weapons: Yes.
Does using a Power Weapon that is not "Two Handed" and doesn't have a special rule saying otherwise (Like a Relic Blade) with a Pistol allow a Bonus attack: Yes.

A weapon that is fired with 2 hands does not become a single handed weapon when you want it to.
take the standard kroot rifles for example.
2 handed weapon that allows the +1 extra attack due to blades fitted on the weapon.


do not start that "it can because it doesent say i cant" argument, as that works both ways and gets us nowhere.

Is the Burna a Power Weapons: Yes.

no.
the nozzle is the power weapon, the burna is a form of flamethrower.

No, the "Nozzle" isn't anything. Please stop bringing fluff into a rules debate.

From a Rules standpoint, the Burna "Counts as a Power Weapon".

Nowhere does it say the Burna is a two handed weapon.

Having a Power Weapon that isn't two handed (since the codex never says it is, it isn't. Doesn't mean its one handed, but its not two handed. That's what matters) along with a pistol allows a bonus attack, as detailed in the rule regarding fighting with a Special Weapon and Normal Weapon on page 42.

ok, lets do it your way shall we, no fluff atall.

WYSIWYG, its a rule right? burna boyz hold the burnas with 2 hands.
if it was 1 handed they would also have a close combat weapon in thier rules rather than just the burna.

and now down to your style: nowhere does it say that burna's are 1 handed weapons.



allthough, all of this so far over a single extra attack from a big mek, seems kind of petty

JD21290 wrote:

Is the Burna a Power Weapons: Yes.

no.
the nozzle is the power weapon, the burna is a form of flamethrower.

Yes, and RAI wise you are probably correct, but the problem lies in the lack of elaboration in the Ork codex.

It just says "A burna may be used in the shooting phase with the profile below, or as a power weapon in an assault." And since there is no further explanation of what kind of power weapon it, is or any additional special rules like in the relic blade example, we must use the term generically. This brings us back to page 42: Special Close Combat Weapons which implies that they can be used with another CCW (or one-handed weapon as the case may be) for a bonus attack in close combat.

There is nothing in the codex that says a burna is a two-handed weapon, the only evidence to support such claims are the burna boy models,but as we've established a few times already: common sense rarely enters into these disputes.

Fluff-wise there is no such thing as consistency when it comes to Ork equipment, and their engineering skills (think it works and it will!) could be capable of manufacturing one-handed burnas.

EDIT: I has been ninja'd.

@ JD: Yes, WYSIWYG would be an issue for Burna boys, but they are also not armed with a slugga as well. The discussion was about Big Meks who can be armed with a burna and a slugga, which would have to be converted anyways and could be modeled as such.

JD21290 wrote:ok, lets do it your way shall we, no fluff atall.

WYSIWYG, its a rule right? burna boyz hold the burnas with 2 hands.
if it was 1 handed they would also have a close combat weapon in thier rules rather than just the burna.

and now down to your style: nowhere does it say that burna's are 1 handed weapons.

allthough, all of this so far over a single extra attack from a big mek, seems kind of petty

So what about the Mek with a Burna and Pistol? If I model him with the Burna In one hand, does that make it a one handed weapon?

And yes you are correct, nowhere does it say they are a one handed weapon. It says they are a Power Weapon. Read the rules for Power Weapons and close combat weapons in general please. Unless it is said to be two handed, it is not two handed. It doesn't matter that its not being stated as 1 handed, because its only being 2 handed that makes a difference.

So what about the Mek with a Burna and Pistol? If I model him with the Burna In one hand, does that make it a one handed weapon?

if i model my marines with a bolter in 1 hand, does this mean i can use a bolter and CC weapon for +1 attack?



no Gwar!, it works both ways.
if a weapon does not state how it functions (single or 2 handed) then you cannot just say it is, it also does not state it isnt, meaning GW need to FAQ this.
it is part of a weapon that allready has a primary function.


allthough, i wouldnt really care if someone took this against me, +1 attack from a mek is hardly effective, also, your giving up the option for a KFF or SAG to take it, so im more than happy for people to do this

JD21290 wrote:if a weapon does not state how it functions (single or 2 handed) then you cannot just say it is, it also does not state it isnt, meaning GW need to FAQ this.
it is part of a weapon that allready has a primary function.

Emperors bowels you arent listening.

I have not at any point said that the Burna is a One handed or Two handed weapon. It is a Power Weapon. Power Weapons that are not 2 Handed Allow the bonus attack. Read the rules on page 42.

What part of that do you not understand. It doesn't have to be 1 handed, its just has to not be 2 Handed.

Ghaz wrote:

+1 Two Weapons: Engaged models with two singlehanded weapons (typically a close combat weapon and/or pistol in each hand) get an extra +1 attack.

I see nothing here that would disallow a single-handed Assault weapon from granting an extra attack. Sure, some of the later rules may cast some doubt on the subject, but they don't definitively answer the question. Plus in 4th edition any two single-handed weapons would have provided the extra attack.

Everyone takes just that part whilst ignoring something else in the rules on the very same page:

"Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use in close combat, with the rules given below for the different possible combinations."

Emphasis mine. There are no rules allowing models to use Assault Weapons in Combat at all, only Pistols(with exceptions such as the Burna) have a relevant rule allowing them to be used in Combat. Just being 1-handed isn't enough, it has to be able to be used in close combat(with rules to back it up) as well.

This brings us back to page 42: Special Close Combat Weapons which implies that they can be used with another CCW (or one-handed weapon as the case may be) for a bonus attack in close combat

The rules you're referring to have nothing to do with how many hands it takes to use a weapon. By your logic, a power fist would be a two handed weapon if you tried to use it with anything other than another power fist. It's not, obviously. How many hands it takes to use a weapon is a completely separate set of rules.

Platuan4th wrote:
Everyone takes just that part whilst ignoring something else in the rules on the very same page:

"Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use in close combat, with the rules given below for the different possible combinations."

Emphasis mine. There are no rules allowing models to use Assault Weapons in Combat at all, only Pistols(with exceptions such as the Burna) have a relevant rule allowing them to be used in Combat. Just being 1-handed isn't enough, it has to be able to be used in close combat(with rules to back it up) as well.

I agree with you whole-heartedly - this is how it was intended and how it should be played.

However, later on that same page (p.42) under "two normal close combat weapons" refers the reader back to page 37, which is where the passage Ghaz quoted about two single-handed weapons is located. Which is why its simply a case of murky and inconsistent writing on behalf of GW imho.

Ghaz wrote:

This brings us back to page 42: Special Close Combat Weapons which implies that they can be used with another CCW (or one-handed weapon as the case may be) for a bonus attack in close combat

The rules you're referring to have nothing to do with how many hands it takes to use a weapon. By your logic, a power fist would be a two handed weapon if you tried to use it with anything other than another power fist. It's not, obviously. How many hands it takes to use a weapon is a completely separate set of rules.

...Eh?

I don't follow what you're trying to say.

The Power fist has a special exemption, on the same page:

BRB p. 42 -A Normal and a Special Weapon wrote:"Power fists, thunder hammers, and lightning claws are an exception to this. Only a second power fist, thunder hammer, or lightning claw can confer a bonus attack to a model equipped with one of these weapons"

By the way, since very few weapons are defined as either one or two handed, the default is...

Neither.

Simple. You're trying to use the rules that let you gain an extra attack with a power weapon as proof it's single handed. By that logic if you can't get a bonus attack it must be a two handed weapon. Your logic makes a powe fist a two handed weapon with anything other than another power fist. That's false. How many hands a weapon takes to use has no bearing on the rules you're trying to use to prove that a power weapon is a single handed weapon unless noted othewise.

Centurian is correct. There is no 'default'.

Ok. Only, I wasn't trying to prove that "if you can't get a bonus attack it must be two-handed."

I was trying to prove that a Big Mek armed with a burna (used as a power weapon) and a slugga would gain a bonus attack in close combat.

The two-handed business was addressing JD's argument that burnas were two-handed (and as such did not benefit from the rules under the heading "Fighting with two Single-handed Weapons" on p. 42)because the burna boy models wielded them with two hands.

Burnas, when used in close combat as power weapons fall under the "special close combat weapon" category. If a model were then armed with a burna and a pistol, it would fall under the "A Normal and a Special Weapon" rules on p. 42.

The power fist is an exemption to this rule - as I quoted earlier in the thread.

I agree that there is no "default" for one or two handed weapons.
Honestly, I think that we all agree - mostly anyways - but the main points have been muddled in secondary arguments.

Now to hop in the time machine for a second:

As to your earlier assertion about one-handed assault weapons potentially being able to grant bonus attacks when used in conjunction with a CCW - the rulebook is murky as we've established, but the quick reference sheet in the back of the book is very clear:

Under Weapon Type Summary: Pistol

"May fire once in the Shooting phase and then assault the same enemy unit in the Assault Phase.
Counts as an additional weapon in close combat"

Weapon Type Summary: Assault

"May fire in the Shooting phase and then assault the same enemy unit in the Assault phase."

And as I've been trying to point out it's not because of how many hands it takes to use a power weapon that allows it to gain an extra attack just like it's not how many hands it takes to use a power fist that prevents it from gaining an extra attack if not used with another power fist.

As for the Quick Reference Sheet it's just that. A reference. The actual rules will always trump the reference sheet and nothing exempts assault (or heavy) weapons from providing an extra +1 attack in close combat.

Ghaz wrote:And as I've been trying to point out it's not because of how many hands it takes to use a power weapon that allows it to gain an extra attack just like it's not how many hands it takes to use a power fist that prevents it from gaining an extra attack if not used with another power fist.

No, the number of hands needed to use a power weapon has nothing to do with allowing it to gain an extra attack - it is using it in conjunction with another close combat weapon.
The thing is: the rules for gaining that bonus attack by using the power weapon with another weapon fall under the rules for "Fighting with Two Single Handed Weapons."

And that section begins with (yet again):

BRB p. 42 wrote:Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use in close combat, with the rules given below for the different possible combinations. Of course, if a model is using a two-handed close combat weapon (such as a rifle's butt or a two-handed battle axe), it may not use it together with another weapon

As to the reference sheet: yes, it is just a reference sheet, but the fact that it is physically in the rulebook adds to its credibility somewhat in my opinion, but to each his own I suppose.

But at this point we're not contributing anything at all to the original topic of this thread.

We are just shouting the same arguments at one another which, given the way its been going so far, will not likely persuade the other party to change their view.
So, I've said my piece - I'm done unless you want to start a new YMDC thread on the topic of one-handed assault weapons granting bonus attacks when used with another one-handed weapon or one of the other issues which has come up in this discussion.

Soooo...

What? We all agree that Burna+Slugga confers a bonus attack?

hmm... so are we going to keep going back and fourth until a special guest shows up and converts everyone to that side... not trying to be a smart-aleck, just relatively new to the forums as I have been on for less than 1 year...

The reason I am asking is that I was thinking about making my HQ slot have a PW without spending enough points to buy a 10-15 Ork strong mob... and my recent games have shown me that a Warboss with a PK and a Nob with a PK in the same unit is pretty much overkill for the points that it is worth compared to what the mob can take on...

DebonaireToast wrote:No, the number of hands needed to use a power weapon has nothing to do with allowing it to gain an extra attack - it is using it in conjunction with another close combat weapon.

Yes, it does have everything to do with it because you only get the bonus attack for using two single-handed weapons. You can't use it in conjunction with another weapon if it's a two-handed weapon.

The thing is: the rules for gaining that bonus attack by using the power weapon with another weapon fall under the rules for "Fighting with Two Single Handed Weapons."

And that section never once mentions power weapons, does it? No. It never mentions power weapons. So once again, look at the rules for power weapons under the heading "Special Close Combat Weapons" and tell us where it says that they're all single-handed weapons unless noted otherwise.

Well...I said I was done...but- gahh..

Ghaz wrote:

DebonaireToast wrote:No, the number of hands needed to use a power weapon has nothing to do with allowing it to gain an extra attack - it is using it in conjunction with another close combat weapon.

Yes, it does have everything to do with it because you only get the bonus attack for using two single-handed weapons. You can't use it in conjunction with another weapon if it's a two-handed weapon.

...You realize that I said the exact same thing? Even quoted that rule? Nice selective quoting - again.

and how does that mesh with your earlier argument that:

Ghaz wrote:it's not because of how many hands it takes to use a power weapon that allows it to gain an extra attack

Ghaz wrote:

The thing is: the rules for gaining that bonus attack by using the power weapon with another weapon fall under the rules for "Fighting with Two Single Handed Weapons."

And that section never once mentions power weapons, does it? No. It never mentions power weapons. So once again, look at the rules for power weapons under the heading "Special Close Combat Weapons" and tell us where it says that they're all single-handed weapons unless noted otherwise.

Actually - it does mention a "normal weapon and a special weapon," and power weapons are listed under the header "Special Close Combat Weapons" on the same page.

A normal and a special weapon, p. 42 wrote:
These models gain one additional attack. All of their attacks, including the bonus attacks benefit from the special weapon's bonuses.

Ghaz wrote:Yes, it does have everything to do with it because you only get the bonus attack for using two single-handed weapons.

That's 4th edition thinking, Ghaz.

Page 37 says that you get +1 attack for using two single-handed weapons. Fair enough, although it's important to note that it doesn't say that you only ever get +1 for two single-handed weapons, and can't get it for any other reason.

Page 42, which outlines specifically how the different categories of weapons work actually says that you get +1 attack for having a Special CCW and a Normal CCW. It does not require them to be single-handed... it just requires them to not be two-handed.

So a model armed with a Burna (power weapon) and slugga (pistol) gains +1 attack.

He doesn't get +1 for having two single-handed weapons, since neither of his weapons are ever actually defined as such.
He gets +1 because he has a Special CCW and a Normal CCW, and neither are defined as two-handed.

DebonaireToast wrote:...You realize that I said the exact same thing? Even quoted that rule? Nice selective quoting - again.

No. You did not say the exact same thing unless you're in some alternate bizarro universe. Saying "... the number of hands needed to use a power weapon has nothing to do with allowing it to gain an extra attack ..." is not the same as "... Yes, it does have everything to do with it..." So once again, the number of hands needed to use a power weapon has EVERYTHING to do with allowing it to gain an extra attack. If it's not single-handed, it will not provide an extra attack.

DebonaireToast wrote:...Actually - it does mention a "normal weapon and a special weapon," and power weapons are listed under the header "Special Close Combat Weapons" on the same page.

And yet again, there are other 'special close combat weapons' than power weapons. It still does not mean that every special close combat weapon is single-handed. All that means is that if the model is using a single-handed normal weapon and a single-handed special weapon then those rules apply. They in no way, shape or form mean that all special weapons default to being single-handed.

insaniak wrote:Page 42, which outlines specifically how the different categories of weapons work actually says that you get +1 attack for having a Special CCW and a Normal CCW. It does not require them to be single-handed... it just requires them to not be two-handed.

Which requires an undefined third type of weapon. So where are these "not one or two handed" weapons mentioned in the rules? Also pay attention to the header that says "FIGHTING WITH TWO SINGLE-HANDED WEAPONS".

Ghaz wrote:

insaniak wrote:Page 42, which outlines specifically how the different categories of weapons work actually says that you get +1 attack for having a Special CCW and a Normal CCW. It does not require them to be single-handed... it just requires them to not be two-handed.

Which requires an undefined third type of weapon.

No it doesn't.

All the rules require is that the weapons not be two-handed.

It doesn't matter what type of weapon it is beyond that. If the model has a Special CCW and a normal CCW, they get +1 attack unless either of those weapons are two-handed.

So where are these "not one or two handed" weapons mentioned in the rules?

They're not. That's kind of the point.

Most weapons simply aren't defined any more. There's absolutely no way of knowing whether most specific weapons are one or two handed.

Fortunately, it doesn't matter. If the rules only specifically prohibit the +1 attack if the weapon is two handed, then you only don't get the bonus if the weapon is specifically listed as two-handed. If it's listed as something else, or not listed as requiring any specific number of hands, then the rules simply doesn't apply.

Also pay attention to the header that says "FIGHTING WITH TWO SINGLE-HANDED WEAPONS".

I did. Given that they don't actually define the majority of weapons in the game as single-handed weapons any more, the only logical conclusion is that the header is referring to 'single-handed' as being the 'default' mode of close combat weapon.

Otherwise, you don't actually get the bonus with anything if you're using a 5th ed Codex, as nothing is defined by the rules as specifically being single-handed.

Yes, it does require a third type of weapon. What support do you have that a weapon can be neither a one- or two-handed weapon? Why don't the rules ever mention that a weapon doesn't have to be either one- or two-handed? You're trying to cover GW's shoddy writing with rules that you can't prove exists.

Otherwise, you don't actually get the bonus with anything if you're using a 5th ed Codex, as nothing is defined by the rules as specifically being single-handed.

Your own position does the exact same thing. You wouldn't use the rules for fighting with two single-handed weapons if you're not fighting with two single-handed weapons. It doesn't say "FIGHTING WITH TWO NON TWO-HANDED WEAPONS" after all.

Ghaz wrote:What support do you have that a weapon can be neither a one- or two-handed weapon?

Other than the fact that the rules don't require it, you mean?

What support do you have that a weapon must be defined as a set number of hands?

Why don't the rules ever mention that a weapon doesn't have to be either one- or two-handed?

Why don't the rules ever mention that a weapon can be painted blue?

Because it doesn't matter. If you follow the rules as presented, the number of hands required to hold a close combat weapon only matters if the weapon is specifically defined as two-handed.

Your own position does the exact same thing. You wouldn't use the rules for fighting with two single-handed weapons if you're not fighting with two single-handed weapons.

My own position does nothing of the sort, because my own position puts an interpretation on the meaning of the section title that allows the rules to actually function.
Yours stops any model from any 5th edition codex from ever receiving the +1 bonus for two weapons.

One of these is useful. You can call that 'covering up' for GW if you like. I'll call it reading the rules in a way that allows the game to not fall into lunacy. Everybody wins.

All these posts and no one has made this connection:

P.37; Number of attacks; "+1 Two weapons: Engaged models with two single handed weapons (typically a close combat weapon and/or a pistol) get an extra +1 attack."

"Typically a close combat weapon and/or a pistol" must mean that close combat weapons and pistols are single-handed. Not normal close combat weapons, not special close combat weapons, just close combat weapons. So, by this reasoning, only weapons that specifically say that they disallow an additional attack or say they are two-handed don't give an additional attack.

Hey I would like to note there is no such thing as a single handed power weapon. Only two handed or just a power weapon. A burna is called a power weapon if you did not shoot, not a 2 handed PW and as so it falls under the rules of a Pw and a CCW.

Ian1138 wrote:"Typically a close combat weapon and/or a pistol" must mean that close combat weapons and pistols are single-handed.

Not quite.

It means that single-handed weapons are generally close combat weapons or pistols. That doesn't automatically work in reverse.

Apples are typically green or red. That doesn't mean that everything that is green or red is an apple. Nor does it mean that apples can only be green or red. Just that most apples are green or red.