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GW whether they see it or not do have competition they just pretend they dont. Admitedly PPS isnt a huge company but its definately a challenge to the throne. When the new warmachine plastics come out id expect a huge surge in WM players. If anyone has looked on the PPS website one of the new plastic kits is shown there and it looks far better than anything ive saw come out of GW recently and the price is exactly the same at the minute of a squad of terminators. Though when the price rise kicks in the WM plastics will be cheaper than GW and you get more in a box. Currently 5 terminators cost £25 for 6 of the WM plastics of equal size if not bigger you pay £25 come june for those 5 termies you pay £30 to £35 and with WM you still will be paying £25. As for finding gamers to play WM Scotland has plenty of people looking for games of WM, I wish i was still there so i could get some games in myself

I really think its all about the variety that is born of time that gives GW its advantage. They have a huge number of factions and models that have been built upon slowly over a 30 year period.

It will take a while for anyone to direcly combat this. I think Battlefront is actually much closer than PP. Not in the states because historical is not so popular but globally Battlefront has very quickly grown into a very major player.

In case anyone missed it, just a few months ago they bought out Gail Force 9, and Wargaming Monthly. In just a few years they have built a global distribution model and have a product sold in 47 countries from south east asia to all of europe and the americas.

If anyone is going to compete with 40k it would be them.

Warmachine is an awsome game and PP is doing a brilliant job, but I think they are not trying to go toe to toe with GW as much as build a very solid core following in multiple genres. The shift to plastics by them will be the next step, they are just going about it slower than Battlefront.

I look forward to a day when Battlefront and PP can stand on equal footing with GW.

Then we will stop hearing crap from GW about how they can raise thier prices with impunity because thier players have no where else to go.

Lanceradvanced wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: GW however have, erm....taken inspiration from numerous places for their games.

PP isn't exactally short on "inspiration", considerig you can have John Henry going mano-a-mano with Baba Yaga... One of the major reasons I got into it, was that I had just ripped through Marrion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover books and was seeing major parallels between their fluff and the 100 Kingdoms stories (StormQueen, Hawkmistress, etc..) there, as time has gone by it's just gotten better..

Not a lot of variety in there. The game was in it's infancy. Over time the range was expanded as the game caught on, and now we're looking at it's 2nd Edition.

Also, don't forget to throw Hordes in there, it's compatable, and pushes things more toward the high fantasy, racking PP up to 13 Factions (4 in WM, 4 in Hordes, 4 Merc Contracts plus the Pirates (who cover Ord pretty well) with the Retribution on the way, what's more each of the major faction usually has at least 3 viable subgroups

It's about keeping the gamers in house. PP are doing ok I guess. Not my cup of tea, but until they branch out with other games, I don't see them getting to GW size. And look what happened to Rackham as well!

Oh, and Monsterpocalypse to boot... now with (*Action) FORM BLAZING SWORD

True enough about Hordes. Never quite sure whether it should be counted as a game in it's own right, or as a particularly large expansion for Warmachine! As for Mosterpocalypse, isn't that Prepainted? Not really a *Hobby* game if it's prepainted (yes I know I'm a snob )

I don't think PP are anywhere near as big as some might make out. Sure, they have the potential to be a long term rival, but that is sadly something only time will tell. Rackham shot themselves in the foot, and PP's original selling point (we're nothing like GW) seems to be eroding over time. New edition coming out, going to plastics etc are all things the original Prime book was seemingly against (Page 5 I think!) and there are certainly grumblings on the Interwebs about the forthcoming new edition. So they get more and more like GW !

While i agree in some parts mad doc, in others not so much. PPS and the new edition are looking to move forward and doing something GW would never do by actually getting the fans involved. The grumblings for anyone on PPS is actually from the hordes players not getting a game. The reason for that is currently PPS are only doing WM mkII and not hordes. There is no real grumblings from the mkII playtesters and hordes players can and do still get a game.

PPS to me are a far removed company, they care about the game they produce as well as there fans and core gamers while GW continually kill off anyone that is bothered about the GW side of a much bigger Wargames hobby as a whole. Its not all about GW anymore and thank god for that. Im out of GW, refuse to have anymore to do with them, I like a lot of people hope they of out of business and get bought over by someone that actually think about the customers unlike GW currently

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Now, many people seem to like Warmachine, but the very nature of the game gives it an Achilles heel which Fantasy and 40k don't have. It's theme. I just don't get on the with game, no so much because of the rules, but because of Steampunk. Steampunk bores my tits off. Majorly. To my mind it is an abomination that cannot die off quickly enough.

Personally I find this a bit odd, since I consider 40K to be steampunkish. Maybe there aren't any steam engines, but they've got the big clunky machines, stilted architecture, rigid hierarchical society, and semi-ritualize machine devices that do incredible things.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Check out Warmachine Prime. Not a lot of variety in there. The game was in it's infancy. Over time the range was expanded as the game caught on, and now we're looking at it's 2nd Edition.

Maybe not model wise, per se, but possibilities are much higher, because each model has much more detail. Sure GW has numbers, units wise, maybe 5:1 on PP, but the PP units all have about 5x as many rules, so you don't need as many. 40K used to be very similar, just look at all the options for Missile Launchers in RT, but 3rd edition really removed that to make the games quicker and larger.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Yes. Handhold. Thats right. Damn their titchy 60% or so share of the Wargames Market! Which of course means the other 40% or so is split between *every other wargames company out there, including

Where do you get that figure? Not disagreeing, just wondering who or how anybody can gather stats on the wargames market.

This i feel is the easiest way to put what i think of the current situation. I buy GW models to play the game first and foremost, I love painting and modelling and after 14+ years of doing so im not bad at it, but i like to play the game, unfortunately GW dont care if i play or not, they sell models not rules. Now apart from War Of The Ring which i must say is a brilliantly written set of rules GW sucks at making good games. I know many people liek to paint and do conversions here and there but i also know many like to play the game. I havent played a proper game of 40k since 2nd edition and yet ive stuck by GW no matter what. But recently with the DUMBING down of 40k and the shocking rule set the new codexs are going its not worth the time. The new price rises also ruin the game by making people pay way over the top for what you can get fro next to nothing. Im not just quitting GW cos of the prices but also the dumbing down of anything they produce ie Codex Space Marines. The reason im moving to Privateer Press, they care about there fanbase, they write rules to go with there models, yes they are as expensive as GW are now but come june theyll be cheaper. GW`s claim for the best models mean squat to me. I cant wait for GW to go bust and i feel sorry for the people that continue to keep them afloat and thats just afloat. GW has no room for vets like myself and many others and thus we move on and find a decent game with decent rules and equally if not better models to use. Id say RIP GW but i couldnt care after 14 years of supporting them. Burn

How do PP care for their gamers?

I've heard this said before, and never got a straight answer.

PPS forums, if anyone looks on them there staff are actually on it and actually answer questions and actively get involved and even reply personally.

Remember the GW forums? The ones they closed cos they didnt like what was said. You can write or e mail GW but honestly how many if the Top brass will get back to you? Answer none. I and a few others have mailed GW personally and every reply has been from some underpaid so and so saying GW is the best and we do this and that. So what i want someone that takes time to actually get back to me personally not some troll.

Where PPS differ here is once again they actually listen to there customers. Answer me this when have GW recently been writing new rules and actually asked there gamers for feedback so they can make the game better? Never, why cos GW dont care as long as there making money.

I have nothing against people standing up for them but really its down to personal preferance. I make a grand and a half a month and can easily afford out i want. Unfortunately GW dont care about me as a hobbyist, they see me as a cash investment and by raising prices and alienating the vets there bringing there own downfall.

There is no real grumblings from the mkII playtesters and hordes players can and do still get a game.

I always notice that when someone moves from GW to PP, they tend to take off one set of rose colored glasses and put on another. Just going to the PP boards, or any game store will show many WM players yelling like stuck pigs. Understandable, as the game is changing and many people don't like change, even if they may end up loving the new game.

There's just as much grumbling from WM players as from GW players. GW players are just more realistic and jaded in the grumblings. WM players grumble, but deny it as soon as they want to start bashing GW.

WM/Hoards are starting to become competition for GW, but in a very small way. Size of the companies are still not comparable. FOW is also in the same catagory. If WM and FOW grow for another 5 years, they may move into a legitimate

GW did do closed Playtesting at one point. The reason they stopped? Rather than looking for wording problems or rules clashes, the Playtesters responded with 'X should be cheaper. Y should have this special rule. Z needs AP1 etc.

I've written a couple of Emails to GW, and seeing as I addressed them to the appropriate person, rather than just generally, I got replies from said persons.

As for the Forums, it's not so much that people said what they didn't want to hear, it's more that the constant, baseless whinging drowned out what few good points were made. Thus rendering the whole exercise pointless. Empty vessels making the most noise and that I guess.

GW offer somewhere to play. They will teach you how to play, how to paint, how to model, how to convert, all free of charge. PP categorically do not, apart from in a Magazine, something GW do as well.

So to say GW don't care about their customers is an outright fallacy, I'm sure you'll agree.

And just how support should a Veteran need? You raised an interesting point that PP put out rules for their models. Either I'm reading entirely the wrong books, but so do GW? Thats kind of what the Army Books are there for. Rules and stats for using their models in their game?

Now I get that you prefer PP, which is fair enough, but why the ill sentiment to GW? Did they eat your Nan or molest your Hamster? Oddly enough, PP only care about the bottom line as well. GW prices are high due to their overheads. Running all those stores isn't cheap. So whats PP's excuse? Prices are around the same, no?

Where PPS differ here is once again they actually listen to there customers

Actually, they don't. - They listen to players.

PPS's customers are distributors, and game stores. They listen far less than GW does, when it comes to interacting with stores. And there support for those gaming stores is far, far less than what GW does.

PPS and the players that are bitter about GW and have moved to PPS games, desperately want GW to fail, and for PPS to be in competition with them. That's all fine, but sometimes I think we here the same stuff repeated over and over like some mantra that's been brainwashed in.

They are both companies that make games. They aren't at war with each other. GW failing won't fullfill your life's dreams.

Of course WM/Hordes is small competition, its only been out a few relatively short years as have FOW. And yes in time they will get bigger. GW didnt start big, everyone has to start somewhere.

My glasses are still the same colour. Im not bashing GW, all credit to them for what they have done and unfortunately no credit to them for what there doing now.

I grumble about GW because currently i feel its deserved. For me having been playing GW games and getting everything theyve released for the last 14 or so years theyve shot themselves in the foot with yet another stab in the back of the hobbyists and wargamers.

By all means i know PPS players are grumbling also and i know that not everything is going there way either but they are at least getting on the side of there hobbyists. Yes there not perfect, not one company is but at least they are trying where GW are not.

Ive stopped defending companies like GW and i wont defend PPS as all i want at the end of the day is to have a wargame with decent mini`s and a good set of rules to let my inner geek out. One company or another as long as its value for money which currently GW are not doing.

The reason for this GW rules are terrible and some of the worst ever written. I know they make models to sell but some people want to play not just have things sitting pretty on a shelf

How have GW stabbed people in the back? You keep making statements like that and fail to ackb them up.

You said the current Space Marine Codex has been 'dumbed down'. In what way? Just another example of a statement you made with no back up.

Are the GW rules really that terrible? I don't think so. Considering the amount of stuff they have in the game, I'm amazed there is any kind of balance. The people I game with do play other games, but play GW most of all. Look at the thriving Tournament scene. Seems to fly in the face of your assesment.

This is how i feel, i dont need to back up how i feel as im not speaking for anyone bar myself.

You are right i should have went into more on the marine dex and i will at some point.

Again this is only my opinion, Ive not once said this is on the whole, ive only ever stated what i think so theres no need to jump on me anout my thoughts.

As for tournaments and there thriving scene i wouldnt know. I dont do tournaments. I play for fun not for winning.

And to add from what ive heard about the tournament scene its starting to die down with not so many people going- Again just what ive heard

I'm not a Tournament gamer either. But they are a good indicator as to a games popularity.

And seeing as this is a forum, you do have to explain your statements. Without doing so, you do nothing to engender debate and conversation, and come over as a Fanboi just expecting people to agree with you. GW seem to aggrieved you quite heavily if all you wish is to see them go under, so I would expect evidence to support your claims.

How do i come over as a fanboi if im putting down the company?

Theyve aggrevied lots of people not just me. For you calling me a fanboi is quite funny as you are the one coming across as one.

For the reason id like to see them go bust well thats my thoughts expressed on a website and i feel under no obligation to give you or anyone else an explination for it.

Yes its a forum, i realised that. These are my thoughts like yours. Now you and i can continue this petty little show of thoughts and aggro or we can let someone else talk about it. Cos quite frankly i couldnt care. As for what i have to do, i dont need to do anything. I dont care if people want to debate and converse about what i say. Im just one more person in a long line of others

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Look at the thriving Tournament scene.

Are you speaking of the thriving tournament scene that was canceled this year?

Given the indy events could pick up the slack just fine. Having been to my share of indy events though, I could probably be playing checkers and having just as much fun. The game itself does not drive these events, the players do. If anything, the game tends to get in the way. See the invitational at Adepticon (which I declined participating in) which featured a staggering 4 meta-army types, or the gladiator event featuring the top 2 spots taken by unassaultable titans due to cheap flyers with large custom flying bases that can't be moved through?
People go to these things for the love of the hobby and the fun of getting together with a big group of people and having a good time. But when the game is so fubar that your armylist could be reduced to a set of 4 checkboxes for participating in the top tables, I'd hardly call that games tournament scene 'thriving'.
Check one:
Horde orks ( )
Bike nobs ( )
Dual Lash ( )
Mech eldar ( )

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
...and come over as a Fanboi just expecting people to agree with you.

Lulz.
Mad Doc, you are the most fan-ly fanboi of GW I've read on these forums, you are forever in a state of defending them, if GW were burning babies, you would congratulate their reduction of fossil fuel emission.

The tournament scene is thriving? It is running due to the efforts of volunteers, the previously supported tournaments are being closed down, Jevis 'The Mouth of Sauron' Johnson is in a constant diatribe against them and the people that play them. The GW shops are, like the glossy monthly catalogue, aimed at new players (principally young, parent wage supported). GW does need a serious rival and in one field, the scifi game, there are alot of fantasy figure makers but if we had more of the scifi (where GW's money is) then we would see them up their game.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:How have GW stabbed people in the back? You keep making statements like that and fail to ackb them up.

It's ok to be a fanboi. It's ok to post things that are deliberatly obtuse. It's even ok to post prolifically. But if you're doing all three, your persona starts to become defined by your relentless, and often poor, apologetics for GW. Now, I agree that a fair amount of the abuse GW gets is undeserved, but there are better ways to fight that fire than by pretending that certain facts aren't common knowledge. If I were to say, "Apartheid was bad" you wouldn't expect me to actually back that statement every time I made it, would you? LIkewise, Gw has a track history of boning it's fans, from canceling squats, quietly taking LatD out back and having it shot, last years "bonus" price increase four months after the annual increase, the refusal to create FAQs, the current IG heavy weapon basing debacle, etc. You can argue each of those individually, to be sure, but the point is, there is probably enough evidence in the atmosphere to stop pretending that GW actually cares about the gamer fanbase.

You said the current Space Marine Codex has been 'dumbed down'. In what way? Just another example of a statement you made with no back up.

Again, have you read any of the threads on this site? Like, at all? The removal of traits, the streamlining of squad options, the removal of an armory, and the ending of separate price structures for different units are all aspects that make the book less complicated, and added granularity.

Are the GW rules really that terrible? I don't think so. Considering the amount of stuff they have in the game, I'm amazed there is any kind of balance. The people I game with do play other games, but play GW most of all. Look at the thriving Tournament scene. Seems to fly in the face of your assesment.

You're close to making a valid point here, so I'm not really going to rebut it, but I would add that the most recent rules and codices have all been far more balanced and well structured than previous editions.

I am going to point out that as you don't play 40k (IIRC), defending GW's actions with regards to 40k aren't exactly in your jurisdiction. Meaning, people that are invested in the game aren't horribly interested in hearing what a guy that's not affect thinks.

Also to add. I didnt mention all GW rules just 40k which as has bee pointed out there are plenty to talk about on threads all ready made.

And i said in a previous post i really do like the WOTR rules so i didnt say about GW rules being all that bad

In fairness to MDG I think his point about backing a statement with facts is valid for various reasons:

It actually makes you re-read the parts of the rules / codex you have a problem with. This allows you to then have a chance to confirm in your head that it is still a valid point, or in fact on reflection it wasn't as bad you first thought.

With the example listed on the board, people can themselves take a look and again can review the said section, and in fact compare it with someone else's ruleseut.

For all their perceived faults for me I have two reasons why I no longer play.

1. I like the fluff too much and find the game itself fails to match it in game play.
2. Cost of an army to play a decent game with, compared to other systems.

Blegh. PP and GW are apples to oranges really. The only thing that keeps them the same is that they both sell miniatures and games that use said miniatures.

GW Strengths:

Huge player base
Huge retailer base
Huge model range
Huge conversion potential
Easily accessable mythos

GW Weaknessess

Loose ruleset - Ruleset encourages rigid play (i.e. units do one thing).
Terrible rules support (FAQs Updates)
Poor rapport between GW and player base (almost nonexistent)
Many sub-par units

PP Strengths

Tight ruleset, ruleset encourages flexible play (i.e. units can do multiple things).
Good rapport between PP and player base

PP Weaknessess

Stock is inconsistent - often out of stock, at the source
Small(er than GW) player base
Small(er than GW) retail base
Mythos is more of a niche storyline (compared to GW)

I've given up trying to compare them. They are inherently different products. I get different things out of the two games. With GW's product, I revel in their great background. I try to produce flavourful converted armies. With Privateer's product, the gameplay itself is more enjoyable, as it is better able to reward a clever general. I find 40k's ruleset extremely limiting compared to Warmachine/Hordes as 40k's units have unified speeds, artificially narrow targetting rules, and rigidly defined roles.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:The tournament scene is thriving? It is running due to the efforts of volunteers, the previously supported tournaments are being closed down, Jevis 'The Mouth of Sauron' Johnson is in a constant diatribe against them and the people that play them. The GW shops are, like the glossy monthly catalogue, aimed at new players (principally young, parent wage supported).

Indeed. GW has done everything they can to weed out tournaments and the accompanying mindset, short of actually going out and saying "We don't like your kind here, sod off", which I am willing to chalk up under good business sense.

How have GW stabbed people in the back?

I don't know that they have "stabbed" people in the back, but they have done some pretty messed up things to the customers and fans.

Here's a quick run down
1. Squats, although I hate them myself, if I bought, converted, and painted a huge army all those years ago and now couldn't play them, I'd be mighty upset.
2. Necromunda, GorkaMorka, Mordheim, BFG, and almost all the other specialist games. These games were hyped and hyped and pushed and pushed. And while they are great games, within about a year or two of their release GW support pretty much dried up, after fans had spent their money. Then the next "little" game came out. Nothing makes makes me more upset at GW than not supporting these little games at all.
3. The fact that between codex's sometimes units will become more or less powerful or sometimes obsolete entirely, making the models that some players spent money and hours on, aren't viable or aren't usable anymore.
4. lack of support for rules, although I don't play PPS games, I admire they way they release rules all at once, even if there might not be models for them yet.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still a GW fanboy. But I see where thier faults are, and it frustrates me.

Daggermaw wrote:

Don't get me wrong, I'm still a GW fanboy. But I see where thier faults are, and it frustrates me.

Hell, substitute fanboy for retailer, and it's worse! They have a frustrating combination of the best support of any game company, and yet do some insanely frustrating things. They and can be great to work with one day, but then another part of the company does something that makes you bang your head on the floor. After 20 years, I still can't figure them out, but I like them enough that I'll gladly spend another 20 years trying again.

Well, I think their unique position towards retailers comes from their unique structure as a publicly traded company. Most gaming companies are small operations, closely held corps. They often care more about being cool to gamers than making money, which is nice, but often leads to inefficient operations. In many ways, GW's relentless quest for profits gives it a stability and professionalism that other companies lack. OTOH, they are really no longer answerable to the fans.

I've long said that GW's problem isn't so much in what it does, but in how it announces and spins what it does. A half decent PR department could help them avoid needlessly pissing off gamers quite so much.

There are you just have to look for them type in Science Fiction miniatures models into Google and see what you get. This lot are the main ones I've got high hopes for http://wargamesfactory.com/Home.htm There are several pther small firms making alternatives. The problem is an alternative ruleset. I thought I had a great one with Confrontation but sadly pre-paints happened.

Slipstream wrote:For a while I've wondered why there hasn't been a viable (Cheaper?)
alternative to 40k. There may be good rules kicking about out there,but I
think the sticking point is this:figures.The big advantage that GW
has over any other companies is that they have a huge range of plastics
that allow us to have as big or small battles as we wish.Other companies
may have a rule system that works,but as they only cast in metal,this
makes building up big armies impossible in terms of cost.So are they
dooming themselves to just being small skirmish games that we play
rarely?Wwith more and more historical companies making plastic figures
will Scifi/fantasy manufacturers follow?This is the only way anyone
will wrestle GW's stanglehold on the market.If they have a genuine
rival who can produce rules and figures that are aimed at the 40k sized
armies,hell,we may have a price war aka Asda and Tescos!
What do you think?

It's not about the cost. The rules cost of GW is colossal and outweighs any possible saving on armies.

Not to mention there are various companies whose metal figures are cheaper than GW's plastic ones, in 28mm, see Pig Iron for example.

Also, 15mm and 6mm figures are cheaper still and much better for modern/SF combat with long range weapons and vehicles than 28mm.

The reason why GW remain so big is because most 12-year old boys' first exposure to wargaming is GW, because they have been so big for so long. That's why they maintain the retail network at such expense -- it is a frontline recruiting post for new players. Also lots of players around, who having spent lots of money, time and effort building up GW are hardly likely to tell their friends it's rubbish and you would be much better off playing DBA or Battletech or something.

Don't forget, the majority of GW's customers are lightweights who dip in for a few years and drop out again. Probably everyone on Dakka is unusual because they are long-term players and a lot of us play all kinds of games, not just GW. We are the hardcore.

GAMERZ 4 LIEF!!11

Hi all.
The biggest rival to GW is 'independant thought'.
The wargames hobby , rather than the very expencive fraction that is 'GW Hobby'.

Those that look at the wider hobby can find much better value for money!

But those dependant on being spoon fed GWs marketing ploys,are going to be hard pressed to break out of the apethetic mindset GW promotes.

Just my personal opinion.

TTFN
Lanrak.

MDG: When we say PP puts out rules we tend to mean they rule on things via their
forums and put together a living FAQ that is on their forums. But that probably has
more to do with the differences in size between the two companies.

PS Collecting is a hobby. Prepainted games aren't Paint and Build games, but they are
a hobby game.