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I would have t osay the Predator. You can set it up to fill anti personnel or anti armor rolls, and it's dirt cheap. I love the Vindicator, but it has no back up weapon. One weapon destroyed roll and it's little more than an excuse to ram stuff. A predator has it's main weapon and the two sponsons to deal with before it's declawed.

d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-double post!

The Predator is versatile but not particularly effective. I personally favor the Dreadnought or Whirlwind for my Heavy Support slots.

Dreadnoughts are elite choices, at least in the DA codex they are, I'm pretty sure it's the same for vanilla marines as well.

Whirlwinds are nice, not having to have line of sight and having a couple of ammunition options, but my points are still on th ePredator, it's been more than effective in the battles I've used them in.

Dreads are Elite Choices, but they're also heavy support if you take a Master of the Forge as one of your HQ choices. The MoTF isn't actually too bad as a fighty character actually. You trade in the Captain's invul and extra WS and Wound, but gain the servo-arm attacks, artificer armor and the short-ranged shooting options. He's actually a superior choice against things without a power weapon and you probably wouldn't want to risk a captain against a hidden fist anyway. Bolster Defenses and a 4+ repair add a little utility.

Of course, most MoTF fans just take the Conversion Beamer, which is also nice.

IronAngels wrote:2 words...

LAND RAIDER

Godhammer Land Raider with a Multimelta. Aw yeah

Crusaders are only worth taking if you're a Daemonhunters player since theirs are helluva more useful than anyone else's, and Redeemers just seem like a silly idea to me. Seems to me that Immolators do a similar job yet cost less than half as much.

DarthDiggler wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:And dies when you look at it....which you will as it can't fire indirectly.

If you find killing a model which only gets destroyed about 13% of the time from a Space Marine with lascannon easy to kill, then we should all stay home from the Ard Boyz because you just won. The idea the Thunderfire cannon is easy to kill is laughable. It has a small profile to hide/get cover. The Techmarine adds +1 to it's cover save in Ruins. If you hit the Cannon, the shot reverts to the Techmarnie 33% of the time and he's got a 2+ armor save (and also a 3+/4+ cover save depending on where he's standing).

It is an easy kill any glance or pen on it's AV10 will kill it, that added to it's ability means it has a big fat target painted on it and draws fire like flies to crap. This doesn't mean it's worthless as an opponent will dedicate a lot of fire to remove it's threat but every time I've seen one it's died turn 1 or 2. I've played against them (as orks) it killed 6 boys (he got first turn) then blew up to loota fire.

Devistators are nice for whatever role you choose them for, a 10 man squad with 2 lascannon and 2 heavy bolters can be split up into 2 combat squads and give you some anti tank and anti infantry in one choice or you can split a squad with 4 of the same weapon and hit 2 targets. Landraiders are nice as well as they fill 2 roles of transport and that of a battle tank, tho you cant always judge versatility on what a unit can do, some times you also have to take into account on what your opponet will do to it. Land raiders tend to get shot up alot and generally take the punishment fairly well. devi squads in my experiance shen split into 2 5 mna suqds go more or less unnoticed uintill tehy kill that big MC or battle tank. again vehicles slinging pie plates and lots of death dealing weapons start to creep up the priority list.

Land Raider - Can do anything.

Anti Tank? All variants can take a Multi-Melta, and the Lascannons or Assault Cannon helps too.

Anti-Horde? Crusader and Redeemer get lots, Regular only gets a heavy bolter, but can fire from further away.

Carry Troops? Probably what these were made for.

All these on an AV14 all round platform, and can even fire a gun at another target so can engage infantry and a vehicle both at once.

Devastators

then give them a missile launcher, a lascannon, a multi melta and a heavy bolter

Landraider variants period. The points you pay for a devastator squad is wasted when you can get the same fire power in Mech.

Why take a squad of Devastators when you can take a Dakka pred; flat out better at antitroop.

Why take 4 lascannons when you can take a Landraider w/ 2 Twin Linked an Assault Cannon and Multimelta for the same cost.

Yeah, its completely useless.

Sure you can get a Rhino with 2 h. weapons and stick them in that but the thing is the points can be spent else where and wiser.

Hollismason wrote:Why take 4 lascannons when you can take a Landraider w/ 2 Twin Linked an Assault Cannon and Multimelta for the same cost.

cant take an assult cannon on a regular raider and if you could it would probly cost more than a 5 man devie squad with las cannons and a razorback with a twin cannon at a total of 300 points. for a total of 5 lascannon 2 being twin linked due to the sergent' signum, 40 more points as your raider with a multi melta but twice as anti-tanky.

That is not at all how the Signum works.

No but it is reroll one missed to hit, thats my point in saying a twin linked lascannon.

The only clearly good HS choice for marines is the land raider. All the others have flaws. More than any other section of the marine list, these are the choices that must complement the rest of your list.

Predator Destructor - Good value, good armour but can't move and fire more than one gun making sponsons less than optimal.
Vindicator - Kills everything, good armour, much too predictable due to short range. Unreliable but can be used well as a distraction.
Devestators with missile launchers - good against everything. Slightly expensive. Other weapon configs are either too specialised or too expensive.
Whirlwind - Great against light infanty, cheap. No anti-armour at all. Unreliable.
Thunderfire - Great against infantry, cheap. Vulnerable.
Sentry Guns (with multi-meltas) - V. Cheap, versatile. Very easy kill points
Predator Annihilator - Too expensive, keep them for Apoc (with quad lascannons)

Landraiders are a little different as they are most useful as transports or as firemagnets, their weapons are somewhat secondary. However, crusaders with a multi-melta are very versatile. Redeemers slightly less so but are devestating against MEQ. The twin-las raider is a bit less good these days. All quite expensive.

Pred Destructor: you get what you pay for, seriously...cheap and lots'o'guns. Sure you can't move an shoot any more (which is why I stopped using dakka preds) but in a different view point, it's so cheap, and puts out a decent number of shots you can afford to leave it in the back field...any shots going at is is a huge + for the other armored elements in the army.

Vindi: it's the 'short' (which I call medium though) range coupled with the largeish sides that make it vulnerable. Including the one gun issue, but as you say you pay for a distraction...hell it got cheaper over the years.

Devs: they are MORE static than the pred, though they are flexible in target choice, but again with the rules issues, I don't like them because you are paying for the same sort of troopers yet don't score.

Whirlwind: it's flexible only vs. infantry, the two shots make it a terror to infantry, but if we look at this holistically it's actually a very specilized weapon.
It 'can' hurt up to AV 11.... and funny enough I've done it consistantly to glance it, but it's unreliable at that and doesn't do much dmg to tanks.

Thunderfire: a different varient of the WW basically, but one more str to be able to glance AV12, but nothing to rely on.

Sentry guns: not going here.

Pred Annihilator: unlike the dakka pred, this varient stock did NOT get cheaper. It's expensive in the sense of lascannons losing a bit in 5th ed, but it's not... expensive expensive...

Land Raiders have their own problems... though AV 14, there are things out there that...'pop' them easily enough. In addition, it is flexible in the types of enemies they can shoot at, but I see it as an identity crisis.
They are FIRST and Foremost a delivery system for something choppy...then a gun boat...which means you are most likely operating at a lower direct offensive mode until the cargo is let loose.
No doubt there's a lot going for the LR, but like the Dakka pred, you get what you pay for, and the LR can be a pretty penny in terms of points and actual coin.

My 7 Cents.

Exactly, the LR is quite different to the other HS choices.

It can be an assault vehicle. It can be an objective sitter. It can be a gun platform. It can also be a distraction (redeemers in particular are too dangerous to a MEQ army to be ignored).

Definitely devastators you can kit them out to fill any roll and give them a rhino in case the enemy gets a little close for your liking.

Sanctjud wrote:
Sentry guns: not going here.

Why? Sentry guns are great! 15 points for a multimelta that has the option of deploying from reserve by deepstrike. And you can buy three as a single HS choice. The downside is that they're three easy kill points(AV10, destroyed by any pen or glance) so in 1/3 of games they become a liability.

Why?
Because I have no opinions on the guns, I don't use them and had no idea they existed.

If they are a 'forge world' item, then I don't use it for normal 40K.

/shrug.

My 7 Cents.

I think that the fact that there is not a one sided discussion regarding one of the choices means that they might all be in the contending. Except for the whirlwind, it seems.

The tanks versatility is the role it plays in the list that it is in. The role it fills in the list amounts to its versatility within the list. But if you want a "jack of all trades" Then any of the land raider variants. AI, AT and transport capacity all in one. true "versatility".

Whirlwinds have their place - they cook light infantry exceptionally well. And that's the point about the marine HS choices really, all of them do something well. Nothing does everything except the raider which is under-focused.

So all the choices are valid if they fit well in your list.

Sanctjud - you should check out IA2 (it's now updated for the current marine codex and available to download for free.) There aren't a lot of units for the marine codex but some of them are interesting. Multi-melta razorbacks are my favourite.

The Strange Dude wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:And dies when you look at it....which you will as it can't fire indirectly.

If you find killing a model which only gets destroyed about 13% of the time from a Space Marine with lascannon easy to kill, then we should all stay home from the Ard Boyz because you just won. The idea the Thunderfire cannon is easy to kill is laughable. It has a small profile to hide/get cover. The Techmarine adds +1 to it's cover save in Ruins. If you hit the Cannon, the shot reverts to the Techmarnie 33% of the time and he's got a 2+ armor save (and also a 3+/4+ cover save depending on where he's standing).

It is an easy kill any glance or pen on it's AV10 will kill it, that added to it's ability means it has a big fat target painted on it and draws fire like flies to crap. This doesn't mean it's worthless as an opponent will dedicate a lot of fire to remove it's threat but every time I've seen one it's died turn 1 or 2. I've played against them (as orks) it killed 6 boys (he got first turn) then blew up to loota fire.

We must play vastly different games. I've just won 6 straight Ard Boyz games, including my second semi-final overall win, and I've never had the Thunderfire cannon die once. In one games it was responsible for killing 45 daemonettes in 4 turns. In another game it immobilizes a Land Raider full of Black Templars. In another game it put 13 wounds on a pathfinder unit 42" from my lines and in cover. No cover saves for those pathfinders and away they went. Points for points the Thunderfire cannon is the best Heavy Support choice in the space marine codex.

@Scott-S6:
/Shrug, if it's not on the GW site as a FAQ or update of some sorts I don't think I will be using it.

It's supposed to be a permissive rules set, if it says we can use IA, I'll jump onto it, if not, I won't assume I can.

At the end of the day I guess it would more depend on my gaming group, and what they think of it. (if it's ok to use or not).

@DarthDiggler:
I'm glad you've had success with thunderfire cannons.

The question of this thread which is the most versitile. Now granted, it's a subjective thing, I wouldn't say the thunderfire is most versitile in terms of attacking all types of targets, it's not something you'd shake at a vehicle with.

Now immobilizing a LR with DT rolls is funny, it's not reliable (another factor in the whole versitile issue).

I think I've had a more average view on thunderfires, they are cool against hordes, but stuff like KFF and mech armies blunt it a little, it's great against hordes no doubt, but needs something to bunch up the enemy with.
And in my 'viewing' of other peoples' games with them, they always end up dead to some random shooting from razor backs... or reaper autocannon on an immobilized battlecannon less defiler....stuff like that.

My 7 Cents.

Im still going with my devies 300 pts for 5 lascannons is hard to pass up

Touched on earlier, but not completely, the Master of the Forge unlocks Dreadnoughts as a HS choice.

Some great options that will compete with the shooty HS options are

Venerable shooting dreadnought
T-L Lascannon/ML is a classic choice, versatile and deadly, however, I'm about to start using double Autocannon Dreads. More shots, medium A-V power, and BS 5 with the defensive ability to force re-rolls on the damage chart. Isn't this already used by the Dark Angels as the Mortis Dreadnought? Does that one have Venerable and BS5 too?

Ironclad Dreadnought - Tough as a Predator, able to take anything from siegebreaker equipment to Hurricane bolters and Heavy Flamers. A real in-your-face solution, usually Drop Podded. Point for point, I can really see these competing for top HS choice.

I have to say, I don't think a Marine force is complete without at least one Walker, they just do so much. Even a basic vanilla Dread can tie up a Death Company, wreck any vehicle in close combat, including a Land Raider, and navigate terrain areas safer than a Tank. Their main drawback being speed, they move at the same rate as infantry, but now you can Run them, and utilize Drop Pods, making them even more valuable in my opinion.

All that said, I have to agree that despite it's shortcomings, the Thunderfire cannon is both the most versatile and points efficient HS choice in the codex. It's the shiny new toy of this edition, you better believe it's got the chops to make you want to buy it.

Oh yea i didnt even think of dreads, mortis style would be a decent choice for a lower points game. in a 1750-2000 point game I would still go with devies in a razorback as being pretty danm good at what ever you kit it out for

Ven dread: crazy expensive though.
It ends up being an issue of quantiity vs. quality of shot when compared to a dev squad.

Ven dreads can still be silenced for a round as well, face it, AV 12 is average for armor.

Ironclads are cool with 2 DCCW's and the melta/hvy flamer, better with vulkan. But once it arrives it's slow and the back arc (when closer to the enemy) is easier to exploit and is still only AV 10.

I don't know about dreads being in Hvy, it requires an investment of a HQ slot and 3 digit points values to unlock it.
Then you have to worry about were/what/who the MoTF will hang out with.

Certainly an option.
I'd have to say a Normal Dread with MM and Hvy flamer in a pod.

Cheap, comes in where you need, most likely on/near the spot you designate.
Has the weapons to seriously threaten AV and infantry.

Cons:
2 Kill points.
Only AV 12 in close range to the enemy.
Can be a liability if it's the only pod in the army as it's not always desirable to come in first turn.

My 7 Cents.

Venerable Dreadnoughts are great for carrying non-Twin-Linked weapons like Multi-Meltas and Storm Bolters. They make ideal gunboat Dreadnoughts.

There all exelent in their intended roles its way too hard to jsut choose one. thats why you get 3 slots