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To meet people to play the game with, to socialize, a good meeting place to later go out drinking (for those old enough), discover NEW games (I have developed a hankerin' for the game "Munchkins"), somewhere to play games, learn painting techniques, ect.... Why would you NOT care if your local hobby shop closes?

Well, for some of us...
- we don't have random walk-in strangers interrupting (private property FTW!)
- we can spend the day playing or yakking without contraints
- we have beer on site (unlike any hobby shop I've ever been to)
- we can bring any game we like (unlike a GW store)
- we have our garages to play in
- we can paint, or not
- etc.

So far, you haven't given me a reason to care if any of my local shops close.

Your's doesn't include socialising with people outside of your current circle of friends. Our local hobby shop has over 80 members. This pool of patrons makes for a lot of good connections (for more than just gaming). You see games you and your friends might not have noticed, you get to meet new people and expand your horizons, you very well may get invited to places you're not used to (bars, restaurants, tourisms, ect...), you have to deal with people who don't exclusively appeal to you (my GOD! I know!), and I could go on for quite a lengthy post listing such advantages, not to mention you are employing your neighbors and decreasing unemployment.

I suppose I can go to a game convention for what you're describing.

Interesting facts:
- in all the years I've been garage gaming, I've never had an issue with stuff getting stolen.
- in the years which I gamed at a LHS, two guys got their stuff jacked, with one guy's car window smashed.
- when I want to go to bars, I go to bars.

Really, at-home gaming is far more comfortable than in-store gaming, and that's the primary attraction.

It sounds like you just prefer to at home game and I'm sure have a whole hat full of reasons. Obviously 80 people in my area prefer to game at a hobby shop, get to experience of meeting new people in the hobby, see new things in person, ect... all the benefits of socializing outside a predetermined pool of people.

As an adult, why wouldn't I prefer to game at home?

Sure you've got 80 people at the shop. Nothing wrong with that.

But many of us don't need shops / do just fine without and could care less.

So saying that MO is destroying the hobby is kind of odd.

I would say a fat chunk, if not the majority, of players don't have the space to game at home, or out of garages. The majority go to hobby shops. Without hobby shops, these people wouldn't be playing, without them playing, there would be no profit (or enough to cover expenses). Without that, nobody would make games, and then where would we be?

I refuse to believe that it's doom & gloom if a few hobby stores close.

It's a bit more, my dear DD. As I just meantioned, four or five have gone under in the last couple of years. A lot of people have gotten out of the game with GW's recent price hikes or have stopped buying from stores and gone to the online stores. Online stores have no overhead (holding stock, paying rent, utilities, insurances, tables, displays, ect...) compared to online stores. More people are attending (it's cheaper than going to the movies or other pass times), but less money is going to the shops. I predict my shop will have fewer and fewer hours soon, maybe even close its doors. This is happening all over the country. I don't think this ailing economy will spell the end for 40k, but there are more games out there than just 40k. Odds are, people like DD don't care about others, but I feel bad for all the people who may miss out on a great hobby, meeting good and interesting people, and the quickening death of a long standing, once very popular, hobbies.

Skin, c'mon man, we've been over this.

John's way is the right way because John is always right about everything and never wrong except when he is wrong but he always knows when he is going to be wrong which makes him right. Always.

That and you can't argue with a wall...

Skinnattittar wrote:It's a bit more, my dear DD. As I just meantioned, four or five have gone under in the last couple of years. A lot of people have gotten out of the game with GW's recent price hikes or have stopped buying from stores and gone to the online stores. Online stores have no overhead (holding stock, paying rent, utilities, insurances, tables, displays, ect...) compared to online stores. More people are attending (it's cheaper than going to the movies or other pass times), but less money is going to the shops. I predict my shop will have fewer and fewer hours soon, maybe even close its doors. This is happening all over the country. I don't think this ailing economy will spell the end for 40k, but there are more games out there than just 40k. Odds are, people like DD don't care about others, but I feel bad for all the people who may miss out on a great hobby, meeting good and interesting people, and the quickening death of a long standing, once very popular, hobbies.

The game store is a dying breed because it is a buisness model that is being slowly but surely outmoded by the advance of society and technology. On line ordering is cheaper and convenient and computer gaming competes with traditional wargaming more then ever before and will continue to do so more and more as the tech advances.

When I was a young geek in the early eighties in a rural town we had nothing else to do but play D&D and Battletech 12 hours a day and hang out at the game store becasue we had little else to satisfy our nerd hunger. No internets, no x-box live, no MMO, etc. these things were not mainstream and common so we engaged in and bought heavily standard nerd fare (wargames, rpgs).

Today traditional gaming has far more competition and the competition is becoming increasingly more and more accessible and stimulating.


I predict in 50 years you will be hard pressed to find an actual brick and mortar gaming store that specializes only in traditional geek fodder.

The times they are a changing...

Buy from Super Hero Game Land

25% off prices, and free shipping over $125. I've used them several times before. Fast with the orders and saved me a bunch of money. I recommend!

@ CT Gamer : Yes, all that is very true, the greatest wound to gaming and modeling in general has been video games. They are cheaper, easier, and give instant gratification. Plus you don't actually have to interact with people to play them!

While I agree gaming stores are a dying breed, I don't think they will ever completely become extinct. I started gaming in the late 90's in rural NH. We have plenty of alternatives to sitting inside playing games, video or otherwise, but I play (and all the other young gamers I know) because there is something about table games that you can't get from computers or TV. So there will probably be one around somewhere, tucked in the back of the town, run by and old gamer who has enough money to just run a small store and a few tables. Hey! That's my hobby shop! Except he's a Cold War vet and we ruminate about our epic battles against the Russians during WWIII a lot, and curse the college kids standing out in the square having anti-war protests (Obama has reversed his Iraq War policy and is following Bush's plan almost verbatim but I don't see any protests anymore...). Generally act like we're grizzled vets of wars that never happened...

@ Wall : AAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!

Ah the internet store vs LGS debate. It may be one thing when the LGS is willing to negotiate price differences with online retailers, but if they refuse to lower prices to match said online retailers then buisness will go elsewhere.

Like my FLGS: the guys are great, and I still buy blisters of small stuff from them, but I'm probably going to go online for my valks, tanks, and battleforces or anything that seems expensive. They dont want to match prices, and I understand that, but it causes me to find other places so I save money.

I just worry that 40k will become a reclusive thing if the brick and mortar stores close. I like playing there, and I prefer to. But if they close, where will I play? I hope that at the very least, if stores stop selling 40k stuff, they still hold events.......

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote:In all seriousness, buy from your Local Hobby Shop. Companies like The War Store are closing shops all over the country.

I buy my supplies (paint, brushes, etc.) from the local art store.
I play in garages.

What do I need a LGS for? Why should I care if they close?

oooh harsh

I got 5 for $60.

Bought one out of pocket, got another as the prize for a local league, got 2 more for winning a RTT (used store credit to cover the difference, so I guess that was ~30), and when I opened one of them up, it was missing the multi-laser, so I got a 5th in the mail from GW. If you are patient, and patronize your FLGS, you get lucky at times.

ShadowRocket wrote:Ah the internet store vs LGS debate. It may be one thing when the LGS is willing to negotiate price differences with online retailers, but if they refuse to lower prices to match said online retailers then buisness will go elsewhere.

Like my FLGS: the guys are great, and I still buy blisters of small stuff from them, but I'm probably going to go online for my valks, tanks, and battleforces or anything that seems expensive. They dont want to match prices, and I understand that, but it causes me to find other places so I save money.

I just worry that 40k will become a reclusive thing if the brick and mortar stores close. I like playing there, and I prefer to. But if they close, where will I play? I hope that at the very least, if stores stop selling 40k stuff, they still hold events.......

Why in hell would a store hold an event if they stopped selling the product? Especially for people that 'like playing there' but ' will be going online for my Valks, tanks, and battleforces'. If you want a place to play and you want events, then make it possible by supporting your store. Otherwise, go play in the space provided by the internet.

The reason that you LGS won't match the internet price is because he has more expenses. Those expenses come from keeping stock available for you to buy when you want, providing game space, and holding events. If you want them to pricematch, expect to see those benefits go away. Can't have both.

What an absolutely disheartening thread.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
That's not a response to your post, Mikhaila.

So here is how my endevour to get cheap Valkyrie's turned out. As you recall I ended up going with Wargame Empire out of the UK.

I placed my order in the evening on 13 May. I received 2 Valks on 23 May and the remaining 6 Valks on 26 May. 25 May was Memorial Day (no US mail) so I think they all may have arrived even sooner if not for the holiday. That is 10 to 13 days from payment to door step. Not bad for an overseas purchase in my opinion. Also note that I live on the US east coast so that probably helped with shipping time.

Wargame Empire were very good about quickly responding to my email queries. And they fixed a minor shipping cost/electronic shopping cart error promptly and professionally.

After shipping costs, exchange rates etc. I ended up paying approx $40 and some change for each of the eight Valkyrie that I bought. That is over a 30% discount on retail US prices even after you acount for shipping etc. I presume he would have given me an even better price had I purchased more.

In the end I can say that I am pleased with Wargame Empire and the service they rendered. I give them a thumbs up and would recommend them to my freinds.

mikhaila wrote:
Why in hell would a store hold an event if they stopped selling the product? Especially for people that 'like playing there' but ' will be going online for my Valks, tanks, and battleforces'. If you want a place to play and you want events, then make it possible by supporting your store. Otherwise, go play in the space provided by the internet.

The reason that you LGS won't match the internet price is because he has more expenses. Those expenses come from keeping stock available for you to buy when you want, providing game space, and holding events. If you want them to pricematch, expect to see those benefits go away. Can't have both.

I agree, but for large orders like this it's more in the FLGS's interest to price match. Prices and expenses and everything is the same, but if I'm placing a big order, why wouldn't my FLGS match the Warstore? It's still profitable, the stuff doesn't sit on the shelf, and it's sticking it to online retailers. No, i'm not going to haggle over every blister or codex, but if I'm dropping a couple hundred bucks, I'm going to play lets make a deal.

And by the way, I've got no problem paying a table fee to play. I'll drop some money to be able to play, just like I'd pay to bowl or golf. I know it's probably untenable as a business model, but I'd rather pay for the service I get, than try to match my purchases to my usage, especially since I mostly buy used stuff on eBay anyway.

What keeps baffling me is that a lot of people don't have any comprehension of how these businesses run. "Price Matching" only helps if your overhead is low, meaning the money you HAVE to spend whether you are making sales or not, things like rent, utilities, licenses, maintenance, employees, taxes, and the like. These online stores have practically zero over head. They carry no stock so have no tied up investments (money that could be spent elsewhere), they are usually employed by only a few people, which most local stores are too, their utilities are not increased much by their business, as they tend to run them out of their homes or jointed with their other businesses, if they have one. Their profits on sales are lower compared to your stores, but since they are not isolated by geography (their customers come to them via online methods or phone) so they make up for profits per unit by volume of units, that's how they can manage it. Stores can't be bothered with sales that will make them no money by taking up their time that they could use doing other things, or even if they service one person with a cheap sale, they have to for others. Even if they offer a "buy $x and get %y off!" you'll immediately start getting rackets of people organizing to make large orders, and they lose their profits again, if they were going to make any in the first place.

In a capitalistic system, hobby shops are money pits, they can't survive with cheap competition because their hobby isn't geographically required. You don't HAVE to buy from them or game there, so by increasing prices or charging admission they will only alienate their customers who will stay home or order online. Hobby stores survive by charity, people go to them because they know that if they shop there, they will have a place to game and meet people. Some people don't care for this, and that's up to them, that's how hobbies stay small or die when there is no longer any growth. I would no longer be a 40k gamer if it weren't for my hobby shop being open because nobody I know has room for a table worth playing on, or is willing to host twenty-plus people a night.

The simple fact of the matter is, your hobby shop isn't trying to squeeze you for every nickle they can because they are mean (well, none that hang around at least) but because they have to, to keep their doors open. Online shops don't give a crap about you playing or keeping the hobby alive, they are the ones who will try and milk you for every cent. They just want you to keep ordering from them and keep up the volume, and GW isn't helping anyone by not clamping down on these online retailers with some sort of negative to buying from them, like limited selections or not getting new models for several months after shops get them, things like that.

Nothing forces a hobby shop to price match.

And quite frankly, even if the orders don't necessarily drive much, if any, profit, they will at least help cover overhead and meet volume quotas for very little effort.

Plus, they can be prepaid which helps cash flow.

Say a hobby shop gets an item that retails for $50 for $25. To meet over head say they have to sell twenty units a month at $45. Online store doesn't have to sell any units a month to make overhead because they purchase to order, so anything they sell over $25 they are making money on.

So even if the hobby shop sells an item for $40 they are still losing because the online shop can sell for $27.50. It is barely worth it for the hobby shop to sell their stuff for less than what it takes them to break even because they will still fail to meet their requirement.

It is sort of like choosing to be shot in the head point blank an 1" with a .500 Special or a .22, either way your brains are going against the wall, so if you can't choose to not be shot at all it doesn't really matter what you choose.

Skinnattittar wrote:Say a hobby shop gets an item that retails for $50 for $25. To meet over head say they have to sell twenty units a month at $45. Online store doesn't have to sell any units a month to make overhead because they purchase to order, so anything they sell over $25 they are making money on.

So even if the hobby shop sells an item for $40 they are still losing because the online shop can sell for $27.50. It is barely worth it for the hobby shop to sell their stuff for less than what it takes them to break even because they will still fail to meet their requirement.

If the store is in the black generally then your accounting is wrong, if its in the red generally, they're likely going down regardless.

Of course that also failing to take into account various more complex trade mechanics like loss leaders and good PR.

Jack

For hobby stores to survive, they pretty much need to be generating new customers. New customers are usually less informed about their buying options and are more likely to purchase from a brick and mortar store. The loss of brick and mortar stores would pretty much stop new people from joining the hobby. This is a niche hobby and for it to stay alive it needs to find people who enjoy this sort of thing.

Seriously, go to your FLGS. I am getting 30%, because I am paying cash and doing a $700+ order. Deals are there, just don't be shy. Be respectful, but be honest with the owner and you should be good.

One nice thing for the store is that they don't have to take the MO business, and they can place conditions to make it worth their while (e.g. prepay, minimum order).

If they're doing good for the month, they can pass.

If not, an extra $300 - $500 order isn't a bad thing, even if it's at 30% off.

em_en_oh_pee wrote:Seriously, go to your FLGS. I am getting 30%, because I am paying cash and doing a $700+ order. Deals are there, just don't be shy. Be respectful, but be honest with the owner and you should be good.

Most people don't do $700 orders.

Here is my situation:

It is a 40 minute drive to the closest store to me assuming weather/traffic cooperate. Thats eighty minutes of time roundtrip just in travelling. Now tack on gas.

Then i get to pay full retail.

That is assuming that they have what i want. Yes I can call, but half the time the person answering doesn't know the game and says something similar to "you had better come in and talk to one of the gamer dudes", or "can you call back and talk to one of the gamer dudes".

If I need to make a phone call I'm gonna make one to my On-line retailer of choice, get a discount, and have it on my doorstep next day.

As for the supposed advantage of having "80 gamers" to play with. Half the guys hanging at my lgs are tools, the other half smell like ass and the store doesn't have enough room/tables to accommodate us all anyways so i drive all that way to stand around and wait for a table with half-assed terrain.

No contest...

I think its always worth it to have a talko to your FLGS but there are a few general rules you should follow with negotiations. The most important thing is that you two are alone and noone else is listening. And promise that you don't advertise everywhere the potential discount you got.
And be open to other discounts like paint for free. The store owner usually is not so concerned about the few bucks he earns less, then the possible consequences if word spreads that you get discount if you buy in bulk. Since suddenly all the kiddis will gather and try to get advantages...

Well, my shop is not huge, with only 3-6 available boards to play on, but we have only 15-20 players max for tourneys and 4-8 at most any given day. It is a 10min drive for me and the atomsphere is very laid back, most folks are nice, and they are always out to offer a discount. 10% for $100+, 20% for$ 200+ and 30% for $700+. The FLGS isn't for everyone, but for those of us who have them, we should support them (unless you don't play there). For me, if I didn't have the shop, I wouldn't really have a means to play easily.