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It's annoying because you can sit them in front of your army and get a 4 + cover save from disruption fields; then if you want boost 24 inches; if you add in 2 or 3 Flechette rounds then you have 3 chances per model to wound. They can fire at independent targets w/ Flechette rounds.

You can use markerlights to take away squads cover saves beyond them and people shooting beyond them allow your troops and others to get 4+ save.


I wouldnt take 3 squads as looking at the size and footprint physically on the field it would be difficult 2 squads of five thought seems interesting.


Also, dont forget 1 full pirahna squad is basically 2 Fast Attack Options as it comes with a total of 10 gun drones; people may knock gun drones but their free its free troops.


People are also going to see more viability in them with multiple targeting of Transports etc... A 5 man squad can eliminate cover saves from Valkyries completely and blow the gak out of them.

Phryxis wrote:Just doesn't seem like tha great of a list, IMO.

Obviously there's rocks for this scissor in the form of the Hydra spam that the new IG Codex fairly demands...

But even when it's not a list tailored to take on low AV skimmers, you're still looking at AV11/10 skimmers, in squadrons, that depend on mobility, so a lot of damage results are going to mean that a model is gone. Even a Crew Stunned result is basically a dead Piranha. Basically all but one result on the chart are enough to waste the Piranha.

In squadron, Crew Stunned becomes Shaken. Remember that if taking hits from multiple sources, Piranha player can assign hits to already shaken/damaged Piranhas to ensure that as many as possible Piranhas are operational next turn.

I think you are also being overly pessimistic about their survival chances against shooting. Lets assume 15 Piranhas are facing Marine army with 10 Heavy Bolters and 8 Lascannons (I know diddly about marine builds, but I assume this is more than usual). Lets run some Mathhammer:

-Piranhas move flat out first turn.
-10 Heavy bolters shoot 30 times at BS4, producing 20 hits. They need 6+ to glance from the front, but lets assume some get side armour shots. Lets be generous and give 3 penetrating and 3 glancing hits. But Piranhas get 4+ save from moving flat out, so HB's destroy or otherwise neutralize only 3 Piranhas.
-8 Lascannons open up. We assume they get 6 hits, and also assume that all at least glance and subsesquently destroy/neutralize the vehicle. Again, Tau side gets cover saves, resulting to 3 dead Piranhas.
-In next turn, Marines will be facing at least nine BS4 meltagun shots. I think it is safe to assume they will destroy or at very least stun four, perhaps five vehicles. Piranhas came with 30 Gun Drones, if they were not pinned when their Piranhas were destroyed, they can shoot up infantry. So though this is hardly game over for Marines, and there surely are builds which would make short work of Piranhas, I think it is easy to see why Piranha Swarm could give problems for certain type of Mechanized lists.

I wonder how Piranha swarm would scale to 1850 points, where you could include some other stuff besides Piranhas and required units as well?

Ragewind wrote:I took a look at a Tau Codex and this is what it seems he had

Fast Attack:
P-Squad x5 w/ Target Lock, Flechette Dischargers, Fusion Gun (400)
P-Squad x5 w/ Target Lock, Flechette Dischargers, Fusion Gun (400)
P-Squad x5 w/ Target Lock, Flechette Dischargers, Fusion Gun (400)

Troops:
1+ Mandatory FW min size squad = 60 *** (Possibly had this size squad w/ no devilfish)
Kroot x10 = 70
Kroot x10 = 70

HQ:
A Suit Commander costing 104 points or less

Total 1500 or so

Actually.. this looks pretty good.

Perhaps swap some fusion guns (and some other bits) for disruption pods, all round, for game-long 4+ cover saves (from fire past 12") aswell as cover-saves you get from flat-out movement. The burst cannons wouldnt hurt anyways & work v.well with the pulse carbine gun drones. With 2x5 fusion guns & probably a fusion suicide command, that should work fine. & lets not forget charging kroot can take down most leman russes!

But those vehicles NOM small arms fire, should really always require 6's to hit (also fleshette = bad. So either the 6+ to-hit will penalise small strong elite HtH units like termies or the fact that you get wounded on 4's before rolling to hit will really penalise horde style troops, whom will swing significantly less, which will then in turn mean the 6+ to-hit will be hard to get past!)

As for heavy anti-armor fire.. well, near-constant 4+ saves, vehicle squadren rules on -big- squadrens & the sheer number of units. I mean, 15 vehiles @ 1500pts & only say.. 7KP's! Although I think this does start spawning KP's when the gun drones get let loose when thier vehicles get destroyed.

It also has a damn good amount of shooting, TL-BS2 basically = BS3, so between all those vehicle mounted gun drones will be putting out pinning pulse carbine shots (2per vehicle, 10shots per group) and lets not forget, str5 base weapons here. Fusion guns, when they start fielding 5 per squad, speak for themselves.

Kroot can avoid lots & lots. A Command with a positional rely (and maybe one suit-based suicide squad) will actually help prevent the kroot arriving early - On turns 2 or 3, the commander forces his one suit squad (he is already on the field.. with some missile pods or somthing) to come in on a 2+ but this also prevents any other reserve unit arriving. Hence kroot can avoid coming on themselves till later turns, all together. Then coming in via outflank = mobility on objectives. The pos-rely command & a deep-strike squad will probably require slightly higher point games (or less pirhannas).

In squadron, Crew Stunned becomes Shaken.

Correct, I had forgotten this rule. Even so, you're losing the model on Immobilized, which makes Glances a threat to destroy.

In next turn, Marines will be facing at least nine BS4 meltagun shots. I think it is safe to assume they will destroy or at very least stun four, perhaps five vehicles.

How are they going to do that? Marines only deal in single vehicles, no squadrons, so the most they're going to be doing is killing 3 vehicles per turn. It's quite likely each squadron kills one, but, still, only three.

And that assume there are vehicles to kill. Infantry heavy Marines will sit in cover and laugh. And that also assumes there are vehicles WORTH killing. Pop a 50 point Rhino. Who cares? Now you're in range to get blown away, and probably giving side shots to Bolters, which is a very real threat when you're so close, taking Rapid Fire.

Also, please note that in your example, you're talking about 6 Piranhas dying per turn. At that pace, even if it drops off a bit, they're all dead by turn 3. Yikes, right?

I think it is easy to see why Piranha Swarm could give problems for certain type of Mechanized lists.

Certainly, that's why I mentioned rocks paper scissors in my post, because this is a list that will cause major problems for certain lists, and get totally slaughtered by others.

Anything with lots of infantry that get 4+ saves or better will crush this list. Anything with lots of S6+ shooting will have no trouble with this list.

Anything with lots of AV14 tanks, or using small numbers of very expensive infantry (Terminators), will have big trouble with this list.

For me, the memory that sticks out is watching one of my Dakkafexes smoke a 2 Piranhas unit in a single turn. I realize it's totally anecdotal, but I clearly recall how inevitable it seemed when the actual dice were rolled. 6 S6 hits on AV 10? Bad news every time.

Phryxis wrote:Lotsa stuff

First off, those lascannons will get 3.3 hits in after cover saves. Out of those 3.3, 2-3 will penetrate-glance & two will probably die.

That is 8 lascannons. Really? Which army?

Going on from that, 10 h.bolters? Really, in additional to 8 lascannons? What kinda SM armies are we talking about here.

If this SM army is infantry heavy.. then sure, sit your marines in cover, its what they do best im sure. Each pirhanna sqaud can point at a marine squad & cause amount two wounds, if the squad is in cover. More it it isnt. Probably more like 3-4. Just saying, thats what they can do. A cheaper burst-cannon squad actually does 2.8 wounds reguardless of cover.

Rapid fire? I say 18" burst cannons & pulse carbines. Oh & you will fail one or two pinning tests of the course of a game, enjoy.

Dakkafex? 8 str 6 shots. Averages out at 1 glance/pen (either or) per go of firing. Not much. Doesnt really make the squad flinch that much (squadren rules, etc), especially concidering that the fex could well die next turn.

I thinking this swarm could benefit from three skyrays w/ burst cannons for some marker lights plus more vehicle spam to distract the enemy @ 135 a peice that doesn't even hit 2k, not bad at all.

Jack

Adding on to the above posts aboout math hammer, it is incorrect to assume "some will be side shots" the vehicle squad rule state you take the armor value from the closest facing member. So if the closest piranha is showing its front armor to the enemy all of their shots will be against AV 11.

Ragewind wrote:Adding on to the above posts aboout math hammer, it is incorrect to assume "some will be side shots" the vehicle squad rule state you take the armor value from the closest facing member. So if the closest piranha is showing its front armor to the enemy all of their shots will be against AV 11.

But I think that post was simply being over-generous, to prove a point. Even with over-generous side-armor & far-too-many heavy weapons...

Im thinking, as it stands, you'd need 3 full attack bike squadrens & 3 predator annhilators @ 855pts, which would net you just over the stated amount of weaponary. Infanty heavy lists doing that... easily 1000pts & thats probably not enough.

... the damage caused wasnt amazing.

Another benifit to having a whole 5-strong vehicle squadren is that you can array your vehicles so that they basically cover front armor 11 in the front full semi-circle, giving no LOS to side armor from a 180 degree front arc direction.

That is 8 lascannons. Really? Which army?

I didn't propose that list, Backfire did. But it's no huge stretch. How about 3 in a Dev Squad, 3 in Tacticals, one T-L on a Razorback, and one T-L on a Predator? It's not that hard to have that many, if that's what you want to do.

Dakkafex? 8 str 6 shots. Averages out at 1 glance/pen (either or) per go of firing.

No... Dakkafex gets 6 hits on average, and even against AV11, 1 in 3 of those will get a result. Against AV10, even better. So, against AV11, you're looking at a Glance and a Pen roughly speaking.

And, something everyone seems to be trying to forget: Piranhas are Open-Topped.

Rapid fire? I say 18" burst cannons & pulse carbines. Oh & you will fail one or two pinning tests of the course of a game, enjoy.

One second they've all got Fusion Blasters, next they've got Burst Cannons... Which is it?

Regardless, as I said previously, Burst Cannons and S5AP5 Tau shooting in general, are hugely overrated. Pinning is very unlikely, and while you might see it happen from time to time, it's nothing you can plan for, which cuts its utility down a great deal.

Against anybody with 4+ Sv or better, a BS3 Burst Cannon shot is no better than a BS4 Bolter shot.

Think about that... For 65 points, you get Targetting Array, Burst Cannon and two Drones. Ok, that's 5 shots, 18" range, for 65 points. From 18-24" a Marine is more effective. But even inside 18", which is more cost effective?

Mathhammer vs MEqs at 12"...

Piranha:
BS4 Burst Cannon: 3 shots, 2 hits, 1.33 wounds = .44 Dead
BS2 Drones: 2 shots, 1.11 hits, .74 wounds = .25 Dead (and a very minimal chance of Pinning)
Total = .69 Dead
Per point = .69 / 65 = .0106

Marine:
BS4 Bolter: 2 shots, 1.33 hits, .67 wounds = .22 Dead
Per point = .22 / 15 = .0148

Now, I realize this isn't all situations, all the time, ironclad fact. I'm just saying, at 12", a Marine is nearly 50% more effective in shooting, point for point, than a Burst Cannon Piranha.

All of this is just another exercise to demonstrate how incredibly overrated Tau S5AP5 shooting is. And I say this as somebody who plays Tau, not some Marine fanboi.

Here's the thing... Building a list does often come down to finding the best unit, and spamming lots of it. Are Piranhas really that broken of a unit you can base a list around them? Are they even the best unit in the Tau list? I don't think so.

This is just a very odd, extreme list. Like any such list, it's going to really pose problems for some other lists. But, for most, it's just not survivable enough to win games. I mean, come on... Even if we just assume that it's SUPER tough and SUPER shooty, this is a list with almost no Troops in it, and those that are there in numbers are extremely fragile. Any objective based mission, you're playing for a draw at best. Is that a good starting point for a power list?

it is incorrect to assume "some will be side shots"

When there are five, sure, but by the time they get there, there won't be five. And before too long, there won't even be three. At that point, they need to be so close to work, they're getting enveloped, and starting to get shot in AV10.

Yet another reason these squads aren't all they're cracked up to be, is that they're losing power incrementally with each model lost. They lose 20% of their firepower, and they also become more vulnerable to rear shots. By comparison, Marines are giving up their cheapest, weakest models first, keeping Mult-Meltas, Lascannons and Plasmaguns in the game, and so sustaining wounds with a comparitively lesser loss of efficiency. Hell, a Dakkafex can lose 3 wounds with no loss of firepower.

I think Skyrays would actually match this army very well. As you would be able to deny cover saves to vehicles and units with the marker lights.

Phryxis wrote:
How are they going to do that? Marines only deal in single vehicles, no squadrons, so the most they're going to be doing is killing 3 vehicles per turn. It's quite likely each squadron kills one, but, still, only three.

I am assuming that Target lock works as OP believes, and common sense would dictate. Unfortunately, GW did sloppy job with the Codex and it is not clear how Flechettes and Target locks work with Piranha squadrons...

Phryxis wrote:
And that assume there are vehicles to kill. Infantry heavy Marines will sit in cover and laugh. And that also assumes there are vehicles WORTH killing. Pop a 50 point Rhino. Who cares?

I care, since I just went 1 Kill point up Good luck trying to get a KP by shooting up Piranhas. Or, the Marines just lost their transport which they needed to travel to my objective, held by Fire Warriors. Opening post described which appeared to be a massacre, but usually you would focuse to mission objectives.

But sure, if it is a poor matchup for the Piranhas, they will lose. OTOH, I can lose to poor matchup with a regular, balanced Tau list as well. At Warseer, some guy said he had ran 15 Piranha list on 2000 point level and it had apparently done OK, although he described it more akin to "fun army".

Phryxis wrote:
Also, please note that in your example, you're talking about 6 Piranhas dying per turn. At that pace, even if it drops off a bit, they're all dead by turn 3. Yikes, right?

As said, my example was being overly generous. There probably aren't that many 1500 pts lists which could reliably shoot down 6 Piranhas per turn. Incidentally, last Marine army I played had just seven heavy weapons capable of destroying AV11 frontally.

What's interesting is that since the Pirahnas are fast open topped skimmers then the gun drones can disembark and fire then assault. Which is actually not bad for tying up units that are not H t H dedicated; they also have a decent chance of doing some mild damage. 10 STR5 Shots at BS 3 basically ; then assaulting with 20 attacks at WS2 and ST3 isn't terrible not great but not terrible. They would be actually pretty decent in assault against guardians; Dark Eldar Warriors ; Imperial Guard ; that sort of thing.

As said, my example was being overly generous.

I agree, it was overly generous, but still within the realm of possibility. We're talking 6 Piranha per turn being overly generous... And that results in them being wiped out by turn 3. So if we're not so overly generous, say only HALF that many die per turn, it's still a Piranha Free Zone by end of turn 5.

It'd be one thing if you were overly generous and the Piranha STILL are zipping around by turn 6 or 7. Then I'd have to admit, "wow, even when he stacks the deck against them, they can still survive." That's far from the case here.

Open topped AV11/10. Incredibly vulnerable.

Here's another way to look at it:

A Razorback with T-L H-Bolters is 40 points. It's got a much superior gun to the Piranha, superior BS, superior armor, and it's not open topped. AND it's got real transport capacity. The Piranha is much faster.

Land Speeders can bring TWO Multi-Meltas for 80 points, pretty comparable in cost to the wargear-creep on these Piranhas.

Are either of these vehicles any worse of a value than the Piranha? I'd say not. In fact, I'd say they're both a better value. So why would one build an entire list around something that's a mediocre value?

The way this trick works is to use BROKEN units to core the list. Lash. Elite Fexes. Wound allocation tricks and Nobs. Hydra Flak Tanks. Etc.

Not just a mediocre unit with great speed.

Its a pretty broken list when used in large numbers as it can continually get 4+ cover save and basically gives you a Free Fast Attack Option.

3 Full Pirahna Squads = 3 Fast Attack

3 10 man Drone Squads = 3 Fast Attack

That's the point of it.


Your also not counting that Gun Drones at minimum are 10 points a piece so it actually is a good deal.

Phryxis wrote:

I agree, it was overly generous, but still within the realm of possibility. We're talking 6 Piranha per turn being overly generous... And that results in them being wiped out by turn 3. So if we're not so overly generous, say only HALF that many die per turn, it's still a Piranha Free Zone by end of turn 5.

It'd be one thing if you were overly generous and the Piranha STILL are zipping around by turn 6 or 7. Then I'd have to admit, "wow, even when he stacks the deck against them, they can still survive." That's far from the case here.

Open topped AV11/10. Incredibly vulnerable.

Again, you are overplaying "incredibly vulnerable" part. How many lascannon shots it will take to destroy a Piranha in squadron if it gets a cover save? One would think that it would be trivial since lascannon will glance at 2+ and Piranha is open-topped. But surprise, the chance for BS4 lascannon to destroy Piranha is only around 18.5%. So you will need at least FIVE lascannons to ensure destruction of ONE Piranha. It's not so killy, boss.

Sure, in next turn they will likely not get cover saves. But you have also probably lost several assets you have used to kill Piranhas. Indeed that is what happened in example game described in the opening post. Now we perhaps shouldn't read too much to it, maybe Guard player had a poor dice day, or perhaps they were not playing with legal lists. But the result described is at least within realms of plausibility.

Phryxis wrote:
Here's another way to look at it:

A Razorback with T-L H-Bolters is 40 points.

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. Razorback and Piranha are completely different type of units, designed to perform completely different missions. I might just as well state that Razorback sucks, because it cannot carry Gun Drones, is not a skimmer and doesn't come in squadrons.

Phryxis wrote:
Land Speeders can bring TWO Multi-Meltas for 80 points, pretty comparable in cost to the wargear-creep on these Piranhas.

Now you're on to something, indeed I agree that in isolation, Land Speeder is generally better unit than Piranha. However, Piranha has one thing going for it, squadron size: 3 for Land Speeder, 5 for Piranha. Quantity matters...single Nob Biker, not so scary. But when there is eight...

Besides, it's not like I am claiming that Piranha Swarm is going to be next Twin Lash. I'm just saying that I'm open to possibility that it might work in suitable environment. At very least, whatever happens, games are quick...

Hollismason wrote:Its a pretty broken list when used in large numbers as it can continually get 4+ cover save and basically gives you a Free Fast Attack Option.

3 Full Pirahna Squads = 3 Fast Attack

3 10 man Drone Squads = 3 Fast Attack

That's the point of it.


Your also not counting that Gun Drones at minimum are 10 points a piece so it actually is a good deal.

If it matters to the Tau players Gun Drone squads normally can only go up to 9 models. Your actually getting a extra drone for a sexy LD 10 squad.

10 Pirahnas w/ goodies 800 points.
which includes 20 gun drones.

First off that is 4 kill points.

If divided equally it comes out to 26.6 points per model.


Thats really fething point efficient.

You could discount what the gun drones cost and say okay gun drones are 10 points per model so if I bought 20 seperately that would be 200 points and subtract that 200 so now you are paying only 60 points for a model w/ Fusion blaster; disruption; target array; whatever else.



Thats the whole point they become incredibly cost efficient in large numbers.

How many lascannon shots it will take to destroy a Piranha in squadron if it gets a cover save?

For moving Flat Out? Move Flat Out and you can't shoot. 100% less shooting, 50% less vulnerable.

Let's be clear here... This is going to protect them some on turn 1 as they try to get in to shoot. After that, no more.

Also, let's not obsess over the Lascannon. There are a lot of other weapons in the world that can shoot down Piranhas better. For example, Autocannons, Rapid-Fire Plasma, Assault Cannons, Meltas, etc. etc.

So you will need at least FIVE lascannons to ensure destruction of ONE Piranha. It's not so killy, boss.

You're making an error in your probabilities here. Shooting five Lascannons doesn't ensure killing anything. Shooting a thousand doesn't ensure anything. It's all about the binomial distribution at this point. Using your 18.5% number, what happens with 5 shots?

Kills: Odds
0: 0.360
1: 0.408
2: 0.185
3: 0.042
4: 0.005
5: 0.000

So, with 5 shots, you kill TWO Piranhas 18.5% of the time, one Piranha 40.8% of the time, and none 36% of the time. The odds of killing 3+ is pretty limited.

Sure, in next turn they will likely not get cover saves. But you have also probably lost several assets you have used to kill Piranhas.

No? Who has first turn? Tau every time? Even if they do, the other guy gets a turn of shooting before they kill anything. Turn 1 they go Flat out and Shoot nothing.

If they don't get first turn, you better hope there's enough terrain to hide your 15 Piranhas, cause otherwise they're eating fire with no 4+ save.

It can very easily go very badly for them.

But, let's assume the best for them. They get first turn, and go Flat Out. Because they're getting a 4+ save, they're probably not losing big numbers... But let's keep things simple and look at just Lascannons. If you're trying to field nothing but Lascannons in a 1500 point Marines list, you can easily get 12 in there.

What's the most likely outcome of 12 shots at Flat Out Piranhas? Killing 2 (29%)... And then a 91% chance to kill at least one, and a 22% chance to kill 3. The most likely range is 2-4.

And all of this is ignoring Weapon Destroyed and Crew Shaken results...

Now, let's assume they're in position, they shoot down 2 Lascannons (which is VERY generous if the Marines are infantry heavy, and in cover). Now it's 10 Lascannons shooting back, and now the odds of destruction go from 18.5% to 37%. Now look at the distribution...

Kills: Odds of at least this many (Odds of exactly this many)
1: 0.990 (0.058)
2: 0.932 (0.153)
3: 0.779 (0.239)
4: 0.540 (0.246)
5: 0.294 (0.173)
6: 0.121 (0.085)

Most of the time, 4 are dying. The odds of killing at least 4 is 54%. Killing 2 in the first round, 4 in the second, say 3 in the 3rd and 4th, he's going into the 5th round with 3 Piranhas.

FWIW, let's also consider a Marine list:

Tac Squad, Lascannon, Plasma Gun: 190
Razorback, Lascannon, T-L Plasma Gun: 75
= 265
x5 = 1325

Buy an HQ to fill it out. That's 10 Lascannons, 5 Plasma Guns and 5 T-L Plasma Guns.

A Rapid-Firing Plasma Gun is better at killing Piranhas than a Lascannon inside 12". So, this list is essentially 20 weapons that are all Lascannon level, or better, for killing Piranhas. For fun, let's see what 20 Lascannon shots do to Piranhas with no cover save... To summarize, they have a 47.3% chance to kill 8 or more Piranha in a SINGLE TURN. An 81% chance to kill 6.

Good luck, boss.

Your math doesn't seem to take into account that Pirahnas can get first turn cover saves w/ Disruption fields. You also seem to completely ignore that Pirahnas can move forward and Drones can disembark which add to their fire capability as drones have assault weapons which means they most certainly can disembark; fire ; assault if needed.

You have an effective range with the meltas of 24 due to movement.

Pirahnas can move 12 ; Disembark Drones 2 inches ; Drones have an 18 inch range BS2 Twinlinked Assault STR5 pinning weapon, Oh and there are 30 of them.


So do 12 lascannons firing at 15 pirahnas with 4 plus cover saves. You probably lose literally 1. It's really cost efficient. 15 melta weapons is hideous especially when against light armour where it does not need a close range to penetrate.


The point of it all is that a Swarm of 15 Pirhanas is incredibly cost efficient. You can save points if you like by eliminating Target Locks if you please. You can buy 15 pirahnas EASILY for 1000 points; two squads with Meltas and Two Squads w/ Burst Cannons.

Phryxis wrote:
No? Who has first turn? Tau every time? Even if they do, the other guy gets a turn of shooting before they kill anything. Turn 1 they go Flat out and Shoot nothing.

If they don't get first turn, you better hope there's enough terrain to hide your 15 Piranhas, cause otherwise they're eating fire with no 4+ save.

It can very easily go very badly for them.

This is where squadron rules help you. Remember, you can assign the hits to any vehicle in the squadron just as assigning the wounds in an infantry unit. So you don't actually need to have every one of your 15 Piranhas in cover. Just for fun, this is how I'd try out a Piranha Squadron:

1 Piranha with Flechette, Targeting Array and Fusion
1 w/ Flechette, TA, Target lock and Fusion
1 w/ TA, TL and Fusion
1 w/ TA, TL, Fusion and Disruption pod
1 w/ Burst cannon and Disruption pod

=385 points. Two Disruption pods to protect you from random long-range shots and if you don't get first turn. Last one is a sacrificial fish to which first hit is assigned. All the rest have BS4. I don't see more than two FD's necessary, as few fellow players and tournaments are willing accept multiple Flechette hit interpretation of the rules.

Piranha models need to be numbered or otherwise marked, though, otherwise you will lose track of the wargear...

Phryxis wrote:
FWIW, let's also consider a Marine list:

Tac Squad, Lascannon, Plasma Gun: 190
Razorback, Lascannon, T-L Plasma Gun: 75
= 265
x5 = 1325

Buy an HQ to fill it out. That's 10 Lascannons, 5 Plasma Guns and 5 T-L Plasma Guns.

A Rapid-Firing Plasma Gun is better at killing Piranhas than a Lascannon inside 12". So, this list is essentially 20 weapons that are all Lascannon level, or better, for killing Piranhas. For fun, let's see what 20 Lascannon shots do to Piranhas with no cover save... To summarize, they have a 47.3% chance to kill 8 or more Piranha in a SINGLE TURN. An 81% chance to kill 6.

Of course, you could tune out the list to beat a Piranha swarm. But isn't that true to any list, if you have exact knowledge of what opponent is going to bring? One point of list like this is surprise factor: how often you see Piranha at all, let alone 15? Remember also, that it is not always about the killing. As Hollismason said, Piranha Swarm gives essentially six Fast attack units, all useful in contesting objectives.

Actually that brings up a interesting question; would you only need more than 50 percent of your pirahnas with Disruption fields to gain a 4+ cover save to all models in the squadron?

Looks like you could save some points on that side of things as well which increases over all effieciency of the unit.


Let's say it does work

Pirahnas w/ Fusion Blaster; Target ; Disruption 75

Pirahnas w/ Fusion Blaster; Target Disruption 75

Pirahnas w/ Fusion Blaster ; Target; disruption 75

Pirahnas w/ Fusion Blaster; Target Lock; Targeter 75

Pirahnas w/ Fusion Blaster Target Lock Targeter 75

Comes out to 375 which isnt to bad honestly.


A just balls to the wall antinfantry which would be

Pirahnas w/ Burst Cannon ; targeter ; Disruption x 3 = 340

This has a total of 15 + 10 or 25 STR 5 shots at Ballistic 4 ( twinlink gun drone) 10 of which pin.


Next squad would be same as above.


So 375 + 375 + 340

Comes out to 1090 which leave pretty good room for troops ; Kroot and even a broad side or two.


so what do you get for 1090;

PPM = 24.222

Discounting the drones you get ;

PPM for the Pirahnas 52.6666
For Ballistic 4 with 4 + invulnerable thats pretty damn good.


The above list has

10 MeltaGuns @ BS 4

and

30 STR 5 AP 5 @ Balistic 4 Equivalent

then 15 Ballistic 5.


Oh and it all can move 12 inches a turn and fire.

Hollismason wrote:
so what do you get for 1090;

PPM = 24.222

Discounting the drones you get ;

PPM for the Pirahnas 52.6666
For Ballistic 4 with 4 + invulnerable thats pretty damn good.

I completely agree, the real comparison for units of piranhas is things like Terminators, Obliterators and other expensive elites in the 50+ppm range.

In fact obliterators are a wonderful comparison (to the benefit of the swarm) since at 75ppm they're lessmanuverable and less tough (arguably).

Jack

I think people aren't wowed by it till theyve toyed with it but I've played it and it actually works incredibly well.


Here are some just basic advantages and neat tricks you can do with this.

1. If you place your gun drones within the Pirahna squad itself so that five or more are behind them then they get a cover save. Kind of fun. You shoot the Pirahnas which have a 4+ or you shoot the Gun Drones which have a 5+.

2. Put 20 to 30 models in your opponents deployment zone on turn 1. Yeah thats kind of bad ass. Move forward; run , Assault, 12 + 2 inch Disembark + d6 + 6 for assault all of which ignores terrain at minimum you've put swarmed your oppenents deploymet. This is fun against Mech surrounding transports with drones and then taking away your oppenents cover save with marker lights and blowing it up with Tau Rails or Meltas.


3. Pirahnas are open topped fast skimmers. Which means you most certainly can move 12 ; disembark ; assault.

4. Annoy the gak out Nobz or pin any nonfearless immune unit. Shoot Meltas; force test ; force pinning with Drone Fire with Reduction in leadership.

5. Perfect Gun line everything behind the Pirahnas and Drones is going to get a cover save. You can take away cover saves that your enemy would get with marker lights.

Hollismason wrote:
1. If you place your gun drones within the Pirahna squad itself so that five or more are behind them then they get a cover save. Kind of fun. You shoot the Pirahnas which have a 4+ or you shoot the Gun Drones which have a 5+.

disembark all your gun drones infront of your piranha's so you aren't shooting through your own units giving your targets a cover save. Then shoot at will. Then on assault phase move your gun drones behind your piranha's giving them a 4+ cover save for having units infront of them...

Your math doesn't seem to take into account that Pirahnas can get first turn cover saves w/ Disruption fields.

Sure, but this is yet more points, and spent on something that isn't as useful to a close range fighter.

You also seem to completely ignore

Yes, it's called a thought experiment. I'm not running Mathhammer numbers to show exactly what MUST happen every time. Instead, I run it to show the basics of the situation. The numbers show that the Piranhas are indeed quite fragile.

That doesn't mean that they can't be used with cunning tactics that mitigate their fragility... It just means that they ARE fragile, and any suggestion they're not is mistaken.

But, if you want to talk tactics, here's one: Combat Squads, screen the shooters with the non-shooters, make it hard for Drones to lock up the wrong guys in combat.

Also, bear in mind that if you're locking squads in combat, you're hiding them from the shooting of your Piranhas, and turning your list into a Drone CC army. Drones are a very, VERY poor value in CC.

15 melta weapons is hideous especially when against light armour where it does not need a close range to penetrate.

Meltas are great against vehicles. They're considerably more mediocre against infantry in cover.

The point of it all is that a Swarm of 15 Pirhanas is incredibly cost efficient.

This isn't helpful. Any "broken" unit is, by definition, cost efficient. The fact that you think they're great tells me you think they're cost efficient. Unfortunately I don't agree, and I've given my reasons as to why.

two squads with Meltas and Two Squads w/ Burst Cannons.

Four squads out of 3 Fast Attack choices?

This is where squadron rules help you.

Absolutely, you can hide 15 Piranhas, and you can use the rules to make that job easier. I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying it's something you'll have to worry about. Sometimes it might not be possible, but almost always, you're going to have to make compromises.

For example, in my Sisters list, I've got 7 Rhino chassis on the table Turn 1. It's very hard to put all of them in cover and still get them all up close. You're often forced to put them places you'd rather not.

So, even with a big 24" move, you might still be out of the 12" range you need to do something with a Fusion Blaster in turn 2. That means another round of getting shot, 4+ save or not, without being able to shoot back.

I'm not trying to tell you that you're going to be in the open, dying, every game. I'm just trying to point out that assuming the 4+ save is assuming the best, not assuming the baseline.

Of course, you could tune out the list to beat a Piranha swarm.

Sure, but that wasn't really my goal with that list. I was simply trying to buy a very formulaic Marines list. Remember the days of 6 man Las/Plas? The list I chose is just the 5e version. Why would I put so many Razorbacks in a list meant to shrug off Meltas?

As Hollismason said, Piranha Swarm gives essentially six Fast attack units, all useful in contesting objectives.

See, this isn't actually a good thing. Who cares if you get 6 F/A choices? They're not troops choices, so at that point they're nothing more than squads. Are you filling up the Force Org chart? No... So just take whatever units you want. Troops are the most useful to objectives, all others are equal.

Move forward; run , Assault, 12 + 2 inch Disembark + d6 + 6 for assault

What?

Here is the point of it it is incredibly cost efficient. It increases model count and is incredibly mobile. It has the ability to deny mobility to your opponent. The main problem I see with Tau is that they dont realize that the army is actually a little difficult to play. Things have to work together.

Drones are jetpack units they can always get the six inch move even if they do not assault.


As far as I can tell Drones mounted on Pirahnas are the furthest you can move a unit. That I know of other than wyches. move 12 inches with Pirahnas Disembark 2 inches ; then add another D6 for being able to run; then add 6 for the jetpack move. For a move of 21 to 26 inches across the board.


As for the 3 full squads = 6 Squads yeah it is actually incredibly useful as you can send drones around to harrass and contest objectives and you use your other squads to claim them. Fusion Guns work well against most infantry as you can marker light squads to deny cover. Its why Skyrays work well with the armour with the 2 marker lights. or just take 2 full squads of pirahnas and a Pathfinder squad.

Phryxis wrote:
Sure, but this is yet more points, and spent on something that isn't as useful to a close range fighter.

It's not actually that bad, depending on how you interprete the rules, you will only need 2 or 3 pods per squadron.

For example, in my Sisters list, I've got 7 Rhino chassis on the table Turn 1. It's very hard to put all of them in cover and still get them all up close. You're often forced to put them places you'd rather not.

Hmm, why are you using so many Rhinoes if you think AV11 is so vulnerable?

Sure, but that wasn't really my goal with that list. I was simply trying to buy a very formulaic Marines list. Remember the days of 6 man Las/Plas? The list I chose is just the 5e version. Why would I put so many Razorbacks in a list meant to shrug off Meltas?

I dunno, to be sitting ducks to my 10-Missile pod Tau list...? Really, I admit I don't know lot about Marine lists, but I don't think that list is all that competive overall. If I wanted to pick a (relatively) commonplace list which I think would destroy Piranha Swarm, I'd probably think Nidzilla. But that is all guesswork, as I've never actually played either Piranha swarm or Nidzilla.

See, this isn't actually a good thing. Who cares if you get 6 F/A choices? They're not troops choices, so at that point they're nothing more than squads. Are you filling up the Force Org chart? No... So just take whatever units you want. Troops are the most useful to objectives, all others are equal.

Point is actually "Fast" part. Drone squadron can move 12" + d6 max in one turn...Piranhas can move 24"...a troop can move just 6"+d6". Sure, it would be great if you could contest or capture enemy objectives with your troops...but Tau troops can't really do it.

Another point are Kill points (which is usually a major weakness for Tau). A Piranha squadron is just one Kill point, and with 5 vehicles, not that easy to finish off. You can kill 12 Piranhas, and leave remaining three weaponless by end of game, and still get zero kill points. If Piranhas have killed just one Rhino in return, it's a victory for Tau. Seriously, I don't know how the game with Piranha swarm would play in reality when you start considering game objectives, as I have never played a list like that....but some possibilities are intriguing.

Piranha swarm... interesting idea. Good to see Tau players trying new things. Vespids sure aren't the answer.

One thing keeps bugging me though, and my Tau codex is out of reach... Are you guys sure that 15 Piranha with "passenger" drones get to "disembark" them into 3 squads of 10?

It seems more likely that you will end up with 15 squads of 2 drones each.

Example. On turn 1 you loose a Piranha but emergency disembark its 2 drones in your deployment zone. On turn 2 your 4 remaining Piranhas are now in the opponents side of the board and you loose a another one causing another emergency disembarkment. The drone squads could now be more than 24" apart from each other but you are saying they are the same squad?

Another arguement... a single squad cannot "ride" in multiple transports. Because of this alone I think you have 1 squadron of 5 Piranhas, and 5 squads of 2 drones each as passengers.

That's a ton of kill points.

Wildstorm wrote:
One thing keeps bugging me though, and my Tau codex is out of reach... Are you guys sure that 15 Piranha with "passenger" drones get to "disembark" them into 3 squads of 10?

It seems more likely that you will end up with 15 squads of 2 drones each.

Example. On turn 1 you loose a Piranha but emergency disembark its 2 drones in your deployment zone. On turn 2 your 4 remaining Piranhas are now in the opponents side of the board and you loose a another one causing another emergency disembarkment. The drone squads could now be more than 24" apart from each other but you are saying they are the same squad?

Of all unclear Piranha rules, that's one thing which actually has been FAQqed and is absolutely clear. All of the squadron's drones have to form a single unit when they disembark. If even one of them disembarks (for whatever reason, say mother Piranha is destroyed) then all have to do so. And they can disembark wherever within 2" of the Piranha unit. Drones do not have access points, so they can disembark from any point of the vehicle or squadron.

Disclaimer; I'm not a Tau player.

After looking at the Piranha's capabilities and their points cost, they seem like a really good unit.

3 squads of 10 drones and 15 light vehicles with specialty weapons (Fusion for tanks, etc...) that can be in your opponents deployment zone AND shooting by turn two is an extremely valuble asset.