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Actually, here in the US a lot of the concern about music lyrics and violent content comes from a broad range of the political spectrum. Right wingers tend to be more concerned with sex, and left wingers tend to be more concerned with violence. Freud would have a field day with this one....

ShumaGorath wrote:
I'm not so certain here that the correlation isn't in fact the causation. I know that after a good marathon of power rangers as a child I just wanted to go out and beat the crap out of things. I get similarly charged now at 22 after watching a good martial arts film. The same can be said personally for many violent video games, after a good amount of counterstrike I act slightly differently. I believe that peoples behavior is simply attuned to best fit their environment, and when one goes from an interactive simulation of extreme violence a little bit of that environment carries into the next in their behavior. Problematically I can easily see how a mentally disturbed individual would have a hard time separating acceptable behaviors from one to the next (not citing specific illnesses here, just a generalization), and I can see how an addictive personality could find it difficult to cope outside the game when a large portion of his/her life experience is made inside of it. This of course isn't really an issue with videogames so much as it is with escapist forms of media. In the past people simply fell into books or films. Though I can certainly see how with escalating levels of realism and social interaction the environment of the "game" could progressively become harder and harder to separate from the environment of reality. They are designed to be hard to put down after all.

I know what you mean Shuma. When I watch, let's say Equlibrium again, and after it's done I walk away and think "wow, that was awesome! I wish I could do stuff like that.", but it ends with the fantasy. I played a bunch of violent games when I was younger (my parents talked to my older brother about it who said it would be okay), but I can say that I was raised pretty good by my parents and family to know that hurting people is no fun. I know that, we all know that, but that doesn't change the fact that we enjoy watching Cleric Preston kick ass and take names.

mcfly wrote:In my opinion, after a good game of team Fortess 2 I sometimes go around saying KAAA-bOOOM! and thinking of the best way to get a grenade over a wall(i play demoman) but i dont act out, because violence isnt an answer. Yes, gaming make you feel a little different afterwards but so do movies and books. The people that want to end all violent video games are wrong. There are many people who just enjoy doing new things and seeing new worlds within video games, me included.
As to your question of wheres you limit, Anung, when I play Fable or Fable 2 I always play as a good guy, because I feel bad about killing innocents. So, for me the limit is killing people that are not involved with my character at all. My grandmother agrees with the "end everything violent" people, and whenever I go around her, she tells me about how games and violent movies are bad. So I've just given up explaining to anyone why violent games are so much fun, instead I just nod my head and then walk away before getting angry at them for judging me. My opinion. Who's next?

And Phloop, congrats on staying clean for 2 months.

Same with me, when I started playing Fallout 3, I wanted to play more like a good guy, but not a nice one and I ended up doing every good deed that came under my nose, just because I really enjoy playing someone like that, because in real life I don't have the possiblity to be a hero like that.
I usually start games like Fallout or Mass Effect a 2nd time, just to try out the evil way, but I never enjoy it as much as my first run as a good character. Especially since NPCs have become so realistic these days (mostly thanks to good voice acting), sometimes I feel really bad if I cheat them out of something or do something similar.
Then again, I know a lot of people who enjoy playing evil characters in games like that, but that doesn't mean that they're unsocial or anything.

LuciusAR wrote:Now in Germany many violent games are outright banned. I certainly don't want to see this anywhere else and with good reason. Mainly that I don't think the State should have any right, at all, to tell an adult what media (Be it Games, Books or Films) they may or may not have access to. No matter how well intentioned they may be in restricting me, the day Big Brother decides that I shouldn't be allowed to play GTA, is the day I live in a police state.

What about Manhunt? I thought that game was even banned in England? On the other hand, I play Madworld, and that game is about violence and not really anything else.

I always go on a killing rampage in those games.

It just gets boring after, like, 5 minutes of chasing people around with a sledgehammer hammer though.

Then I play a regular person.

Polonius wrote:of course, 20 years ago many of the same people were telling society that D&D would turn their children to satanism.

What do you mean 20 years ago? People are still doing that. I don't know how many times I've seen stuff about teenage killers and they talk about how they'd play role playing games like D&D and Vampire and thus are disconnected from society and reality.

Polonius wrote:
I'm against banning things, but increasing the amount of Info that parents have in terms of buying games for kids would help. As always, parental choice and supervision are key.

This, a hundred times. The problem with video-game ratings, as opposed to movie ratings, is that unlike with movies, parents aren't necessarily involved in the experience with the children. They don't notice the ESRB (the US Game Ratings system) blurb at the bottom. They're not as familiar with the ratings system as they are with typical movie ratings which they would be familiar with since they also watch movies and are informed about the ratings at all times.

Too often (again, not labelling all parents here, just some noticeable ones) parents allow television and videogames to be baby-sitters for children and are SHOCKED to learn what kind of filth and violence exists in these programs. These parents also tend to be the ones who are very vocal about how "music/videogames/movies have turned our little angels into violent sociopaths". The problem with this? The media eats this up. They love sensationalizing it. They love a story where "innocent families" are shocked by some tragic event, and this "big, bad industry" is at fault for causing it all. Sometimes (not always - there're always cases of just messed up kids/people), parents have just got to man up and admit that they're not as great parents as they think they are. It's like the parents who leave behind their little 'uns at a GW store/FLGS. Again, it's not just bad parenting at fault - in a lot of cases, it's an individual issue that these people have, which is sometimes augmented by bad parenting.

Violence in video-games and other media is for me, entertainment. It is escapism. I go to see movies like 300 and Terminator 2 and Desperado, because sometimes, I wish I could be that bad-ass and take on overwhelming odds and come out on top. It's nice to leave behind one's mundane life to imagine oneself as "the Hero", leaping through the air gun's a blazing, bullets just gliding past you while you take out a horde of enemies. I play violent video-games to vent out anger that would probably otherwise cause me to actually hit someone in real-life. But I recognize the disconnect between these experiences and real-life. There is a level of acknowledgement that what I'm seeing is just make believe and not real. It's this knowledge that what I am witnessing is "not real" that allows me to enjoy it, where as I'm made upset by news of shootings - this layer of artificiality. It's the reason why I prefer campy action flick's like "Shoot'em Up" and B-horror films like "Dead Rising" as opposed to some of the "Saw" series and other such films. Once the imagery becomes a little too real, it loses the entertainment value for me. But this is me as an adult (well, just barely), consciously making these assessments. It's at moments like these when I feel that parental guidance is most necessary to ensure children understand all the ramifications of the things that they see in m movies/videogames.

Anung Un Rama wrote:I recently saw a mother at a store with a kid who looked about 12 years old max. and she went to the counter with the new GTA for DS, which also has a 18+ rating here. I was considering to talk to her about that, looking back, I don't know why I didn't.

Several months back when I was at my local game store just browsing around, some 12 year old kid came up to me asking me if I could buy a game for him - I tersely told him 'no', despite his pleading. I saw him about 5 mins later asking some other guy the same thing - I think he was consenting to the kid. I should've probably said something at the time as well.

There was a great comment in one of our computer mags about video games and real life effects.

"If video games had any real effect on people's behaviour, then the generation that grew up with pac-man would be (nowadays) swallowing little pills and listening to repetitive electronic music."

... Right, I'll get me hat.

We have regs here on certain games (age level/limits) and few stores ever enforce them. I've seen many 12-14 year olds buy the 15+ games over the counter.

Anung Un Rama wrote:
What about Manhunt? I thought that game was even banned in England? On the other hand, I play Madworld, and that game is about violence and not really anything else.

Ah yes, touché.

I remember this and I remember being very concerned with the BBFC's decision. I also remember being rather worried that the main reaction online from the gaming community was along the lines of "Who cares, Manhunt was crap anyway". I know it's a bit of a sweeping statement to say "today it's Manhunt 2 but tomorrow it could be GTA5!", but I really don't like giving the state too much power when it comes to the freedom of information and media. That the game is crap is really neither hear nor there.

Incidentally I was under the assumption that the purpose of the BBFC was to classify media, not to censor it. A board of censorship is something I intend to fight with every fibre of my being.

An unstable mind will draw its influence from the most unusual sources. Charles Manson was influences by the Beatles and Peter Sutcliffe was convinced Jesus told him to kill women. However they were clearly messed up to begin with and they would have drawn their influences from one thing or another. Banning the Beatles would not have prevented Charles Manson from killing someone.

This goes a tad off-topic, but I think I should make something clear about cencorship in Germany:

We have two organizations, whose job it is to "rate" games and movies. The USK and the FSK. Games and movies can get ratings of 0, 6, 12, 16 and 18. There's also "no youth" which is basically the same as 18, but nobody really gets the difference.
Both organisations have about 25 important members and everytime a title needs to get rated, 5 of those people decide about it. If you don't like the rating you can try again. Both, Dead Space and GTA4 needed 3 trys to find the right people who agreed on a "no youth" rating.
If a title doesn't get rated, probably because it's too violent, then they usually get "indiziert" pretty fast. They get put on a list and you're not allowed to advertise it and put it on the shelves. Theoretically, you can still sell them "under the counter" or display them in a seperate room where minors can't get in, but most stores here don't have that. At least when it comes to "regular" violent stuff.
If a game is "indiziert" any person can ask for it to be banned and then a judge gets to decide. Once it's banned, it's illegal to sell here.
Most major gaming publishers decide not to release a title if they don't get at least the "no youth" rating, in fear of the legal backlash if the game gets banned.

Most stuff can still be orderd over the Internet, but there's one problem. If a game is not rated and therefore, cannot be advertised, there is no possibility to access downloadable content for it.
Short version: No Gears of War 2 in Germany means no extra maps for it in Germany.

That all sounds pretty fraggin' crappy to me, Anung Un Rama. I hadn't realize it was so easy to censor games here. I'm glad I haven't wanted to buy any games here. If I'd picked up TF2 here and got the rubber ducky explosions I would have been straight up pissed.

I agree with whoever said it - rubber ducky explosions and other nonsense like that is probably worse than showing actual gore, as it trivializes the violence even more. It's okay to shoot someone with a grenade launcher, since it's just going to throw a bunch of rubber duckies everywhere! No harm done!

Are violent movies easy to censor here too?

I'm not cool with censorship, especially when it comes to art.

On a related note, the Resident Evil 5 Versus mode won't come out in Germany because it didn't get a "no youth" rating. The main game was released uncut.

A question for those UK gamers out there. I noticed on my english version of valve's Orange Box, that there's another logo on it which marked the game as okay for 15 year olds.
I thought in the UK you also used the Pegi raiting? Can anyone give me any details on this other rating board?

That's the British Board of Film Classification. They rate our films and DVDs, and so they're more recognisable to the general public.

As an example, a videogame-illiterate parent is more likely to take note on seeing the big red circle and 18 then having it displayed in a tiny box in the corner.

True story: I once bought an 18-rated game (carmageddon, it was crap) for the N64 when I was about 12. The staff couldn't find the age-rating bit, and they did look for it - which just goes to show, information is key.

Thanks Dread.

I actually was talking about the big red circle:

So was I. That's the symbol the BBFC uses.

Okay thanks, that's what I needed to know.

The fault is always the games, never the kind of education they received. My parents were rarely home because they worked from 9 a.m. till 9 p.m., and I could watch tv, miss classes, and play violent games (back then Slaughterhouse was the uber violent game) and I don't think I or any of my brothers went wrong.

I wonder what they'll ban in Germany if something like this happens again. School?

In the words of Cartman from South Park, "parents shouldn't depend on T.V. to raise their kids". Very very true.

I wonder what they'll ban in Germany if something like this happens again. School?

80% of all amok runners had bread for breakfast.

Anung Un Rama wrote:

I wonder what they'll ban in Germany if something like this happens again. School?

80% of all amok runners had bread for breakfast.

HOLY HORNY HORNBILLS, BATMAN! I think we've cracked the case! Vote for me. Do it.

How come no-one saw that one? Let's do a cross-case comparison with the other cases from around the world, we might be on to something!

Sincerely, it's ridiculous and when I heard the news about video game banning I was shocked. So, the only way we'll avoid these situations now is by removing any possibility of a bad influence. Why not? It's easier than trying to educate people and see if parents are acting as they should.