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They are one unit that is not horribly effective in assault. Use a unit that is Stubborn (not a necessity, but a good piece of insurance), has a great armor save and can wound on a 2+ to force as many saves as possible.

Surprisingly, Stubborn Terminators aren't a bad choice. However, the real issue is how good of a general you are to get the bikes to get in range so they can be assaulted.

For added measure, a Librarian with Null Zone and Psychic Hood to help mitigate Fortune.

I love all this talk about Nullzone being useful against the Council. LOL

Do you guys realize that there is a less than 50% chance of even getting Nullzone off against RoW, while the Farseer has a 50% chance of Getting past the Hood? Also, the Libby will Perils on any roll of 12+ on 3d6; given that the average roll on 3d6 is 10.5, the odds are not in favor of the Libby, at all. Math-hammer says that Farseer>Libby.

Sure, you can try to take on the Council with a psyker of your own, but it is nowhere near as effective as good ol' volume of fire or massive CC attacks.

Forcing saves is the best way to kill the council, period.

Terminators or anything with a 2+ save are the best counter to the council. The 2+ save makes it difficult to kill models, even with a heap of wounds from witchblades. Terminators also usually carry fists/hammers which can kill the farseer, and lightning claws are ace against the regular warlocks.

I agree with Alerian on this, eldar psykers are a cut above libbys and psyker battle squads. The libby doesn't have to worry about the perils hits as much as most people seem to give them storm shields but with the battle squads that is d3 dead models every time you go for 13+.

I do like the termie option as any failed saves from basic termies or TH/SS termies have the ability to ID the farseer and are fairly resilient to non power weapon attacks. Although this solution has the potential to out cost the problem.

IG Hydra

thehod wrote:Ctan will destroy them.

The council on bike will most likely turbo zoom so sternguard can only at that poojnt negate one of the 3 saves and nullzone will negate the invulnerable saves.

I would say first turn is what Seer Councils fear. 1 turn of no psychic powers and no benefits from turbo mean a good sucker punch can kill the entire council.

how do Ctan destroy them? Ctan's high toughness is completely irrelevent to the combat in every way (witchblades) and the very mediocre 4+ save won't stop enough of the pile of wounds it will take.

Evil Eli wrote:IG Hydra

They have a regular 3+ save that gets re-rolled with Fortune... Hydras don't do anything special at all against them.

Alerian wrote:I love all this talk about Nullzone being useful against the Council. LOL

Do you guys realize that there is a less than 50% chance of even getting Nullzone off against RoW, while the Farseer has a 50% chance of Getting past the Hood? Also, the Libby will Perils on any roll of 12+ on 3d6; given that the average roll on 3d6 is 10.5, the odds are not in favor of the Libby, at all. Math-hammer says that Farseer>Libby.

Sure, you can try to take on the Council with a psyker of your own, but it is nowhere near as effective as good ol' volume of fire or massive CC attacks.

Forcing saves is the best way to kill the council, period.

If you have the ability to try and mitigate Fortune, it's a valid point to make. It's the single power alone that really makes this unit hard as nails. A Bike Seer Council is a large investment in points that can tear up tanks, but is a bit lackluster in assault. They can be a great tarpit, but that's really their extent. Rather than throwing a large amount of points against them, use a less expensive unit such as 5 Terminators to get stuck in.

Unless it is a 1 wound model (Tzeentch Sorcerers, IIRC), I typically don't face opponents afraid of casting psychic powers on 3d6 b/c of Runes of Warding. It's surprising how many powers get through.

Exorcists, unless you moved enough to get your cover save.

That +4 inv is pretty easy to fail, esp if they roll a 6 and on average will force you to take about 3-4 +4 inv saves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

how do Ctan destroy them? Ctan's high toughness is completely irrelevent to the combat in every way (witchblades) and the very mediocre 4+ save won't stop enough of the pile of wounds it will take.

Unless they can do 5 unsaved wounds to toughness 8, they will all die.

What's their weapon skill? Nightbringer has a weapon skill of 6, and int of 4, I assume they would go first, but I doubt they would do as many wounds as you think.

Also, I assume since they're eldar, they're unmodified str 3? If they charge the nightbringer he can just Etheric Tempest them and counter charge on his turn, both giving him 6 attacks that ignore all saves, and also denying them the extra attacks.

Ctan kill everything in CC pretty much.

Kreedos wrote:Exorcists, unless you moved enough to get your cover save.

That +4 inv is pretty easy to fail, esp if they roll a 6 and on average will force you to take about 3-4 +4 inv saves.


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how do Ctan destroy them? Ctan's high toughness is completely irrelevent to the combat in every way (witchblades) and the very mediocre 4+ save won't stop enough of the pile of wounds it will take.

Unless they can do 5 unsaved wounds to toughness 8, they will all die.

What's their weapon skill? Nightbringer has a weapon skill of 6, and int of 4, I assume they would go first, but I doubt they would do as many wounds as you think.

Also, I assume since they're eldar, they're unmodified str 3? If they charge the nightbringer he can just Etheric Tempest them and counter charge on his turn, both giving him 6 attacks that ignore all saves, and also denying them the extra attacks.

Ctan kill everything in CC pretty much.

^^ Someone obviously knows NOTHING about the Eldar or Witchblades, or that post would never have been made.
T8 means nothing to a Witchblade. 30 attacks that hit on 4+ (average 15 hits) and wound on 2+ (average 12.5 wounds) will do serious dmg (average of 6.25 unsaved wounds)...most likely resulting in Nightbringer's demise. If the Council casts Doom on Nightbringer, it gets even nastier, as the few 1s the council rolls to wound will get to reroll.

Edit: Even in Nightbringer charges the 10 man council, he will still take 20 attacks, which is 10 hits, which is 8-9 wounds, which is 4 unsaved wounds... (I was lazy and disn't want to do real math for the second numbers ) This means that he would have to hit the Council w/o previoulsy atking any wounds, just to be able to attack back, since they all go at I5.

Mind you these numbers are only for the 10 Warlocks, once you add in the Farsser, and maybe an Autarch, it only gets worse for the C'tan.

I play the bike council. Things I fear....

1. C'tan
2. Emperors Champion. He can single out Farseer in HtH.
3. Massed fire.
4. Anything that can get into HtH with my Farseer with str 6 weapon.

Nullzone is fail. You first have to get it up on 3 dice, at least if Eldar player has Runes of Warding.

Culexus Assassin has a very short range. Should be able to dance around him.

OddJob. wrote:
Guess again:

150 shots x 1/2 hit x 1/3 wound x 8/9 saves = 2.8 dead warlocks. woo. quote]

Emperors Faithful;
Wait a second, 150 to hit on bs3 is 75 hits roughly. So to wound toughness 4 (bikes) with strength 3 = about 25 wounds, alot more than 8 or 9 saves. Easily enough to kill the whole squad with a little luck.

Ive found that Thousand Sons can lay down enough ap3 fire to make them use and lose those 4+ invuln. and whilst they are slow, place them near areas you want the council to avoid (control their fly zones!).

I've beaten bike council lists a couple of times recently with IG. A couple of tricks:

-I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Callidus Assassin. She ignores regular and invulnerable saves, AND she teleports onto the board and can charge the same turn, so you can always catch the bastards. Her problem is living long enough to make those attacks, though.

-A DH Inquisitor Lord with a Psychic Hood gives you a 50/50 shot at negating Fortune each turn. Wait until you make it, then blast them with everything you've got.

-If you're going for volume of fire it helps a lot to have AP 3. It takes twice as many wounds (9 vs. 4) to get one through a 3+ rerollable save compared to a 4+. So a lasgun, say, is 54 shots-per-kill, while a plasma gun is only 9.6 at BS 3, or 7.2 at BS 4. Plasmagun Vets at short range can get the job done eventually.

-If they turboboost and you're playing that they can't fortune, use Fire On My Target.

-If all else fails, you can try to tarpit them with a huge squad, especially in an objective game. Sacrifice a small target (hopefully) as bait, then jump them with something big with a Commissar attached or otherwise stubborn.

darkkt wrote:Ive found that Thousand Sons can lay down enough ap3 fire to make them use and lose those 4+ invuln. and whilst they are slow, place them near areas you want the council to avoid (control their fly zones!).

Oh please! Spare me the Thousand Sons Ap3 rule! Do you know how much I have suffered?!?
Oh god!!! The nightmares! The torment! That God-Emperor damned mocking laughter! Please no more! ( sob )

(Whisper) Please don't hurt me...

Emperors Faithful wrote:

OddJob. wrote:
Guess again:

150 shots x 1/2 hit x 1/3 wound x 8/9 saves = 2.8 dead warlocks. woo. quote]

Emperors Faithful;
Wait a second, 150 to hit on bs3 is 75 hits roughly. So to wound toughness 4 (bikes) with strength 3 = about 25 wounds, alot more than 8 or 9 saves. Easily enough to kill the whole squad with a little luck.

25 saves on 3+ is 8,33 wounds. Reroll from fortune makes it 2,7777.

Steelmage99 wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

OddJob. wrote:
Guess again:

150 shots x 1/2 hit x 1/3 wound x 8/9 saves = 2.8 dead warlocks. woo. quote]

Emperors Faithful;
Wait a second, 150 to hit on bs3 is 75 hits roughly. So to wound toughness 4 (bikes) with strength 3 = about 25 wounds, alot more than 8 or 9 saves. Easily enough to kill the whole squad with a little luck.

25 saves on 3+ is 8,33 wounds. Reroll from fortune makes it 2,7777.

Damn it! You're right! That shuts me up...

Average outcome of 3D6 is 10.5, but since this isnt a possible integer value the probability of this occurance must be split between the closest integers. Assuming a normal distribution (close enough) this split will be equal between 10 and 11. Thus a Ld10 Nullzone has a 50% chance of working.

Tied in with the 42% chance of winning a psychic hood blocking a single fortune attempt gives the Librarian a 76% chance of stopping fortune in a meaningful way.

Without fortune the bikelocks should be toast. You might even get lucky (~20% chance?) and both stop fortune and cast null zone.

I reckon Librarians are a decent choice.

You're...making...my...head...hurt (*pop*)

Just read the last line and you'll do ok:

"I reckon Librarians are a decent choice."

OddJob. wrote:Just read the last line and you'll do ok:

"I reckon Librarians are a decent choice."

(Whisper) Smartass...

Emperors Faithful wrote:

OddJob. wrote:Just read the last line and you'll do ok:

"I reckon Librarians are a decent choice."

(Whisper) Smartass...

Uhm...you're the one that complained he was making your head hurt, so he tried to politely help you.

whitedragon wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

OddJob. wrote:Just read the last line and you'll do ok:

"I reckon Librarians are a decent choice."

(Whisper) Smartass...

Uhm...you're the one that complained he was making your head hurt, so he tried to politely help you.

No offense intended.

OddJob. wrote:

whitedragon wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

OddJob. wrote:Just read the last line and you'll do ok:

"I reckon Librarians are a decent choice."

(Whisper) Smartass...

Uhm...you're the one that complained he was making your head hurt, so he tried to politely help you.

No offense intended.

LOL! I was just kidding, a bit of harmless banter.
I didn't think you were taking me seriously, sorry if I seemed a little grumpy.

Str 5 weaponary. As AP3 is pretty hard to come by & thier bikes can turbo-boost easily enough for a 3+ coversave just forget the ap in favour of volume.

Purely acedemic choice here; Leman russ punisher with full heavy bolter compliements, a squadren of two (which get boned on the charge, I know)

29 str 5 shots. Damn! That only causes 1.34 ish unsaved wounds.. I guess its not that much of a useful platform;

Based on that premise; Flamer weaponary. The above leman russ only score about 15 hits which (i think) equates to about 2-3 flamer templates (depending on squad size) although I could be wrong, as spacings on jetbikes is going to be alot more generous than standard model bases.

Still, the banewolf should have enough engagement range to travel in & get them with its chem cannon. AP3 & wounds on 2's, aswell as h.bolter fire. A squad of two (260pts) should do about 2.8 wounds worth to a squad - (totally assuming here) they can get within ranged without getting spanked by a charge & can hit 6 per template.

It's a small squad, which suggests attacks that roll to hit rather than blasts or templates. Their saves suggest a massed attack strategy and their mobility suggests long range or matching mobility. Lootas might work. Dire Avengers are another candidate. Some forms of shooty gaunts look promising.

I know I'm not being creative but there are only two REAL options...

a) Throw lots of feth at them (always popular)

or my personal favourite

b) Titan

30 firewarriors whom tap once within 30" & double tap within 18" (effective) will kill about 5.5 jetbikers. Wound allocation will be pretty risky, so the farseer will take the least risk, as lots of wounding to-be-saved shots are loaded onto each member of the shot.

Requires to guarentee 6 pathfinders shooting at the jetbiker squad too, over the two shooting phases, to put a total of three markerlight hits on them over each shooting phase.

Voilia!

N.b Ofcourse the jetbikers could turboboost from outside the 30" range to within charge range, get double tapped & only take 2/3 of those listed casulties but hey, tis how it works.

Surround them with spinegaunts.

5 TH/SS terminators tend to really rock a council, even more so if the libby nearby got off null zone.

asugradinwa wrote: 5 TH/SS terminators tend to really rock a council, even more so if the libby nearby got off null zone.

...they are no better than basic SB/PF termies against the Council, since they have the same number of attacks, the same 2+ to wound, and the same 2+ save. Actually, the SB/PF termies are better, because they get to shoot the Council as well.