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anticitizen013 wrote:So I've heard some pretty good things about this game... and I was tempted to get into it at some point. Would it be wise to wait until this edition of the rules is officially released to take a gander at it?

I'd (if possible) like to get someones personal experience on how they would compare this to 40k. Rules, models, etc...

Hmm, if only there were a Podcast someplace that had covered this very topic....

(Shameless plug coming)

Wait there is: The D6 Generation

Episode 1b: GW vs Privateer as companies... http://www.thed6generation.com/index.php?post_id=344664

Episode 5: Warmachine Overview (we compare it to 40k quite a bit)
Part 1: http://www.thed6generation.com/index.php?post_category=D6G%20Podcast
Part 2: http://www.thed6generation.com/index.php?post_id=344679

Lucky Ep 13: Hordes... http://www.thed6generation.com/index.php?post_id=367136

Enjoy!!!

Less models with more abilities per model. All minis are metal and you either dig the steampunk aesthetic or don't. Rules are clean, like very very meticulous and spelled out for you. If there is something that is ambiguous, they have rules-people on their forums that have the ear of the designers and are allowed to make rulings with authority.

It's a game about going over the top and pounding your opponent into dust though, so it tends to bruise egos. I find that I typically have to warn 40k players about that part.

The open beta on the rules is just a good a time to start as any. You can't dive head first into a full army (without some ungodly nerd abilities for memorizing cards and rules), so you'll be playing low point battlebox games for awhile anyways - while working up to a larger force that you'll know if it will work in MkII or not, because we have access to what MkII will be.

RussWakelin wrote:

anticitizen013 wrote:So I've heard some pretty good things about this game... and I was tempted to get into it at some point. Would it be wise to wait until this edition of the rules is officially released to take a gander at it?

I'd (if possible) like to get someones personal experience on how they would compare this to 40k. Rules, models, etc...

Hmm, if only there were a Podcast someplace that had covered this very topic....

(Shameless plug coming)

Wait there is: The D6 Generation

Episode 1b: GW vs Privateer as companies... http://www.thed6generation.com/index.php?post_id=344664

Episode 5: Warmachine Overview (we compare it to 40k quite a bit)
Part 1: http://www.thed6generation.com/index.php?post_category=D6G%20Podcast
Part 2: http://www.thed6generation.com/index.php?post_id=344679

Lucky Ep 13: Hordes... http://www.thed6generation.com/index.php?post_id=367136

Enjoy!!!

I'm not a Warmachine/Hordes player, but I thought your review of Hordes was pretty interesting.

So here's something I noticed that is more an aesthetic/topographical issue than rules per se (and I'll post this over there as well): I hate symbols representing special rules. I hated that in Heroclix and was always going back and forsee myself always going back and looking up what the iron cross, two swords, dying baby or whatever other icon they provide. Just put the special rules in bold and list the page numbers on the card if you want to save space. Really.

Sweet, thanks for the info guys. I'll be checking out those links in but a moment.

I was checking out the models and I do rather like them, so that's obviously a bonus. Having very clear rules is also quite advantageous.

syr8766 wrote:So here's something I noticed that is more an aesthetic/topographical issue than rules per se (and I'll post this over there as well): I hate symbols representing special rules. I hated that in Heroclix and was always going back and forsee myself always going back and looking up what the iron cross, two swords, dying baby or whatever other icon they provide. Just put the special rules in bold and list the page numbers on the card if you want to save space. Really.

The ironic thing is that they took out so many special rules entirely that there would be no space problems even with the old style. As it stands, I foresee several models with completely blank card backs.

skullking wrote:

Scottywan82 wrote:
Also, just noticed a LOT of the Cygnar units got Jack Marhsall.

This does not surprise me as Cygnar = PP hard on. They can not get enough of that faction, the fluff for and rules make them a crazy army to play. I love the jack designs, but some of the characters just make me barf! I feel like all the other factions have some sort of 'thing' that's cool or weird about them, but cygnar just has a real "we're good at everything with out any drawbacks' vibe.

Um, what? In rules or fluff? As I long time Cygnar player, I shelved them for the Churchies as soon as I started a Protectorate army. Cygnar has LOTS of drawbacks on the tabletop. They're not "good at everything with out any drawbacks" at all. They're "we're okay at everything, but don't really excell in anything." They have no Weapon Master units, their elite infantry, Stormblades, rarely make it into melee. Gun Mages were pretty much useless before the UA came out, Defenders were a but sub par on the Str of their guns, Chargers were focus hogs that were rarely worth it, Sentinels (and Trencher Chain Guns) were pretty much useless and Hammersmiths were mediocre at best. Sure, there were stand out units in there, and they had some abilities *cough*Temporal Barrier*cogh* that were very good, but all factions do. To my knowledge, Cygnar never won any of the national tourneys, those were pretty much dominated by Khador or the Protectorate. And Cygnar's "thing" is technology and lightning.

Fluff wise, yes, they are over represented, but that's because they are the center of the story. The "Jewel of the Iron Kingdoms" is where everything is happening. The Thornwood is in it's borders, Khador wants more fertile southern land, Cryx wants bodies and is right off the coast of Cygnar and the Protectorate (which is really a part of Cygnar) wants to get rid of Morrowian influence in the Kingdom and make it a Menite nation. The coup is central to the story, with the old king now leading the Skorne Empire and lots of cloak and dagger stuff about that keeps popping up in WM and Hordes.

At any rate, I'm enjoying the new rules so far, maybe I'll even break out my Cygnar stuff again. Though my dice for Cygnar and Menoth may roll horrible if I do that.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

syr8766 wrote:So here's something I noticed that is more an aesthetic/topographical issue than rules per se (and I'll post this over there as well): I hate symbols representing special rules. I hated that in Heroclix and was always going back and forsee myself always going back and looking up what the iron cross, two swords, dying baby or whatever other icon they provide. Just put the special rules in bold and list the page numbers on the card if you want to save space. Really.

The ironic thing is that they took out so many special rules entirely that there would be no space problems even with the old style. As it stands, I foresee several models with completely blank card backs.

Thank God.

I've been wanting elegantly written units since Hordes ramped up.

so, now that they've bleached away so many rules that units have, and replaced the others with some rather uninteresting symbols, i wonder what they'll do with all that card space.

I'm thinking 72 font maybe, you know, so no one can complain about tiny text

Scottywan82 wrote:2.) Rules that says something "cannot" occur override rules that say something "must" or "can" occur.

They must have hired someone who plays Magic the Gathering

hm, i think the doom and gloom posts have overloaded their forums.

I'm hardly surprised. I'm sure the end is nigh over on the PP forums. I'm pretty much digging these rules though.

after having a few hours to absorb the change i can say.
1-i pretty much like the core rules
2- i've no idea why they felt the need to shaft the swordknights, i mean its not like they were an overpowered game breaking unit.
3- the new lower number point system sorta makes me feel like they question my ability to perform mathmatics
4- cryx armies are gonna be flooding ebay
5-while the jacks are better, the limitations of focus are still going to mean a lot of what led to infantrymachine

I have to say, if Cryx is going on sale, now's the time to buy.

Because these AREN'T the final rules. So I think some of the boys and the one girl on the PP forums need to take a deep breath - hold - and let it all out.

I'm also curious why they didn't bump up the focus amounts, but I wonder if we will see more of the epic casters along with a few more warjacks in the 25,35,50 point range. That would give the illusion at least that jacks were a larger portion of your force.

Also, I think the reason they lowered the points values to this bizarre-seeming set of numbers is to obfuscate their method of determining points cost. I hope it doesn't backfire on them and leave everyone with a smaller margin between terrible and mandatory.

Must be nice to have a look at the new rules. I signed up on the test site Monday and did NOT receive the password response. I am still waiting for the F ing password to get a look at the test rules.

As of Tuesday Morning still no password.

I think PP has missed an opportunity to allow players to get the test rules from a normal download with out all the hassel of a special sign up page.

Still waiting for the password response.

Warrior 50.

If you are using MSN or Yahoo, I know both of those sites have issues getting notifications from PP's automated email server. Go gmail!

Scottywan82 wrote:I have to say, if Cryx is going on sale, now's the time to buy.

Because these AREN'T the final rules. So I think some of the boys and the one girl on the PP forums need to take a deep breath - hold - and let it all out.

These will be very close to the final rules, however. After all, the only things they're expecting community feedback on are specific wording and typographical issues, not the rules themselves. This isn't a playtest so much as an additional round of copyediting.

syr8766 wrote:So here's something I noticed that is more an aesthetic/topographical issue than rules per se (and I'll post this over there as well): I hate symbols representing special rules. I hated that in Heroclix and was always going back and forsee myself always going back and looking up what the iron cross, two swords, dying baby or whatever other icon they provide. Just put the special rules in bold and list the page numbers on the card if you want to save space. Really.

I've mentioned this myself. It's one of the major reasons why Confrontation failed. It really raises the barrier of getting into the game. Having to do the additional task of memorizing icons on top of learning the system makes it that much harder for new players to get into it (and experienced players will know the unit's special rules anyway).

I COMPLETELY disagree. But then, I love C:AoR so I guess that's to be expected.

I think of it more in the sense of M:tG - as someone already mentioned above. It's not really much of a barrier, though I would say they need to release a cheatsheet/reference sheet regardless.

Very much like the picto-shorthand.

I kept confusing the Jack Marshal symbol (a six-pointed star) with the Commander symbol (a five-pointed US Army star). I would much prefer they just give a list of the USRs on the card, without descriptions, and I don't care if they leave or remove the symbols under the stats.

I don't think Darius got nerfed. I always liked his play style, and could win more than I lost with him. Now, he's different. Full Throttle is still powerful, and with the boost to Jacks, it helps him anyway. I think you just play him with a more balanced force (which I usually did anyway).

I just realized that Swordknights lost their second attack, which helps explain their massive points drop.

I always saw Cygnar as the 'good at everything, excellent at nothing' faction.

Cygnar really only got stupid good (to rival the other factions) with Legends anyway.

As for the rules update, I'm loving most of what I see. Still some things got their balls cut off (Assassins) and other things got nothing to make them better (Shocktroopers).

And some casters hardly got the "nerfage" I thought they would. eVlad's feat took a hit, which is good. Maybe I'll actually use the model now.

The consensus seems to be that Menoth got better, Khador slightly less so, Cryx was nerfed to death and Cygnar is somewhere in between. And that Mercs suck.

Oddly, the Skarre Bomb is still in there. A lot of things I was certain was going to be nerfed to hell are still in there.

I love the idea of symbols, here's my quick take:

It will not take many games to learn them.

The vast majority have REALLY well thought out symbols that are easy to remember. The Jack Marshall is an old west "Marshall" star. CRA is two guns, CMA is two swords, Lightning with a not symbol is immune to lightning. Incorporeal is a pack man ghost. Arc node is an antenna. Reach is a halberd. In fact I think I've already memorized most of 'em.

But here's what I REALLY like, at a glance, from across the table you can now identify key abilities on your opponent’s cards, assuming they are laid out on the table behind his troops.

Example 1: You've got an incorporeal guy and you're trying to avoid magic weapons. A quick glance at your opponent’s cards will tell you which models have the sword with stars symbol and which don't.

Example 2: You're about to cast chain lightning. A quick glance across the table will tell you which units have the not lightning symbol and which don't.

I think it will really speed up play, centralizes many common rules, and allows you to easily identify abilities from a distance. In a word… brilliant. I hope the icons are big and bold on the final cards.

Scottywan82 wrote:

I'm also curious why they didn't bump up the focus amounts, but I wonder if we will see more of the epic casters along with a few more warjacks in the 25,35,50 point range. That would give the illusion at least that jacks were a larger portion of your force.

Well, the easiest reason would be because focus buys attacks. Once you bump everyone's
focus points up, warcasters become psycho.

They did bump Amon up a little, though. The guy sure needed a break.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Oddly, the Skarre Bomb is still in there. A lot of things I was certain was going to be nerfed to hell are still in there.

Sacrificial Strikes works off the model's base ARM now. So no feat turn boosting.

greenskin lynn wrote:
5-while the jacks are better, the limitations of focus are still going to mean a lot of what led to infantrymachine

Why? If you are playing Kitchentablemachine, maybe. I think the jury is still out though because there is no information on what tourney play will be focused on. If it is fill the caster, then maybe it will still be infantrymachine. If it is something else. *shrug* I mean what if it turns into ties are determined by the points costs that you give up? Your 10 point infantry unit now costs the same as a 6 pt heavy and 4 point light. What if infantry gives up half its points if it is at half strength or less, but you need to destroy a jack to get any of its points?

Things like this will go a long way to determining if infantry usage will be waning.

greenskin lynn wrote:after having a few hours to absorb the change i can say.
5-while the jacks are better, the limitations of focus are still going to mean a lot of what led to infantrymachine

At least jacks aren't completely neutered nor disabled anymore.

I'm just sad they didn't give the Vanquisher reach.

malfred wrote:

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Oddly, the Skarre Bomb is still in there. A lot of things I was certain was going to be nerfed to hell are still in there.

Sacrificial Strikes works off the model's base ARM now. So no feat turn boosting.

It also now requires LOS.
Its pretty funny that Skarre's Feat took a double whack from the nerf bat yet no one is complaining about it. Just goes to show you how good she still is.

My only real gripe so far is the loss of eSkarre's jack bond. Cryx had one jack bond, and MKII is supposed to be all-about-the-jacks, yet they take it away. Makes no sense to me. Perhaps it will find its way back when they add the common bonds back in, but I'm not holding my breath.

All in all I like what I see.

Skarre's feat turn is still, and probably always has been, better spent with Skarre beating the ever living snot out of something rather than using her full combat action to snipe something early. +5 str and +5 armor for everyone, come on!