Article Discussion: Vanilla Chaos Marines vs. Cult Marines - A Comparison

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**Khestra the Unbeheld**

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:Good stuff. Sucks about your luck I'm taking Vanilla CSM to ArdBoyz so I'll try and do some good reports off that.

You'll most likely get your clock cleaned unless you Icon the snot out of them. Given the sickness that the new IG + DH combos have become, I'm seriously considering fielding nothing but 1K Sons and Icon of Tzeentch CSMs for this, just to make them as big a pain in the ass as possible to kill. Lots of Oblits, two Princes, and three squads of outflanking Chosen with Icons of Tzeentch should be nice. Let us know how it goes, though, if the Vanillas come up with the surprise victory it'll be a great boost to morale, especially in something as rough as 'Ard Boyz.

**Cannerus_The_Unbearable**

With 1k Sons you'll be incredibly overpaying for your guys and your low numbers are going to bite you, especially considering the lack of anti-tank they have. The more Vanillas I get, the more Meltas I get so the supposedly unbeatable tanks with guns get 1 turn to do something about the bajillion Meltas running at them. That and no matter how "uber" a gun is, you still have to not only roll to hit and penetrate a rhino, but you have to roll do anything that matters. Most are getting IoCG and it'll more than cover it, with a couple of Slaanesh thrown in.

**AbsoluteBlue**

I think the balance I might add for mine is "maybe" big maybe is have two of my troop choices be Plague Marines, still with 2x Meltas and have the Sorcs run with them. So I think they would end up looking like

7x PM (PC/PF, 2x Melta) w/ Rhino (Sorc rides with PM). This is the non-fluff mode for sure

In fluff mode, I might try to run a few NM units, but they are expensive for not haveing any decent anti-heavy, other than the NC w/ PF and the Blastmaster, but even thast marginal compared to two meltas

I know odds are against me rolling 11s twice in a row, but it hurt so much that I did and that the Sorcs were in those units that I almost want to attach them to fearless units. We'll see, not changing anything yet, need to playtest a lot more.

**Cannerus_The_Unbearable**

Oh! Fluff alert! Digging through the old CSM Dex, Slaanesh had a banner that gave FnP! PM away, and when someone tries to say otherwise, slap it in their face.

Oh, and I appreciate another "Somethinggrimdark the un-somethinggrimdark" posting on the thread

More people should follow that formula for names.

**AbsoluteBlue**

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:Oh! Fluff alert! Digging through the old CSM Dex, Slaanesh had a banner that gave FnP! PM away, and when someone tries to say otherwise, slap it in their face.

Yeah, I forget about Count Zazz for some reason... you're right though and I never knew that piece of history (Thanks!), I should just apply the right "Theme" and go for it. Good call!

**Cannerus_The_Unbearable**

Made a couple of minor edits. In much playtesting I've found that 6 CSM squads can make a very strong core with quite a bit of defensive or offensive versatility, even with a standard 2x melta, IoCG, Fist-champ setup. I've had big trouble with Chaos Daemons when I don't get a good turn of shooting first, because many of their units are made to eat MEQs and can be taken in just enough mass to be threatening. I5 Power Weapons on the charge and lots of rending make CC an unreliable option, though the bolters more than do their job given the chance. I haven't stopped running all my Rhinos with an extra TL Bolter as it's provided lots more versatility and that extra Weapon Destroyed/Immobilized result is well worth the 5 points. I'm trying to strike the balance of knowing when I need to disembark (usually when I know the rhino will die next turn and the squad will get assaulted anyway). At least then I get a turn of Rapid Fire or a chance to launch the charge myself,a nd maybe even give the Rhino time to support a squad that's lost theirs or just save the Kill Point. I'm optimistic about Ard Boyz as long as I avoid units that specifically kill marines up close. My Heavy choices cover anything else (thoguh I sadly am not running Assault Havocs this year).

**AbsoluteBlue**

So far against Orks, I have found equal points in Plague Marines (PC/PF, 2x Melta), instead of Vanilla, has worked better... the extra defense is incredible.

The same will not hold true against armies like IG, that have melta and/or plasma spam, I would rather have more bodies so CSM would be favored.

I need to test more too, but so far I am leaning towards using Plague Marines.

**darkkt**

After minor playtesting, mainly against IG, i continue to be a staunch Thousand Sons supporter. The ap3 is easy to ignore, but the rapid fire and move means they cannot be ignored.

I play mainly cityfight, meaning that my sons can control the streets (not needing 4+ cover saves), and leave my zerkers and PMs to take objectives.

**Ironwarriors4life**

Perturabo's Chosen wrote:If you really like CSM, you wouldn't call them vanilla, at least not to their face. I've had Iron Warriors since '95, and I can tell you they have plenty of flavor (like the perfect burger, no cheese required).

This article sounds like you are prejudice against cult marines, and thus lacks the objectivity to be a good comparison. You should point out the PROs of cult marines, not just the cons.

I also digress with your "ten commandments".
1: what about people who want an entire khorne, bezerker, or World Eater army. These are quite popular, quality, and (most importantly) fun.

2. Not on Noise Marines or a squad with an Icon of Slanesh.

3. or plasma guns, or flamers, but never the plasma pistols

4. you mean 'engage multiple enemy units with as few of your own units as possible in close combat'

5. you mean numbers more than 10 (as an 11 +man squad will just be walking next to their ride until someone dies).

6. Icon of Chaos Glory is the best Icon available for basic CSM squads.(why pay points for an expensice squad that runs away?) but this doesn't mean that you can't take/find uses for the others Any Icon is awesome on terminators. Think Slaneesh I5 termis with lightnings claws, or Khorne termis with powerfists. Tzeench termis that can live through a hail of shots when they deep strike. Nurgle bikers; T6, need I say more?You get the picture.

7.eh, no Comment, but I disagree.

8. True! I agree.

9. That's your opinion. Hardcore fluff players may disagree.

10. 4 entire legions that went to cults, and 4 that didn't, numbers about equal. Take what you like to play, paint, and model.

Berzerkers are 21pts each=furious Charge,fearless,much better than CSm!!!!

**Cannerus_The_Unbearable**

And they can rapid fire? And they've got any more protection than regular CSM? They can kill a tank in anyway other than charging with a Powerfist? They can always have I5, not just on the charge? In short, at one thing, maybe. Fearless is much more of a liability in CC.

**AbsoluteBlue**

I would argue that Fearless in CC can be good and/or bad depending on the type of unit and the objective of that unit.

10 Berzerkers that have the charge should win most assaults, so fearless shouldn't be an issue.

Is the unit designed to tarpit an enemy or is it fodder for preparing counter assault units, flamers spam, etc.

tarpits can be fearless for effect, I have rarely had an issue with fearless in CC, I will occasionally lose a model or two, but it has rarely been a deciding factor.

I have never ran CSM as fodder

so can't speak towards that.

That said, your points about the single mindedness and limited utility of Berzekers should be noted. (they tear it up in CC, but suffer greatly once they win, consolidate, and get shot to hell)

**Cannerus_The_Unbearable**

In my experience with Daemons I've seen it wreak havoc on Bloodletters, which is the main reason I'm so biased against it. If Zerkers had power weapons I'd be much more prone to liking them (I miss you, chainaxes...).

**AbsoluteBlue**

It definitely has its goods and bads... I just know I hate dice

**Shadowbrand**

I do often take my Noise Marines with me over Vanilla's, however my Noise Marines i only use for picking off foot slogger's I use heavier firepower like melta and lascannons for Damaging tank's

For those uber super cool heroes. Ill either lash them into a firing squad of Noise Marines or use the Blissgiver. though alot of heroes have EW

I really appreciate their being alot of tactica for Chaos i'm really the only local chaos player so i learn most my stuff by my own or from net sources ty

**Nurglitch**

The Blissgiver is still A3+D6 Power Weapon attacks at I6, which is pretty awesome when I5 is what most other Independent Characters have. Even with Eternal Warrior, an opponent is going to have to take a mass of Invulnerable saving throws. Otherwise you can sweep up units of Nobs and the like.

**Mistress of minis**

Also- one thing I havent seen mentioned here yet, Berzerkers dont just get an extra attack, Furious Charge and fearless- Theyre also WS 5. Which is a pretty big deal when all combined together.

Ive ran a Fabius army with a swarm of Enhanced CSM, IoK and a couple meltas mounted up. This gives them S5 and the same base attacks as a 'Zerk, but the firepower of regular CSM's so they can rapid fire upon disembark or melta tanks. They tend to do well recieving the assault too since they dont rely on Furious charge. I think the big difference is everyone is scared of 'zerkers. Most people dont know that the enhanced marines are just as bad, and in some cases worse.

**Nurglitch**

The thing about Berzerkers is that they are scary: Hitting on 3+ against so many opponents, S5 I5 on the charge, with four attacks, but only if you can get the charge. They're almost too scary though, because anyone can set out a picket unit, let them get wiped out, and then shoot the Berzerkers up. Or shoot the Berzerkers out of their transports and mop them up as they cross the table. So yeah, like most 'scary' units they're scary until the novelty has worn off.

That said, I think more and more people are picking up on the utility of Enhanced Marines, but I think they'll survive their novelty better because Chaos Space Marines are already a swiss army hammer. They can crack open a transport with their Melta Guns, and then crack the nuts inside with their S5 A3 each. The best part is that the Forces of Chaos section lists Havocs, Chosen, and Bikers as Chaos Space Marines, as well as Chaos Space Marines. Enhanced Chosen armed to the teeth can be downright fun.

It's good that people are finally exploring the versatility of Codex: Chaos Space Marines and breaking out of the ONE TRUE LASH mentality. The fascinating part is just how much there is in the Codex once you look beyond the obvious units, and most of them are very versatile in themselves.

**Mistress of minis**

Nurglitch wrote:The best part is that the Forces of Chaos section lists Havocs, Chosen, and Bikers as Chaos Space Marines, as well as Chaos Space Marines. Enhanced Chosen armed to the teeth can be downright fun.

Could you please tell me what page thats on? Ive looked and looked and couldnt find anything that justified being able to enhance anything othr than Basic CSM troops. Enhanced chosen would be sweet...

**Nurglitch**

Chaos Space Marines, Forces of Chaos, Codex: Chaos Space Marines, pp.26-27.

**Madgod**

I reckon this article was kinda biased. I love cult troops (thus making me biased too

) and they are better than CSM at everything they are made to do. Sure CSM can get heavy wepons and bolters but zerkers carve up in CC. Sure CSM move faster but Ksons kill MEQ's and laugh off returning AP3 fire.

In summary i disagree cult troops beat vanilla at everything theyre sposed to do. Thats my 2 cents worth

**Nurglitch**

What a rich and compelling rebuttal to the article...

**Cannerus_The_Unbearable**

If you'll check, I've said multiple times the article was biased. That's kinda the point

I also said if someone writes a "Why cult troops pwn CSM" Article, between the two, we'd have a great source of info to benefit the CSM community. 'zerkers aren't worth it off the charge and don't get meltaguns. Try doing the Math-hammer sometime, and you'll see that anything with Meltaguns is much better off a wider range of targets than something with just a P-Fist.

In summary, the article says: 'Zerkers kinda barely justify themselves, Plague Marines are worth it for a defensive role, 1k Sons try but cost way too much, and Noise Marines are fine if they stand still for 4 turns of the game. At least it did originally, I know it got edited to be a little more fair at one point.

**schadenfreude**

Zerkers are stuck with nothing but plasma pistols without the option to take melta guns making them a fatally flawed unit.

Without melta guns zerkers are unable to crack a transport in the shooting phase, and thus will not get the charge off against the unit inside without significant help from the rest of the army (if available) FC is a completely moot point if facing mech and the zerkers have no way of cracking transports.

Vanilla marines with nothing more than a cheap IOCG have 1 less ws and 1 less attack, but can crack a transport. The loss of 2 melta guns is not worth 1 WS and 1 attack, and as previously stated the loss of FC is a moot point against mech.

**Zulander**

Zerkers that take 3 Plasma Pistols can crack ork transports and rhinos, it's just a little more difficult. You can always equip the rhino with a combi-melta though if that's your worry. Again zerkers aren't there to blow tanks up, if that's what you're using your normal marines for then think your list has to change. I use 2 DP's and 1 SGD, 3 Oblits, 2 defilers and a squad of noise marines and PM's with melta's so my last squad of zerkers usually don't go around tank hunting

Just don't put anything on your zerker champion and replace him with the SGD, there's your tank hunting