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I always loved the old Warzone figs, but God the CMG figures were terrible.

Kid,

You could write it up as an obituary, or eulogy and include pictures that you might have. That
would be cool. We could make it a series.

Warzone has the distinction of being the only miniatures wargame to ever have been translated into Finnish. Didn't help it.

Warzone suffered from the same problem Confrontation had or PP is facing now. It was a game that played extremely well with small units. 500 pts 10-15 figures. But Alas! that number does not a big business make so Target tried to scale the game and everything went down the drain.

But we are not going to write an obituary, like the phoenix Warzone will rise from its ashes..... errrr! uhm! someday.

M.

I actually Warzone will be back. It has a following, even thought it has dwindled.

Also, the name of the game is very, very good. Part of the reason why Warhammer and all its versions does so well is that the name, "Warhammer" is simple, to the point, and is evocative of what the game is about. So the same goes for the name Warzone.

As for scaling, PP actually is working on mass battle rules for Warmachine, but that's far in the future after the Mk2 rules come out.

For any game to be successful nowadays, I think they need a 3 pronged approach. Focus on the sales of miniatures. Start with a free quick start rules, expand it into a more detailed skirmish, then after a while you can expand further with a new rulesset that adds more mass battles.

Warhammer took this a step further by making not just mass battles, but ridiculously massive battles.

wow, i just found out you can download all the rules for every edition of Warzone here:

http://www.mutantpedia.com/eng/Warzone.html

bbb wrote:wow, i just found out you can download all the rules for every edition of Warzone here:

http://www.mutantpedia.com/eng/Warzone.html

Sssh!

1) There is a Grizzly in Berlin, but I am not telling you where...

2)

Warzone suffered from the same problem Confrontation had or PP is facing now.

Definitely not true. I was arround when Target went belly up, and it was mainly pure mismanagement of the company, which was repeated with I-Kore.

Duncan_Idaho wrote:1) There is a Grizzly in Berlin, but I am not telling you where...

2)

Warzone suffered from the same problem Confrontation had or PP is facing now.

Definitely not true. I was arround when Target went belly up, and it was mainly pure mismanagement of the company, which was repeated with I-Kore.

i remember hearing that it had to do with mainly with two guys named John, but I can't remember much else than that.

I did like the fact that the only time GW had a price reduction coincided with a major WZ release....

I was deeply involved in the industry end of Warzone's first edition. The game's mechanics were absolute poetry. I always felt it was vastly superior to 40k, especially when you consider the 40k people were playing when Warzone first came out was 2nd edition, an absolutely horrid game from a mechanics standpoint.

Mini games have come and gone, but GW still remains. They are successful for same reasons Blizzard is, they brainwash people and their workforce are fanatics. Their games are religions. Every guy who sold 40k back in the day was a fanatic who ate and slept the game. They didn't hire people who were competent, they hired people who were zealous. Zealots make more zealots, and that's why people play GW games.

Warzone had every advantage over GW, it was cheaper and it was a better game, and they hit the mini market at a time when people were really unhappy with GW games and looking for something else. But they couldn't convince anyone that because they were trying to sell the game instead of convert believers. Then 3rd ed. 40k came out and all bets were off, the game finally stopped sucking.

Then the morons who made Warzone retooled and came out with a boxed game exactly like 40k, raised their prices, and butchered the game mechanics. That did the old Warzone in because it killed their two biggest advantages.

I'm not familiar with the newest version aside from seeing it on a shelf and thinking the game was a joke. The quality of the minis alone would have been enough for me to tell anyone that game was D.O.A.

Some of the minis had some parts I might use for conversions. Good thing they went on sale at the FLGS!

I can't say I'm surprised at all by this, the scale and quality of the product did this game in. I think my LGS barely sold any of it. While I thoroughly enjoyed 1st Ed. Warzone and a small force for many armies, I would dispute some of the glowing praise for the game's mechanics, it might have been better than 2nd Ed. 40K but it was not perfect. That's just my opinion though and there is no reason to steer this off topic.
I'll be curious to see if it rises again in some form, it's been declared dead many times before.

Grimhowl wrote:I can't say I'm surprised at all by this, the scale and quality of the product did this game in. I think my LGS barely sold any of it. While I thoroughly enjoyed 1st Ed. Warzone and a small force for many armies, I would dispute some of the glowing praise for the game's mechanics, it might have been better than 2nd Ed. 40K but it was not perfect. That's just my opinion though and there is no reason to steer this off topic.
I'll be curious to see if it rises again in some form, it's been declared dead many times before.

I would agree that this I.P. is positively undead. I was shocked to see the newest version in a game store, and even more surprised to see that they made a movie about it. So yeah, you never know.

And the Nimrod, never forget the Nimrod

M.

Kasrkinlegion wrote: and even more surprised to see that they made a movie about it. So yeah, you never know.

2 if we count Ghost of Mars....

Ice Cube bay-bee!

Achilles wrote:Ice Cube bay-bee!

"Today was a good day!"

Man, I've been looking for some of those Cell Entertainment miniatures for a long time, especially the viking angel one. I'm not sure it was ever released. I remember actually preordering that one.

Kasrkinlegion wrote:I was deeply involved in the industry end of Warzone's first edition. The game's mechanics were absolute poetry. I always felt it was vastly superior to 40k, especially when you consider the 40k people were playing when Warzone first came out was 2nd edition, an absolutely horrid game from a mechanics standpoint.

In all fairness, there were things about WZ 1st ed that were absolutely positively broken, too. No, they didn't have Vortex grenades and other such silliness, but it had loopholes and broken matter that made GW brokeness look pretty tame by comparison.

The difference was, such loopholes were fairly rare. The basic mechanic for WZ was very good - but WZ1 was not perfect by any means.

Kasrkinlegion wrote:
Mini games have come and gone, but GW still remains. They are successful for same reasons Blizzard is, they brainwash people and their workforce are fanatics. Their games are religions. Every guy who sold 40k back in the day was a fanatic who ate and slept the game. They didn't hire people who were competent, they hired people who were zealous. Zealots make more zealots, and that's why people play GW games.

Very good points. And this can still be seen today, when visiting pretty much any GW store.

Kasrkinlegion wrote:
Warzone had every advantage over GW, it was cheaper and it was a better game, and they hit the mini market at a time when people were really unhappy with GW games and looking for something else.

GW had two advantages over HB/WZ: minis quality and a massive already-established fanbase.

Early WZ figs were so terrible. Terrible detail, terrible proportions, terrible poses - just terrible, pretty much across the board. It wasn't until 2nd Ed WZ came out that HB started getting serious with the quality, but by then, it was pretty much too late. Even the plastic Bauhaus/Trenchers were pretty awesome, and blew away 90% of the previous WZ1 line. And at a bazillion figs for $70 (though you could easily find it online for $50 at the time), the price-per-mini ratio was pretty incredible!

One of GW's biggest advantages is the built-in fanbase that they have had for a long time. When WZ was trying to buildup steam, 40K was already well into it's 2nd edition, had codexes galore, tons of minis, their own storefronts on multiple continents, etc. When a new player walks in and sees 40K being played by 20 people and WZ being played by 6, more often than not, a new player will gravitate towards the popular setting, because they want the comfort of knowing they can find more opponents, etc. Especially young players, usually want to play the 'in' thing.

Kasrkinlegion wrote:
Then the morons who made Warzone retooled and came out with a boxed game exactly like 40k, raised their prices, and butchered the game mechanics. That did the old Warzone in because it killed their two biggest advantages.

I have to respectfully disagree here, as well. 2nd ed rules were definitely different - but they fixed many of 1st ed's loopholes and problems. My only real problem with 2nd ed was how they did 'over genericize' weapons and gear and even stat-lines to some degree. The heart of WZ, though, was still there: alternating activations, actions, d20 based, the background, etc.

There's nothing at all wrong with having a 'boxed set like 40k'. I mean - it obviously WORKS for 40k, and there's something to be said for getting newcomers into the game as easily as possible, at a decent price point. The price of the boxed-set was a STEAL for as much stuff as you got.

And as I mentioned, as HB was winding down to nothingness, their quality was just hitting that 'superb' level. The latest Capitol/Bauhaus stuff was simply awesome. The latest Brotherhood stuff was seriously awesome - especially compared to the previous abominations I had to use in my army. The new Blood Berets, Purple Sharks, Dark Eden stuff... on and on, were so promising of things to come - but it wasn't meant to be.

And then, Excelsior took over, and we got "Ultimate Warzone" - Ugh. Great intentions, but the worst customer service I've ever witnessed, couldn't meet any deadlines to save their own lives, and even worse editing/proofing. But, that's water under the bridge.

Like many others, there's always that hope in the back of my mind that WZ will resurface somehow, somewhere. A revival is always possible. FFG's attempt was pretty bad, but it was FFG trying to take the IP in another 'direction'. But that doesn't mean there won't ever be another attempt. Meanwhile, I still have my Brotherhood army packed safely away, ready to face down the Darkness once more when (and if) the time comes.

(P.S. and along with it, a revival of Chronopia would be awesome, as well! If we're gonna wish big, might as well shoot for the moon! )

-Mort

Mort wrote:
In all fairness, there were things about WZ 1st ed that were absolutely positively broken, too. No, they didn't have Vortex grenades and other such silliness, but it had loopholes and broken matter that made GW brokeness look pretty tame by comparison.

Like the (IIRC) Capitol hero taking the additional actions upgrade and the mechanical arm to fire a Nimrod 5 times from the hip without bracing or the Deathbringer doing almost the same but with teleportation in the 1st printing before Deathbringers upgrade options were limited. How I miss those days

mort wrote:
Early WZ figs were so terrible. Terrible detail, terrible proportions, terrible poses - just terrible, pretty much across the board. It wasn't until 2nd Ed WZ came out that HB started getting serious with the quality, but by then, it was pretty much too late. Even the plastic Bauhaus/Trenchers were pretty awesome, and blew away 90% of the previous WZ1 line. And at a bazillion figs for $70 (though you could easily find it online for $50 at the time), the price-per-mini ratio was pretty incredible!

Don´t you dare defaming big shoulder pads, big heads and poses, that´s very rude, early miniatures were proportionally challenged . BTW you can still buy some good late wave minis very cheap in ebay and Prince August.

mort wrote: My only real problem with 2nd ed was how they did 'over genericize' weapons and gear and even stat-lines to some degree. The heart of WZ, though, was still there: alternating activations, actions, d20 based, the background, etc.

Same here, I loved the Shogun AR over the bland generic AR from second ed.

mort wrote:And then, Excelsior took over, and we got "Ultimate Warzone" - Ugh. Great intentions, but the worst customer service I've ever witnessed, couldn't meet any deadlines to save their own lives, and even worse editing/proofing. But, that's water under the bridge.

It was a case of too few trying too many things at the same time. WZ and Chronopia were too big for the staff and as a result both games suffered, Excelsior should had concentrated efforts in one and leave the other on the backburner but Alas! hindsight is always 20/20

Like many others, there's always that hope in the back of my mind that WZ will resurface somehow, somewhere. A revival is always possible. FFG's attempt was pretty bad, but it was FFG trying to take the IP in another 'direction'. But that doesn't mean there won't ever be another attempt. Meanwhile, I still have my Brotherhood army packed safely away, ready to face down the Darkness once more when (and if) the time comes.

(P.S. and along with it, a revival of Chronopia would be awesome, as well! If we're gonna wish big, might as well shoot for the moon! )

-Mort

Me too, me too!. If you ever come to Osaka bring your army and I´ll teach you a lesson about how to slice brotherhood troops in thin slices

M.