Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Gwar doesn't break anything, he just looks at the broken parts and they get bigger.

I don't have my rulebooks w/me but I thought this was how it worked.

1. Make a reserve roll for each squadron/platoon/unit to see which are available.
2. You may mount available infantry units in available non-dedicated transports.

The problem is Kadun, that each Valkyrie in the squadron has a squad from a different Platoon in it, so if Platoon #1 and Valkyrie Squad #1 Rolls to come on, but Platoon #2 Doesn't, what happens? The Squad from Platoon #2 cannot deploy because it has not passed it's reserve roll, but all 3 Valkyries must deploy together as a squadron. That is the problem here.

Gwar! wrote:The problem is Kadun, that each Valkyrie in the squadron has a squad from a different Platoon in it, so if Platoon #1 and Valkyrie Squad #1 Rolls to come on, but Platoon #2 Doesn't, what happens? The Squad from Platoon #2 cannot deploy because it has not passed it's reserve roll, but all 3 Valkyries must deploy together as a squadron. That is the problem here.

Right, but what I'm saying is that you do not mount the units in the Valkyries until after you determine if they're available.

You roll for Valk Squadron. Its coming in.
You roll for platoon #1. Its coming in.
You roll for platoon #2. It is not coming in.

You see you have platoon #1 coming in along with the Valk Squadron.

Now you mount platoon #1 in the Valk Squadron.

Incorrect Kadun, page 94 is very clear on when you declare who is in what reserved transports (hint, it isn't after Reserve rolls).

kadun wrote:

Gwar! wrote:The problem is Kadun, that each Valkyrie in the squadron has a squad from a different Platoon in it, so if Platoon #1 and Valkyrie Squad #1 Rolls to come on, but Platoon #2 Doesn't, what happens? The Squad from Platoon #2 cannot deploy because it has not passed it's reserve roll, but all 3 Valkyries must deploy together as a squadron. That is the problem here.

Right, but what I'm saying is that you do not mount the units in the Valkyries until after you determine if they're available.

Oh God-Emperor... No, that is so wrong it is not funny. You have to state what transport each unit is in pre game when you place them in reserves. Re-read the reserves rules please.

Page 94 wrote:Similarly. the player must specify if any transport vehicle in reserve is carrying any of the infantry units and/or independent characters in reserve.

This happens before deployment.

Ok, my mistake, I thought I've read it somewhere otherwise.

So, Consensus Time, as making this a Poll would be too much effort on my part

How are you going to play 3 Squadrons of Valkyries with squads from 3 Different Platoons in each?

a) One roll for the whole Bunch.
2) 3 Rolls for the Squad+Transport, nothing moving on if even 1 fails, repeat each turn until all pass.
iii) 3 Rolls for the Squad+Transport, putting aside those that pass, but not moving on until they all pass. Roll for each one that has not passed each turn until all have passed.
Four) Ignore the Platoon rule and roll 1 Dice for each Squadron Of Valkyries, moving them on with whatever squads happen to be inside when they pass the Roll, Platoon Special Rules be Damned!

Dedicated transports box specifies the dedicated transports as being the ones you can take, like "may be mounted in a chimera if numbering...", and don't take up FoC slots. Look at the marine 5th ed book for example. It lists what are dedicated transports. Dedicated transports are also a specific thing under each infantry heading. Even for the FOC-seperate land raider: "One terminator squad in the army may select a Land Raider of any type as its dedicated transport".

BRB bit on preparing reserves says the player must specify if a transport is carrying something, but that rule in itself is only about everyone knowing what's in what so they don't get switched around afterwards, but doesn't say anything about being able to break other rules. Since valks aren't DEDICATED transports to anyone, this situation shouldn't even appear in the first place. They're not FORCED to carry people, they just have room for models.

The squadron should, at best, be able to carry multiple parts of a single platoon when deploying: They're a single unit of transports, and should therefore be limited to a single FOC of infantry. Anything else requires "interpretation". Platoons are seperate FOC rolls, and this entire ordeal is an attempt to abuse a combination of FOC limitations/restrictions and a lack of specification in what a squadron of transports (pretty new after all) is capable of. Apocalypse formations that allow stuff to show up together have a price for it and specify that they do. No rule here specifies the guard can pull this off. just a whole lot of "but if you look at the rule that way".

If nothing says you can do it and all you can do is find a lack of specific rules to the contrary, the fact that you're breaking FOC/deployment rules to pull this off means its an illegal (and rather dick) move. The player doing this has to specifically want to pull this off; he's not being screwed over by bad wording, he's trying to weasel his way into an advantage with questionable wording. That's how I'd see it anyways. I vote "they're all lost and give points like someone had stuck a baneblade over your webway portal".

On a day where I'm feeling much nicer, I'd say options 3 or 4 of yours, Gwar, are best. 4 being ideal in terms of reasonable and fair play, but 3 being the one they deserve.

Purely RAW to the max, its 1.

Game play wise, I would go with 4.

I could expand this to make all 6 troops and 9 Valkyries come in on the same turn.

Im not sure how you get that RAW arrives at conclusion 1. I don't think it's addressed at all.



The best option, is not to allow someone to put 3 different platoons, in 3 different Squadrons. You can't break the rules at all, so no bringing in one squad of Valks, and damn the platoon special rules as an option.

It's too bad some people won't use common sense on something like this.



Clay

Primarch wrote:The best option, is not to allow someone to put 3 different platoons, in 3 different Squadrons. You can't break the rules at all, so no bringing in one squad of Valks, and damn the platoon special rules as an option.

No Offence, but that has as much weight as not letting me put my Grey Hunter Squads in their Drop Pods.

RaW its possibly one because, the rules say you roll one dice for Squad and Transport, and the Platoon rules say you roll one dice for the Platoon. Since one squad of the platoon is in each squadron, you roll one dice for the Platoon and any Transports it is in. If the Transports happen to be in 3 Squadrons, so be it. I brought this up as there are other possible ways of playing it, but sticking as close to the rules as possible, it is one dice for the whole lot.

I would say you have to roll for each separate unit and the Valks cannot come in until all separate units have passed their reserve rolls.

G

yakface wrote:With that said, I think the way that most people will end up playing this is that a single roll would be made for the Valkyrie Squadron with embarked units and then regular Reserve rolls will be made for the rest of the platoons separately. . .but I could be wrong.

This.

I would have to stand that RAW doesn't support the theory that you'd have to roll for the bunch as a whole.

The IG codex states that "Each infantry platoon counts as a single Troops choice on the force organization chart when deploying, and is rolled for collectively when rolling for reserves." (Pg 36 IG Codex)

The BRB states, for reserves, "...the player must specify if any transport vehicle in reserve is carrying any of the infantry units and/or independent characters in reserve. If they do, the unit and the transport will be rolled for together and will arrive together." (Pg 94 BRB)

The IG codex rule does nothing to state it changes how the collective reserve roll interacts with how individual units of the Infantry Platoon will work with non-dedicated transports; in this case, specifically how units taken from an Infantry Platoon are affected in relation to the IG codex ruling for collective reserve rolls and the BRB's non-dedicated transport reserves ruling.

However, the BRB makes clear that any infantry units or independent characters in reserve, that are specified to be inside of a non-dedicated transport will be rolled for together and arrive together. The rules aren't mutually exclusive, but instead can both apply without breaking a thing.

Example:

You have three infantry platoons. You load one squad of Imperial Guard, or one infantry unit into a squadron of three Valkyries. You do not roll for them as one big bunch from the Valkyrie, as the rules are explicit - the infantry units and the non-dedicated transports (Valkyries) are rolled for together and will arrive together. They are separated from their infantry platoon - the IG Codex ruling doesn't say that it changes how individual units of the Platoon interact in relation to non-dedicated transports. In essence, the two rules work in tandem - Infantry units assigned to non-dedicated transports separate from the rest of the platoon will be rolled for separately, with the non-dedicated transport. So, in the example used, you would roll for your three infantry platoons separately, and then for the Valkyrie squadron separately, and it would arrive with the three infantry squads contained within.

To ultimately sum, the rules are not mutually exclusive. The IG Codex rule doesn't state that it overrides how the BRB works in terms of non-dedicate transports and reserves, and the BRB ruling itself makes explicitly clear that individual infantry squads are counted separately and rolled separately with the non-dedicated transport the infantry unit is being transported in.

Hi guys,

I'll admit to being fairly new to all this and also not having my rulebook on me right now, but I was playing my friend with his Imperial Guard army the other day and this topic cropped up, I thought I'd share our solution adn seek some more experienced advice.

Our conclusion was that the rules for transports state that each transport may only hold a single unit; seeing as an IG platoon is a single unit under the FOC, as is the Valkyrie squadron, surely you can only assign one platoon to one squadron? Also, given that the platoon is only divided once it hits the field, surely the transport rules demand that whatever transport is assigned to the unit must have sufficient capacity to carry the entire unit, if you intend to deploy within the transport.

Any thoughts/opinions/offers to tell me where to go?

Jadenim wrote:seeing as an IG platoon is a single unit under the FOC, as is the Valkyrie squadron, surely you can only assign one platoon to one squadron?

A Platoon isn't a single Unit - it is a single FOC choice made up of several Units. A Unit is defined in the BGB (p.3). In game terms, it is a collection of models that is required to stay within coherency (unless its a single model).

EDIT: Also, welcome to Dakka

Gwar! wrote:
Possible Situation #1:
1) When you roll for reserves, you must roll one dice for each Platoon and one for each Squadron of Valkyries.
2) You roll all the dice.
3) All but Platoon #1's Roll says "Move on"
4) Since Platoon #1 Cannot move on, all 3 Valkyrie Squadrons cannot, as each has a squad from Platoon #1 that cannot arrive, which means the other Platoons cannot because Platoons do not arrive piecemeal.
5) Therefore, in order for the Platoons and Valkaries to arrive, all the reserve dice must be successful. If one is a failure, nothing can move on.

I would see that as the RAW interpretation. It's the only way to break no rules.

Even tho it seems so wrong, i'd say one succesful roll would bring them all on the table.
Rulebook says on page 94 "You must roll for reserves as soon as possible and must bring them onto table soon as they are available"
So.. if platoon #1 is available, it must be brought on to table, taking transport with it. Which would have to take other platoons with them too. All because platoon #1 isn't allowed to wait.
Personally, i would argue with putting 3 different units in one transporting unit. That alone seems so wrong. But Rules are rules.

Gwar! wrote:

Step 1) Units may embark on a non dedicated transport while in reserve.

Where do you get this? I don't see a single rule that says this is possible. All I see is "Remember that a dedicated transport can only be deployed, and consequently can only be kept in reserve, either empty or transporting the unit it was selected with (plus any independent characters)."

What that says to me, since we're learning about context on these forums is that if the dedicated transport (which, is clear in every codex, must be selected with a particular unit if it is possible, otherwise it is simply a tank with transport capacity) is selected with a unit, it can only be deployed with that unit. Infantry platoons cannot "select" a dedicated transport of a Valkyrie, therefore it must be deployed empty. Is there a rule that says otherwise?

puma713 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Step 1) Units may embark on a non dedicated transport while in reserve.

Where do you get this?

The reserve rules...

Page 94. Subheading: Preparing Reserves. Paragraph: Four. Sentence: One.

.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:

puma713 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Step 1) Units may embark on a non dedicated transport while in reserve.

Where do you get this?

The reserve rules...

Page 94. Subheading: Preparing Reserves. Paragraph: Four. Sentence: One.

I don't see a single rule that says this is possible. All I see is "Remember that a dedicated transport can only be deployed, and consequently can only be kept in reserve, either empty or transporting the unit it was selected with (plus any independent characters)."

What that says to me, since we're learning about context on these forums is that if the dedicated transport (which, is clear in every codex, must be selected with a particular unit if it is possible, otherwise it is simply a tank with transport capacity) is selected with a unit, it can only be deployed with that unit. Infantry platoons cannot "select" a dedicated transport of a Valkyrie, therefore it must be deployed empty. Is there a rule that says otherwise?

It may say "it may carry any. . ." (because I know that you're taking that any to mean anything in your army), but it specifies what you can and cannot deploy in a transport at the end of that paragraph. Just because it says "any", does that mean that I can deploy a unit of 10 Ogryn in a chimera? I know that the codex says you can't (just like the rulebook says you must deploy with the selected squad or empty), but that sentence says "any" and we don't read context.

Errrm. You did read Sentence 1 like I said yes? I'll even quote Sentence 2 for you:

Similarly, the player must specify if any transport vehicle in reserve is carrying any of the infantry units and/or independent characters in reserve. If they do, the unit and the transport will be rolled for together and will arrive together.

The "Selected Squad or Empty" applies ONLY to Dedicated transports. Non Dedicated transports do not have this restriction.

Gwar! wrote:Errrm. You read Sentence 1 like I said yes?

Similarly, the player must specify if any transport vehicle in reserve is carrying any of the infantry units and/or independent characters in reserve. If they do, the unit and the transport will be rolled for together and will arrive together.

Yep. Then they clarify a few sentences down (remember, specific > general):

". . a dedicated transport can only be deployed and, consequently, can only be kept in reserve, either empty or transporting the unit it was selected with (plus any independent characters)."

Since an infantry platoon cannot "select" a Valkyrie (just like a terminator cannot "select" a battlecannon, it's simply not in their options), then they cannot be deployed inside one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:Errrm. You did read Sentence 1 like I said yes? I'll even quote Sentence 2 for you:

Similarly, the player must specify if any transport vehicle in reserve is carrying any of the infantry units and/or independent characters in reserve. If they do, the unit and the transport will be rolled for together and will arrive together.

The "Selected Squad or Empty" applies ONLY to Dedicated transports. Non Dedicated transports do not have this restriction.

Gotcha, that's where the difference is.

Edited because Puma ninja'd me and retracted his opinion

Alerian wrote:Edited because Puma ninja'd me and retracted his opinion

Yay for rules .

My stab at this question:

Since the issue is with the guard rule for platoons, lets see what was said--assuming the following is an accurate quote... "Each infantry platoon counts as a single Troops choice on the force organization chart when deploying [who cares, many things do this, such as anything with a dedicated transport counts as the same FOC CHOICE... the use of the word choice was poor here], and is rolled for collectively when rolling for reserves [actual rules, when rolling for the units in a platoon IN RESERVE, one roll will bring them all in]." (Pg 36 IG Codex)

So, 3 platoons, all with 1 element embarked in a valkyrie forming a 3 valk squad.

Roll for reserves, making 3 rolls for 3 platoons. If you get all 3 rolls then there is no issue. If you get 1 or 2 of the 3, proceed as follows.

Deploy the entire first platoon from reserve, as the IG codex says. This will bring with it the attached valk squadron. The valk squadron will also have troop units inside it depending on what you put in them.

If you rolled for a second platoon of 3 from reserve, deploy this platoon now. As one squad is aleady deployed from the valk squadron, this squad is not in reserve any more, and thus is not part of any collaborative roll for bringing on a unit from reserve.

The third platoon, which was not rolled for, stays in reserve with the exception of the one squad that is already deployed in a valk. No rule is broken, as you will still be rolling for the platoon units in RESERVE collectively.

Thoughts?

If you do that, then you are breaking the rules for the platoon counting as one unit for reserves.

Whether we like it or not, and whether it was intended or not, this is what must be done, by RAW, without breaking any rule:

1. You would make a roll for each of the 3 platoons (because the rules say we have to), as well as a roll for the valk squadron (as it too is a unit, and as such requires a reserve roll).

2. If ANY of them come in, then all 3 platoons, and the Valk squad MUST come in, or you end up breaking a rule.

Alerian wrote:If you do that, then you are breaking the rules for the platoon counting as one unit for reserves.

Whether we like it or not, and whether it was intended or not, this is what must be done, by RAW, without breaking any rule:

1. You would make a roll for each of the 3 platoons (because the rules say we have to), as well as a roll for the valk squadron (as it too is a unit, and as such requires a reserve roll).

2. If ANY of them come in, then all 3 platoons, and the Valk squad MUST come in, or you end up breaking a rule.

Surely bringing on a unit that did not pass it's reserve roll is breaking a rule?

ETA:

The only way to avoid breaking any rules is to bring the units on only when all the reserve rolls are passed. Otherwise you are splitting up platoons (rule break) or bringing on units that have not passed their reserve roll (rule break).

Of course, leaving a unit in reserve when it's passed it's roll is also a rule break but if it's a transport with an embarked unit that can't come on or vice versa then we have grounds for justifying why it's not eligible to come on.


ETA2

Actually, thinking about it again, the only way to break no rule is to split the valk and passengers if not everyone makes their roll.

E.g. two of the three platoons and the valks make the roll. Third platoon must be left in reserve (including the squad that was embarked). Then no rules are broken.

Scott-S6 wrote:Actually, thinking about it again, the only way to break no rule is to split the valk and passengers if not everyone makes their roll.

E.g. two of the three platoons and the valks make the roll. Third platoon must be left in reserve (including the squad that was embarked). Then no rules are broken.

I'd prefer a more elegant solution, one that was already suggested here. As the situation is extraordinary to begin with we might as well house rule it a bit. I really can't agree with suddenly disembarking a reserve unit when we already declared it embarked, you see. Disregarding the embarked units of the platoons solves this problem.

I'd roll the platoons and the Valkyries separately but have the passengers count as part of the Valk squadron in the interest of smooth gameplay.