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Cheese Elemental wrote:Look, everyone understands that CSM are quite a powerful army, but that's not what we're talking about here. No-one is complaining about cheese, Bunker, so read posts fully and don't open your mouth until then,

We're complaining that the fluff for CSM (and other new codexes) no longer has any effect on thhe gameplay. In this dreadful era of 'counts as', we have ludicrous situations like Slaanesh psykers leading an otherwise Khornate army.

Seriously, cry harder. Maybe when you start tear-staining the tables, people will care. You're getting all blurry-eyed that you're facing Khorne and Slaanesh? Fine. It's a warband where the leadership has fallen into Slaanesh's camp, while the rank and file drifted under the sway of the Blood God. It's been a violent, and factitious divide, and was just about to be finally settled in a spectacularly bloody confrontation when a whole bunch of loyalist marines drop-podded right into the middle of things, and the warband's differences will still be waiting to be settled after they finish flaying the souls out of the false emperor's dogs.

There you go, you have your fluff. Now stop crying over the fact that everyone does not play the game the way you think it should be played, and just play the damn game.

Xenith wrote:
corpsesarefun, tzeentch likes new life and change, nugle likes death and stagnation. thats why they fight.

i thought nurgle was all about destruction to bring new life?

Well, if you are at a tourny, then you have to be ready for the most optimized (non fluffy) lists to come at you. It's just the nature of the beast, you can't blame people for wanting to build the hardest army they can


As for friendly games, well again, it depends on the person. At my FLGS there are Chaos armies that have ... questionable ... alliances. Like the Daemon Khorne/Tze (Fateweaver + BloodCrushers). But, then there are some really great themed armies as well Just gotta take it as it comes and have fun.

If GW built a codex that really forced people to play with "fluffy" armies, then people would btich that they didn't have enough freedom.

So basically, i'd rather have the option to build both a fluffy and non fluffy army, then have to build it a certain way.

The more the current CSM codex exists, the more I hate it with every being in my soul.

corpsesarefun wrote:

Xenith wrote:
corpsesarefun, tzeentch likes new life and change, nugle likes death and stagnation. thats why they fight.

i thought nurgle was all about destruction to bring new life?

You're right, nurgle is the lord of decay. But decay is essential for change (imagine a world with no bacteria)

Tzeentch is the god of change, and i assume, doesn't like nurgle interfering with his sinister plans

Voicing one's Opinion isn't crying, it's free speech. I think a lot of SM players would be uppset is you could have a Blood angels captain leading an black templars army. Or if GW threw all the SM follow the codex who-hah out of the window. Some people lost thier Entire armies in this codex. All undivided leigion rules were purged. Imagin if SM were forced to only play ultra marines, with space wolves only as a troop choice.

Flame shield up.

Trench-Raider wrote:Recently another player at the LGS was looking at my army and said "Cool, Nurgle! I play Nurgle too!". He proceded to show me an army that consisted of two Plague Marine squads backed up by nine oblitorators and two lash princes.

So as I asked in the title, do today's chaos players care about the long standing fluff of the game or do they just consider the units in the codex to be a meaningless collection of bits to make "mix and pick" armies?

I don't know why you get your panties in a bunch. He has a legal army and should be free to play it. Today's players don't have to care about Fluff, but then nor do they deserve Theme points from older players who know the Fluff. He just gets a zero for comp (dual-lash oblit spam) and theme (pure win build).

in the current enviroment, ive stopped trying to preach the word of chaos fluff. in a tourney your obviously going to run a hard list, but i know good players who run themed armies in tourneys and do very well. so teling me that the only way for chaos to win is with 2 lashes, 9 oblits and PM's in the center just doesnt fly.

in the end its the player that makes the call. i for one will follow the fluff, and just becuase its outdated doesnt mean its wrong. so may people look at the most recent codex, read about the chaos gods holding hands and assume thats the way its always been. thats a load of garbage, but if you wanna pull the wool over your eyes then thats on you.

everyone has access to the same codex, some people just want to abuse it, min/max the best stuff out no matter what mark it has and smash people with it. other people want to make a themed/balanced list and enjoy themeselves, in the end its all about choice.

i chose to recognize the older fluff about ancient enemies and that sort of thing, thats just me. obliterators arn't techmarines to me, they have the obliterator virus, and a lash prince will never lead my plague marines anywhere.

sexiest_hero wrote:Voicing one's Opinion isn't crying, it's free speech.

It's all about how you phrase it.

Trench-Raider wrote:IF ITS IN THE CODEX U KAN DO IT!!11!! IF ITS A GO0D K0Mb) USE IT! i PLAt 2 W1N!!!!11!! Hur hur

Yes, making a poll where you have three properly written choices, and then that does nothing at all to make you look like a butt-hurt little baby who can't wrap their head around the fact that just because it's your way, doesn't mean it's the only way.

The great thing about people complaining about mixing previously hated forces is that it has always been possible before, but it was limited by requiring a neutral guy in charge of the army. All GW did was decide to get rid of the requirement for a middleman.

How many Space Marine players care about the old Space Marine fluff where Space Marines were brain washed, mind wiped psychopaths? Or did that never happen because GW would never change the background?

Hello.

Firstly i would like to ask, would you consider a combined army of all four powers an O.K army,
Secondly, I started playing in 2005(I'm 15) , and so consider myself a relatively new hobbyist, and yet i still know about the chaos god "eternal enemies" fluff.
Thirdly, and this is just me being a stickler for latin grammar: Its CODICES not Codecii (one of my pet hates is bad pluralisation)

BYE

my flying khorne prince with super cool rage inducing aura "counts as" a lash prince.
The old fluff is dead. until I can give psyhic protection to my khorne princes (very fluffy).
If you want me to play old fluff I will gladly play codex v3.5. I have an 888 point 8 man chosen bike squad that is always ready.

At OP:

I'm sorry my Malal-themed Daemon force consists of Daemons that are Slaaneshi/Khornate/Nurglish/Tzeentchian by rules and fluff and not of the "correct" Malalian Daemonic Legion that's totally in my codex/armybook.

I'll just go smash all my models up and melt the remains because it's upsetting you that the mortal enemy of all chaos is using the wrong type of Daemons that don't really like each other!

i retract the previous statement after looking it up.

corpsesarefun wrote:Nurgle likes to cause disease and create new life, Slaanesh likes to create new life

And spreads a little disease in the process, perfect match.

Well, except for Nurgle's fluff being wrong.

Trench-Raider wrote:while another had a large force of Khorne Berserkers being lead by a Slaanesh sorceror with lash! :wtf: I actually asked the owner of the latter army "You do know that one of the first things the World Eaters did when they turned renegade was kill all their librarians. Why do you think they would tolerate the pressence of any sorceror..especially one from a power they are opposed to?"

In the Black Library book about Kharne a Slaanesh sorcerer used his seductive power to turn Kharnes men against him. Kharne then preceded to happily slaughter them. But, the point is, he could have easily argued that the berserkers were under the spell of the sorcerers and he got the idea for his "theme" from a certified GW book.

Point being, fluff can be used to justify any power gaming technique you dream up if you just try hard enough.

The major complaint seems to be that the chaos book is less limiting. But I see that as a good thing. If you want fluff, build all nurgle, or all Khorne, etc. If you want to power game, then power game. Power gamers never really cared about the fluff anyway, they didn't see it as a cool addition to their army, just a silly limitation.

The problem with putting limitations on power gamers is that you can kill the fluff for some people too. Let's take my initial example of the dancing berserker army. What if someone out there read that book and thought that playing that army would be a really cool idea? Nothing about how good it was, but this guy just really liked that book. If there were limitations written into the rules, he couldn't do it.

At the end of the day, I think excess limitations hurt the fluff more than they hurt they power gaming. Power gamers will always find another way to make the most powerful army and bend the rules. Sure, maybe some lash runners would have bought orcs instead and all brought the same biker nob army. What fun that would be. If there is going to be cheese, there may as well be a variety of cheese. Because, if you want a fluffy army, it is still perfectly in your ability to build one. Sure, it won't stand up to dual lash prince, but it won't stand up to biker nobs* and whatever else the over powered flavor of the month is and that's what the players who care more about winning than their armies will bring anyway.


*I personally don't think biker nobs are as all powerful as everyone says, but I use them as an example of a cheesy flavor of the month army. There are plenty of other examples.

Bookwrack wrote:

Cheese Elemental wrote:Look, everyone understands that CSM are quite a powerful army, but that's not what we're talking about here. No-one is complaining about cheese, Bunker, so read posts fully and don't open your mouth until then,

We're complaining that the fluff for CSM (and other new codexes) no longer has any effect on thhe gameplay. In this dreadful era of 'counts as', we have ludicrous situations like Slaanesh psykers leading an otherwise Khornate army.

Seriously, cry harder. Maybe when you start tear-staining the tables, people will care. You're getting all blurry-eyed that you're facing Khorne and Slaanesh? Fine. It's a warband where the leadership has fallen into Slaanesh's camp, while the rank and file drifted under the sway of the Blood God. It's been a violent, and factitious divide, and was just about to be finally settled in a spectacularly bloody confrontation when a whole bunch of loyalist marines drop-podded right into the middle of things, and the warband's differences will still be waiting to be settled after they finish flaying the souls out of the false emperor's dogs.

There you go, you have your fluff. Now stop crying over the fact that everyone does not play the game the way you think it should be played, and just play the damn game.

Stop trying to sound intelligent, it doesn't suit you.
Seriously, when you saw an Alpha Legion or World Eaters force in the old codex, you could really appreciate the theme of the army. Cult armies were wonderfully unified forces, but nowadays we have the same cookie-cutter lists with really lame explanations like the one you gave. In the old codex it was made quite clear that rival cults would NEVER fight alongside each other unless they were led by a charismatic undivided Lord.

Bunker wrote:

Trench-Raider wrote:Oh believe me. I know were the blame lies. You are correct.
However just because you can do it in the codex does not mean that a player should take that option.

TR

Cry more.

Seriously.

In the 10 minutes it took you to post your OP, you could have been setting up a game against a Chaos army to figure out how to beat whatever it is you have a problem with this week.

inb4 son, kiddo, champ, tiger and cheif.

Wrong attitude, posted like a brand new player. The abortion of the current chaos codex flys in the face of nearly 20 years of published GW history. I'm with the OP!

There is suppose to be Chaos Rivalry
Where are the Daemons and possesed Marines in the Chaos armies? Right, no one plays them because the rules are trash!
The Daemon Codex is completely inane, essentially mixed chaos teleporting WHFB army that grew AP1 flame throwers and meltabombs?
Who wouldn't take plague marines as troops?

The other side effect, new players aren't even bothering to buy/paint the models correctly as wysiwyg because of the poor structure. If I had a dollar for every chaos army at Adepticon of black (or whatever color regular chaos marines) where the troops were plague marines and the Landraider guys were berzerkers and 2 lash princess were leading other marked units it would have paid for my trip...

SAD

If anyone said: Oh, these Khorne Berzerkers and Slaaneshi Noise Marines are going to enter this terrain piece with the Tzeentchian Thousand Sons and the Nurgle Plague Marines, I'd probably laugh my head off.

But, still, it is their army.

Archaon the Everchosen united the Chaos Legions, as did Horus during the Heresy. It's not impossible.

Cheese Elemental wrote:

Bookwrack wrote:

Cheese Elemental wrote:Look, everyone understands that CSM are quite a powerful army, but that's not what we're talking about here. No-one is complaining about cheese, Bunker, so read posts fully and don't open your mouth until then,

We're complaining that the fluff for CSM (and other new codexes) no longer has any effect on thhe gameplay. In this dreadful era of 'counts as', we have ludicrous situations like Slaanesh psykers leading an otherwise Khornate army.

Seriously, cry harder. Maybe when you start tear-staining the tables, people will care. You're getting all blurry-eyed that you're facing Khorne and Slaanesh? Fine. It's a warband where the leadership has fallen into Slaanesh's camp, while the rank and file drifted under the sway of the Blood God. It's been a violent, and factitious divide, and was just about to be finally settled in a spectacularly bloody confrontation when a whole bunch of loyalist marines drop-podded right into the middle of things, and the warband's differences will still be waiting to be settled after they finish flaying the souls out of the false emperor's dogs.

There you go, you have your fluff. Now stop crying over the fact that everyone does not play the game the way you think it should be played, and just play the damn game.

Stop trying to sound intelligent, it doesn't suit you.
Seriously, when you saw an Alpha Legion or World Eaters force in the old codex, you could really appreciate the theme of the army. Cult armies were wonderfully unified forces, but nowadays we have the same cookie-cutter lists with really lame explanations like the one you gave. In the old codex it was made quite clear that rival cults would NEVER fight alongside each other unless they were led by a charismatic undivided Lord.

That's funny. I remember the old Codex had cookie-cutter lists with 9 oblits and basilisk spam, or all-infiltrating spam, or demonbomb spam, or slaanesh combat drugs demon prince with sound blasters spam. The background just happened to fit with the "wonderfully unified forces" so they didn't need to come up with lame background stories.

stonefox wrote:

Cheese Elemental wrote:

Bookwrack wrote:

Cheese Elemental wrote:Look, everyone understands that CSM are quite a powerful army, but that's not what we're talking about here. No-one is complaining about cheese, Bunker, so read posts fully and don't open your mouth until then,

We're complaining that the fluff for CSM (and other new codexes) no longer has any effect on thhe gameplay. In this dreadful era of 'counts as', we have ludicrous situations like Slaanesh psykers leading an otherwise Khornate army.

Seriously, cry harder. Maybe when you start tear-staining the tables, people will care. You're getting all blurry-eyed that you're facing Khorne and Slaanesh? Fine. It's a warband where the leadership has fallen into Slaanesh's camp, while the rank and file drifted under the sway of the Blood God. It's been a violent, and factitious divide, and was just about to be finally settled in a spectacularly bloody confrontation when a whole bunch of loyalist marines drop-podded right into the middle of things, and the warband's differences will still be waiting to be settled after they finish flaying the souls out of the false emperor's dogs.

There you go, you have your fluff. Now stop crying over the fact that everyone does not play the game the way you think it should be played, and just play the damn game.

Stop trying to sound intelligent, it doesn't suit you.
Seriously, when you saw an Alpha Legion or World Eaters force in the old codex, you could really appreciate the theme of the army. Cult armies were wonderfully unified forces, but nowadays we have the same cookie-cutter lists with really lame explanations like the one you gave. In the old codex it was made quite clear that rival cults would NEVER fight alongside each other unless they were led by a charismatic undivided Lord.

That's funny. I remember the old Codex had cookie-cutter lists with 9 oblits and basilisk spam, or all-infiltrating spam, or demonbomb spam, or slaanesh combat drugs demon prince with sound blasters spam. The background just happened to fit with the "wonderfully unified forces" so they didn't need to come up with lame background stories.

True,there were "cookie cuter"spam list culled from the old codex,just as there are from the current one,power gamers will find ways to be power gamers reguardless,sadly in a search for "balance" in the current CSM codex things have become a bit bland and dull.
I do however belive it's very possible to create a "fluffy" army using the current dex,I used to make my Death Guard and I belive it turned out competitive and fluffy....and not a lash in sight.

Modquisition on:
This thread has been reported-twice.
Everyone needs to remember the primary rule in Dakka: Be polite. Before you hit send on that post you should re-read said post to insure it falls within that minimum standard of courtesy.

Because of multiple reports, posts after this warning will be reviewed to insure they meet said criteria, in harsh terms. Consider this a warning to be especially mindful of Rule #1, as summary disciplinary proceedings will be invoked should posts violate that on this thread going forward, starting with suspensions.

I am as serious as a heart attack and will periodically check this thread.

modquisition off.

If a new player walks into his FLGS, picks up the chaos codex and reads it cover to cover, he'll have no idea that running slaaneshi sorcerers in khorne squads isn't fluffy. As much as I sympathize with the OP, it just isn't fair to criticize a player for not following fluff that doesn't exist anymore.

solkan wrote:How many Space Marine players care about the old Space Marine fluff where Space Marines were brain washed, mind wiped psychopaths? Or did that never happen because GW would never change the background?

I actually think that's a lot cooler and more interesting than most of the current lame-ass background material.

I think the background all depends on how you interpret the interaction between the Gods of Chaos and their followers.

Lets take Daemons as an example. What they need to carry out their nefarious behaviour, is a doorway of some kind. Most often, this is either a Psyker, or a pre existing rift in Real Space. Now Daemons can sense these things, and do their level best to wedge said doorway open, allowing them to rampage on the material plane. Thus, when the door is finally opened, it's less a matter of 'I won't follow through, because Khorne is their already' and much more of a free for all feeding frenzy. Get through, munch as many souls as you can before the door slams shut and they are cast back into the Warp. And the Gods are known to work together as a foursome (fnarr) from time to time. Is it that hard to imagine some Daemons forming a brief alliance with others, even from their Gods rival, as long as they can further their goals? And what could be more appealing than piggybacking on the effort of another, fulfilling your goals, whilst also preventing them from achieveing theirs? The alliances are temporary at best.

Same with the Chaos Legions. Nowadays, they are portrayed as a lot less organised than before. Ego has crept into the renegade marines. Each squad could be a seperate warband allied to the overall commander through mutual convenience, bribery or some other form of coercion. Read the gubbins on the Obliterators. Former Techmarines, not really allied to anyone, and utterly mercenary in their outlook.

Now, if someone decides to make a purely win list, is that the Games Designer being a dick, or the player? The background is put into the books as inspiration. Something to read through and spark your imagination, the army plan following on from there. However, some ignore it utterly and simply make the most poweful list they can, presumably because something in their life is lacking, and winning at a wargame has become the be all and end all.

Hordini wrote:

solkan wrote:How many Space Marine players care about the old Space Marine fluff where Space Marines were brain washed, mind wiped psychopaths? Or did that never happen because GW would never change the background?

I actually think that's a lot cooler and more interesting than most of the current lame-ass background material.

I dunno. I mean it sounds cool, but was all the homoerotic feel with the plasma guns, geneseed, and age of initiation present back then?

some ignore it utterly and simply make the most poweful list they can, presumably because something in their life is lacking, and winning at a wargame has become the be all and end all.

Right.

I'm not sure if it was, stonefox, but there's no reason you can't mix and match if that's your thing.


"Sergeant Cadmus knew in the depths of his pounding double heart that he would always stand behind his battle brothers. The support provided by his hot, pulsing plasma cannon had proved crucial in previous battles. This struggle would be no different."

Oh geez 40K pron.

The player who demands that you play the way they want you to, buy the minis
they want you to buy, paint the way they want you to paint. is not the player you
want to play against. You find this out the first time you play someone, and you
either talk it over and adjust, or not play each other.

Frazzled wrote:Oh geez 40K pron has been with us since day one.

fyt