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The other day while visiting another city's game store (For Memorial Day Weekend), I saw a Tau player run a interesting army. He was fighting against a new codex Imperial guard player who was running a large amounts of Chimera's with 3 Leman Russes. The Tau player, interestingly enough, was running somewhere in the neighborhood of 18 Piranhas. Most had Fusion Blasters (that I could see) although some also Had Burst Cannons. He had some Kroot and I didn't notice a HQ on the table while I watched. The Tau player moved 24 inches towards the imperial guard player getting right up in his face restricting his movement. During the guards player's turn he killed 5 of the skimmers, and on the following players turn he zapped all of the Russes, and a good 6 Chimeras.
The kroot ran up and charged a squad of guardsmen forced out of their chimera killing them, on the guard players turn he took out 3 more with some Meltas and Multi-Laser Fire, and killed some kroot.Then the Tau player killed the remaining Chimeras and started to clean up. I was very interested, as the Imperial Guard player was still in his deployment zone when the game ended and was wondering if anyone else has seen this type of "Tau Swarm" before. Oh and the Guard player did assault one of the Squads of Piranhas (he keep saying the Meltabombs would kill some) but promptly got shredded by Flechette Dischargers. I thought the idea was very neat, any thoughts on what kind of army would do best against this?

From what I know of the Tau Codex he had 9 KP on the table, could form 3 units of 12 Gun Drones for some Nice Infantry killing power, has the option to Infiltrate or Outflank the Kroot, I didn't notice a Ethereal or a Suit Commander so its entirely possible he kept it in reserve and it never came in.

Blighter that is unreasonably brutal.

I want to think Nurgle Marines (not mech) and Nurgle Daemons would drag this list down. It loses a lot of its sting when it goes up against T5 3+ (or 5++) FnP bodies. The only concern is, actually killing all of those in a timey manner. Daemons I don't know well enough, but I suppose you can drag it down in melee, but a competitive Chaos player (ie Dual Lash, though I hate to say it) will have enough meltaguns to deal with that after about 3 turns. This list is all shock and awe, and it works, but if it hits a hard bulwark it might table itself.

That IS awesome! I think he'd have a tougher time against anything with 3+ saves, though. The Flechette Dischargers loose a lot of effectiveness against Marines, while they were practically MADE for killing Guard and Orks.

You need to get this guy to post his list and tactica up here. Tau players could really use the confidence boost!

Its a fun army but those guys also cost you arround 13-1500 points for the 18 skimmers depending on gear and they cannot target separate units. So you only get to fire on three targets per turn.

They are great at killing units of russes and hellhound variants but not so good at troops.
They actually do wonders against marines as only heavy weapons can take them down unless you get behind them. Not so good against mobile shooting armies though.

cypher wrote:Its a fun army but those guys also cost you arround 13-1500 points for the 18 skimmers depending on gear and they cannot target separate units. So you only get to fire on three targets per turn.

They are great at killing units of russes and hellhound variants but not so good at troops.
They actually do wonders against marines as only heavy weapons can take them down unless you get behind them. Not so good against mobile shooting armies though.

actually pirhana's can buy target locks if I remember right which means they can shoot at different targets.

I took a look at a Tau Codex and this is what it seems he had

Fast Attack:
P-Squad x5 w/ Target Lock, Flechette Dischargers, Fusion Gun (400)
P-Squad x5 w/ Target Lock, Flechette Dischargers, Fusion Gun (400)
P-Squad x5 w/ Target Lock, Flechette Dischargers, Fusion Gun (400)

Troops:
1+ Mandatory FW min size squad = 60 *** (Possibly had this size squad w/ no devilfish)
Kroot x10 = 70
Kroot x10 = 70

HQ:
A Suit Commander costing 104 points or less

Total 1500 or so

That is assuming the Burst Cannons I saw on the Skimmers were actually Fusion Guns

So he could've easily run this in a 1500 point game, go higher and you can have much more fun I suppose, I wonder how this would do against some of the more competitive armies.

EDIT: He also gets 3 10 bot strong Gun Drone squads, via the skimmers. Giving him 60 twin-linked Str 5 Ap 5, that is pinning per turn.

Oh yeah, I know all about Tau firepower. I've never even HEARD of a Pirahna horde before. With 20 Kroot to play their usual shenanigans midfield and a tiny FW unit to hide on home objectives, this is a cool variant on Tau Mech. Niche, perhaps, but I can see where he's coming from if he keeps seeing Russ squadrons at his local game tables.

I gotta tell my buddy about this, maybe I can get him to trot out the Fish'Eads again for a bit.

Y'know, of all the meta-game altering power creep posts I see, I am most disappointed when people just give up on an army altogether. I'm always pleased with diversity in gaming, and any reason to re-look at an old codex is welcome in my book.

This...is...gross.... I dont want to fight that, and for those who think that would have traouble with MEQ, 5 fusion shots per squad, 60 strength 5 shots, yikes, for small numbers armies like lash, I think lash would actually have a HUGE problem with this as the oblits or better yet, DP/ sorc would be dead in one turn of shooting (10 fusions on DP, 5 on the sorc, YIKES) after that, lash armies lose a TON of their mobility against piranas in those numbers, as rhino Plage marines could only holdout so long against that kind of bombardment. He could either avoid the oblits, or just Blitz the hell out of them and wipe them out all at once, standard 6 oblits, 3 groups of 2, not hard when you have 15 fusion guns... This reminds me of the amazing CC Necrons I saw someone use... Nothing like seeing a necron player beat a blood angels player in CC

Ragewind wrote:

EDIT: He also gets 3 10 bot strong Gun Drone squads, via the skimmers. Giving him 60 twin-linked Str 5 Ap 5, that is pinning per turn.

You'd only get 30 twin-linked shots; carbines are only Assault 1, unfortunately. Still a lot of firepower, though.

You also only need 4 target locks per squad, giving you another 15 points to play around with.

Cerine wrote:

Ragewind wrote:

EDIT: He also gets 3 10 bot strong Gun Drone squads, via the skimmers. Giving him 60 twin-linked Str 5 Ap 5, that is pinning per turn.

You'd only get 30 twin-linked shots; carbines are only Assault 1, unfortunately. Still a lot of firepower, though.

You also only need 4 target locks per squad, giving you another 15 points to play around with.

This is true, I keep getting Pulse Rifles and Carbines mixed up.

EDIT:
I have now become extremely interested in how this army would play out, and here is a list I considered that is a bit more points efficient and more killy at the same time.

(HQ)-
Shas'el : Twin-Linked Flamer, Black Sun Filter (59)

(Troops)-
Fire Warrior Squad #1: FW x6 w/ Devil Fish armed w/ Smart Missile System, Disruption Pod, Burst Cannon, Landing Gear (165)

Fire Warrior Squad #2: FW x6 w/ Devil Fish armed w/ Smart Missile System, Disruption Pod, Burst Cannons, Landing Gear (165)

(Fast Attack)-
Piranha-Squad #1: Piranha x5, 4 w/ Target Locks, Dischargers x5, Fusion Gun x5 (370)

Piranha-Squad #2: Piranha x5, 4 w/ Target Locks, Dischargers x5, Fusion Gun x5 (370)

Piranha-Squad #3: Piranha x5, 4 w/ Target Locks, Dischargers x5, Fusion Gun x5 (370)


Total 1499

Keeps with the original idea and keeps your troops better protected while granting you some Warfish to block movement paths and provide some more anti-infantry fire power. Even the HQ (which honestly I have no clue how to equip) continues the anti-infantry role giving some Cover Ignoring attacks in the form of a Twin-Linked Flamer. It provides 2 more KP than the first possible list I provided, but makes it harder for your enemy to secure those KP, the Commander may Deepstike as the need arise. The odd man out is the commander, but you kind of have to take him and he needs to be under 60 points to fit into 1500. Although at higher points values take whatever equipment you like.

Actually, I was looking at the INAT FAQ (TAU.30D.01), and you'd only need to field 1 flechette discharger per squad to have it affect all the assaulters.

Cerine wrote:Actually, I was looking at the INAT FAQ (TAU.30D.01), and you'd only need to field 1 flechette discharger per squad to have it affect all the assaulters.

Well random FAQ's not withstanding, the squad rules state when a unit in a vehicle squadron is assaulted, the entire unit is engaged. Meaning every vehicle that has a discharger gets to pop a shot,

30 orks charge 5 piranhas

The Tau player gets 5 dice per Ork

Resulting in 150 dice thrown at the attacking orks before they get to swing

Ouch

Khornatedemon wrote:

cypher wrote:Its a fun army but those guys also cost you arround 13-1500 points for the 18 skimmers depending on gear and they cannot target separate units. So you only get to fire on three targets per turn.

They are great at killing units of russes and hellhound variants but not so good at troops.
They actually do wonders against marines as only heavy weapons can take them down unless you get behind them. Not so good against mobile shooting armies though.

actually pirhana's can buy target locks if I remember right which means they can shoot at different targets.

That is not how the TL works on Vehicles, the infantry TL does work that way. The Vehicle TL lets you shoot at 2 different targets with one model and since the Piranha has only 1 weapon it is useless after you disengage the Gundrones.

Ragewind wrote:
(HQ)-
Shas'el : Twin-Linked Flamer, Black Sun Filter (59)

Ok. What good is this?

its cheep
Thats about it

Joostuh wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:

cypher wrote:Its a fun army but those guys also cost you arround 13-1500 points for the 18 skimmers depending on gear and they cannot target separate units. So you only get to fire on three targets per turn.

They are great at killing units of russes and hellhound variants but not so good at troops.
They actually do wonders against marines as only heavy weapons can take them down unless you get behind them. Not so good against mobile shooting armies though.

actually pirhana's can buy target locks if I remember right which means they can shoot at different targets.

That is not how the TL works on Vehicles, the infantry TL does work that way. The Vehicle TL lets you shoot at 2 different targets with one model and since the Piranha has only 1 weapon it is useless after you disengage the Gundrones.

I see how it can be read that way, let me do my best to enlighten you.

1) Piranha unit picks a target unit to fire at
2) Measure distance
3) Models within the Piranha unit fire at target

See because we are dealing with a squad that need to nominate a target the Tl will work the same way, the exact text from the Tau book states "Each weapon on the vehicle may fire at a separate enemy unit if desired subject to the LOS rules"

What will happen in a 3 model unit is the following...

Vehicle #1 fires at target
Vehicle #2 designates its Fusion blaster to target a different unit from the one currently engaged
Vehicle #3 designates its Fusion blaster to target another unit

This will happen if you have gun drones or not, since the rule for a TL says "each weapon", meaning every model with a target lock can choose a alternate enemy model to fire at, as long as the vehicle squad has chosen a primary target.

The confusion stems from the fact that the rules for a vehicle target lock were copy/pasted from the first Tau codex before a Piranha squad existed. Back when they only had single vehicles the rule worked exactly as written, only allowing each weapon to fire somewhere else (since it was a single model shooting). However due to the way a vehicle squad works in 5th, the TL will still allow you to split fire as long as you designate a different target for each weapon. (the fusion blaster)

Incidentally I just realized if you have Decoy launchers you can prevent a model in the squad from (hopefully) dying due to a immobile result, fancy that

Ragewind wrote:since the rule for a TL says "each weapon", meaning every model with a target lock can choose a alternate enemy model to fire at, as long as the vehicle squad has chosen a primary target.

But it says "Each weapon on the vehicle...", not "Each weapon in the Unit...". And it's not FAQed (that I know of, at least).

Unfortunoutly, I have to agree with Joostuh, there's no real rule justification for it allowing squadrens to split fire.

Ragewind wrote:

Well random FAQ's not withstanding, the squad rules state when a unit in a vehicle squadron is assaulted, the entire unit is engaged. Meaning every vehicle that has a discharger gets to pop a shot,

30 orks charge 5 piranhas

The Tau player gets 5 dice per Ork

Resulting in 150 dice thrown at the attacking orks before they get to swing

Ouch

This is indeed RAW, but AFAIK, some tournament FAQ's state that only one FD will discharge. It is somewhat laborous to roll 5 wounds to each assaulting 30 Orks, and then saves to them...

Regardless of that, some critique of your list...

-Remember that some of your Piranhas would surely die before they get chance to shoot. So I'd advice leaving one Piranha in each squadron completely without upgrades, at 60 points. Assign first hit to that one...

-On the other hand, Piranha's base BS is only 3. You will need to buy them Targeting arrays.

-5 Flechette Dischargers per Squadron is probably overkill anyway. I think three will suffice.

-For your HQ, I'd advice Missile Pod + TL Flamer combo. Relatively cheap & versatile.

-I would advice taking your Devilfishes in Dumbfish configuration, ie. only Disruption pod. SMS is bit of a waste of points if you don't have Targeting Array & Multitracker on your 'Fish. Or just take one Warfish and use rest of the points to something else.

I'm curious how a positional relay would do with this type of army.

Joostuh wrote:

Ragewind wrote:since the rule for a TL says "each weapon", meaning every model with a target lock can choose a alternate enemy model to fire at, as long as the vehicle squad has chosen a primary target.

But it says "Each weapon on the vehicle...", not "Each weapon in the Unit...". And it's not FAQed (that I know of, at least).

Yes but the unit fires together, which is why it works.

As a example, lets take a single piranha and target a Leman Russ, now that I have declared a main target I can choose to use my Target lock and choose a Chimera nearby. Even though I only have one weapon does not mean I cannot make use of the target lock. Since the squad fires simultaneously at the same target, you can choose a different target for each instance of the target lock.

If they fired one at a time, then as you are saying it cannot be done.

-On the other hand, Piranha's base BS is only 3. You will need to buy them Targeting arrays.

I have thought of this and sometimes I wish I had BS 4, I'll have to do some clever accounting to find the points however.

I'm curious how a positional relay would do with this type of army.

I have no clue, I don't have any experience with that type of army.

Someone did mention I would do well to get rid of the second FW+Fish and bring back the Kroot to take care of units like Lootas (via Infiltrate). This seems like a distinct possibility but I will have to go run a few test games.

Actually I wouldn't take more than 4 it would be cheaper to have this load out.

Pirahhna x4
1: Targeting Array ; Target Lock ; Disruption Field, flechette 85;
1 Targeting Array + Target Lock; Disruption Field
Flechette 85

1 Targeting Array+ Disruption Field ; x2 Seeker Missiles; 90

1 Targeting Array+ Disruption Field l x2 Seeker Missiles 90

Comes out to 360 points

A Fusion Blaster comes to 400 points

So for 1200 or 980 points you get som 12 Pirahnas ; 24 gun Drones and 12 seeker missiles. With 2 Flechhette Blasters then you have 2 chances to wound.

Rush Forward 24 inches with 12 inch Blasters ands Flechettes to protect the unit from assault; Theyll need 6s to hit in combat as well.

Take that same squad and add 80 points to the 360 so now you are at 440 points ,but you now have 24 STR 8 shots that can lay into a unit.


Why Seeker Missiles; Do you know how hilarious hitting a unit in one turn with 12 STR8 Missiles that require no range. Sure you need marker lights but you should have as many of those as you can.

HILARIOUS.

I would go with 2 Targeting Arrays as it effectively splits the squads fire I mean you want to fire 2 at least at one target. This ruins Lash; Okay market light ad nauseum your prince take 1 missile okay take another marker light and another missile oh uh i have 24 m missiles. I didnt realize that Pirahnas can get Seeker Missiles. That gak is hilarious.
So for 1200 points you have 36 STR5 Shots at BS 4 ; 24 STR 5 AP 5 w/ Gun Drones at Ballistic 2; Then 24 yes 24 STR 8 Missiles . Who cares that it is one shot 12 ST8 Shots should kill most Monstrous creatures; Wraithlords ; Avatars; Carnifexs; Demon Princes ; Plague Marine Squads; Blood Thirsters.


That is pretty awesome this is a very viable army. Throw in Devilfishes and you have a Mech Tau that is incredible.

I personally would go the "cheap" route w/

3 squads at 360 which comes out to 980

What are you firing these seeker missles with? You need marker lights to fire seeker missles. You dont' have enough points left to take a HQ, 2 troops and a pathfinder (that you need to fire the seeker missles). Assuming we are using 1500 point armys

Ragewind wrote:Yes but the unit fires together, which is why it works.

As a example, lets take a single piranha and target a Leman Russ, now that I have declared a main target I can choose to use my Target lock and choose a Chimera nearby. Even though I only have one weapon does not mean I cannot make use of the target lock. Since the squad fires simultaneously at the same target, you can choose a different target for each instance of the target lock.

Sorry, but you must have a different codex than I have. Could you quote the part of your codex that says the TL does this.

PG 31 "Each weapon on the vehicle may fire at a separate enemy unit if desired"

The fusion blaster on the piranha is a weapon on the vehicle is it not? Therefor it may fire at a different target if this vehicle has a TL.

edit:spelling

Yes, it may fire at a different target! A different target than the rest of the weapons on that vehicle.

It says nothing about squadrons of vehicles.

Joostuh wrote:Yes, it may fire at a different target! A different target than the rest of the weapons on that vehicle.

It says nothing about squadrons of vehicles.

There isnt much differeance between one vehicle targetting & the targetting of 3 vehicles in a squadren. Explain to me anything that would prevent this?

Do target locks work different in multile model units?

What exactly is your arguement here?

Joostuh wrote:Yes, it may fire at a different target! A different target than the rest of the weapons on that vehicle.

It says nothing about squadrons of vehicles.

Your right. It's much more specific than that. It says EACH WEAPON. That's way more specific than each vehicle. A pirannha has 3 weapons on it (assuming the gun drones are still attached). The squadron fires on target A. But Pirannha B has a TL so all three weapons may fire on different targets. So you can pick target B, C, D. No where in the TL rules does it say at least one has to be the vehicles target. Codex overrides Rulebook.

This list is very interesting, I wonder how it'll go against powergamer CSM lists, lash would be pretty useless, you could kill obliterators by getting behind their cover with the fusion blasters, daemon princes wouldn't last long against so many melta shots, and plague marines lose all their benefits and become more of a points liability, although players like me run all meltaguns in their squads the 4+ turboboost save will save a few

Just doesn't seem like tha great of a list, IMO.

Obviously there's rocks for this scissor in the form of the Hydra spam that the new IG Codex fairly demands...

But even when it's not a list tailored to take on low AV skimmers, you're still looking at AV11/10 skimmers, in squadrons, that depend on mobility, so a lot of damage results are going to mean that a model is gone. Even a Crew Stunned result is basically a dead Piranha. Basically all but one result on the chart are enough to waste the Piranha.

It's also 3 large units, so shooting is very unlikely to go to waste.

These are fragile models with very short ranged weapons. They're going to die in bunches.

Sau S5AP5 shooting is much overrated, especially with BS3 behind it. A S5AP5 shot at BS3 is no better than an S4AP5 Bolter shot at BS4 (against infantry). I can't tell you how many times I've picked up a whole brick of dice for my Fire Warriors, Stealthsuits, etc. and by the time the plastic cleared, the guy was removing one Marine.

Run the Mathhammer against Marines... 5 Burst Cannons, 15 shots, 7.5 hits, 5 wounds, 1.67 dead Marines. 25 points maybe? Other guy laffs, shoots back with a Plasma Gun and Lascannon (or whatever else), and kills a 60 point Piranha. Nice exchange. Marine player will take that all day.

Meanwhile, Assault Cannons, Heavy Bolters, Plasma Guns, Shuricannons, Multilasers, etc. etc. are shredding Piranhas out of the air with no problem.

Not saying it's a pushover list, but it's mainly a gimmick, has no troops to hold objectives, has a lot of lists that will demolish it just because of how their firepower is structured...

A Dakkafex would just laugh at 5 Piranhas, and then gun down 2-3 a turn. Even with Fusion Blasters, they need to be within 12", they get 5 shots, 2.5 hit, that's not generally going to be enough to stop a Fex. Meanwhile, you're using 400 points to take on a 115 point model. With 284 points of other models in support (say another Dakkafex and a Gunfex), you're losing that fight so fast, it's comical.