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This is an excellent discussion of Vanilla marines (I admit I had lost a lot of love for them, I may revisit that position). My builds have tended to be predominiantly mixes of Zerkers, Thousand sons and Plauge marines, with CSMs only where I had spare points.

I will be revisiting my lists given this great analysis.

Cheers

There are few corrections to be made to this article.

1.) For starters, the CSM may get an Icon of Khorne, equaling their attacks. In a 10-man squad this would cost half as much as the difference between a Berzerker and a CSM.

Not true. IoK is exactly the point differential between 10 CSMs and 10 'zerkers. All of the other Icon Options are cheaper than their cult alternatives at 10 men per squad.

2.) With several viable Anti-tank options (including all of those available to Berzerkers), a small squad can kill a much bigger target. It should also be noted that a squad of CSM has all the protection a Berzerker squad has, except costs less.

I think this is not an 'apples to apples' comparison. If you wanted an anti-tank option, you wouldn't take Berzerkers to begin with (because plasma pistols and melta bombs just won't cut it). I'm glad you pointed it out for completeness, but don't feel it truely impacts the comparison.

In fairness to you, since I usually run 9 'zerkers with Kharn in a Rhino, I am considering swapping them for CSM's with IoK. Then, when Kharn kills someone, they're not as expensive

3.) The CSM are better than Thousand Sons at everything they do except for shooting at Marines without cover or getting shot by special weapons. If you wish to take Thousand Sons, take them for the above reasons and they can serve you well, though at a premium with the added weight of a Sorcerer champ. Due to their extremely slow nature, always give Thousand Sons a Rhino.

I disagree with you as to the optimum role for 1k sons. I think they are one of the best 'tar pit' units in Chaos. However, because your sorceror is limited to a Force Weapon, what they can tar pit is somewhat narrowed (i.e. not walkers). I suppose you could give him melta bombs to work around this. But the 4+ inv save is best used in hth. The force weapon is best used in hth. And the best power for the sorceror IMO is Doom Bolt. It's cheap, and it's 3 extra inferno bolt shots at 18''. It has the best synergy. Also note you can cast your spell and use the Force weapon in assault thanks to MoT.

All that said, I don't use 1k sons because they are so situational in shooting (MEQ or you wasted points on ap 3) and hth (don't contact walkers or you're dead).

4.) If you are attempting to use Plague Marines in any way other than being purely defensive, CSM do it better.

You state this right after you praise Plague Marines as objective takers. They are the best objective takers in the game. As such, they are an offensive, not defensive unit. Maybe I'm just parsing words here; I could see someone arguing that holding objectives is defensive. They certainly don't provide the fire base that CSM can (again, apples to apples) but are so much more survivable that they can be more aggressive than CSMs. If it were not for FNP, CSM would be better though.

5.) Just the difference between un-upgraded ten man squads is enough for 2 Rhinos and a Meltagun, or over half of another 10-man CSM squad.

It's actually not quite 5 CSMs but your point is well made; CSM are much cheaper than Plague Marines. But with FNP, I think it comes close to even on that. If anyone has a theory for math-hammering that out I'd love to see it. I think too much depends on the attacking weapon in question though.

6.) The Blastmaster runs into the same territory as the Thousand Sons Aspiring Sorcerer; overpriced for what it does. The Doom Siren might be an option for a squad that’s not kitted out otherwise, though two regular flamers will usually do the same job it does for 5 less points. And...Other than taking Noise Marine special weapons throughout the squad, CSM can do everything Noise Marines can for much cheaper.

This part here is actually what motivated me to write this response. These two special weapons are the reason to take Noise Marines. The reason: they're AP 3! And they're not limited in range or effectiveness like a 1k son's bolter. The Blastmaster also serves as a light vehicle hunter. The obvious response also involves Lash of Submission; but let's avoid that issue for now to maintain a good comparison. The Blastmaster is a superior weapon to the standard Missle Launcher, and you can field one for less than the cost of the 10 CSM's you need to buy the Missle Launcher. Throw in Fearless, the alternate fire mode and Pinning, and that squad is much better hands down.

Doomsiren is an amazing weapon on a champion with PW. Give that squad a rhino, and they can be a terrifying assault unit. It should also be noted that if you wanted to pay the points, you could give the champ a Doom Siren and a Sonic Blaster (Doom Siren does not replace any weapons, Blaster replaces bolter). I don't like Sonic Blasters for the reasons you mentioned; but don't lump these two weapons in with them they are amazing.

I completely agree with your other assesments. Don't get me wrong; you've really done a good job with this article in explaining the virtues of CSM. Other than some minor math problems and differences of opinion on the purpose of some cult squads, we are in complete agreement. Overall a fine job and I look forward to discussing this further.

If you really like CSM, you wouldn't call them vanilla, at least not to their face. I've had Iron Warriors since '95, and I can tell you they have plenty of flavor (like the perfect burger, no cheese required).

This article sounds like you are prejudice against cult marines, and thus lacks the objectivity to be a good comparison. You should point out the PROs of cult marines, not just the cons.

I also digress with your "ten commandments".
1: what about people who want an entire khorne, bezerker, or World Eater army. These are quite popular, quality, and (most importantly) fun.

2. Not on Noise Marines or a squad with an Icon of Slanesh.

3. or plasma guns, or flamers, but never the plasma pistols

4. you mean 'engage multiple enemy units with as few of your own units as possible in close combat'

5. you mean numbers more than 10 (as an 11 +man squad will just be walking next to their ride until someone dies).

6. Icon of Chaos Glory is the best Icon available for basic CSM squads.(why pay points for an expensice squad that runs away?) but this doesn't mean that you can't take/find uses for the others Any Icon is awesome on terminators. Think Slaneesh I5 termis with lightnings claws, or Khorne termis with powerfists. Tzeench termis that can live through a hail of shots when they deep strike. Nurgle bikers; T6, need I say more?You get the picture.

7.eh, no Comment, but I disagree.

8. True! I agree.

9. That's your opinion. Hardcore fluff players may disagree.

10. 4 entire legions that went to cults, and 4 that didn't, numbers about equal. Take what you like to play, paint, and model.

@dark: Thanks!

@DJ66: Thanks for the criticism, especially as well as you put it. I only have time to reply to your first point now as I'm at work, but what I meant was that a 10-man CSM squad is 150 and a 10-man 'zerk squad is 210, whereas IoK is half that difference. So it's kinda like paying for half the 'zerkerness (the +1 attack part) but not for the other parts (+1 WS, Furious Charge). Hope that makes sense. I also meant Objective taking as a defensive strategy on the Plaguers.

@Perturabo: I don't think Vanilla is an insulting word. CSM are like Tofu, you flavor them yourself, and they can be any flavor you want. And I figured my intro would convey that I am biased, but I tried to keep the subjectivity down nonetheless. I'd love to see an article opposing mine and I believe, between the two, a lot of players could put their own view together and benefit.

I thought it was a very good article. I know a lot of people have been coming down on the basic (vanilla, it's a flavor...) CSM because the cult squads are so special, but I think you do a good job pointing out that they really are still pretty good at a wide variety of roles. I think people especially forget just how good they are in assault with 2 ccws and all.

Overall a very balanced explanation of how standard CSM compared to their culty bretheren who obviously do their specific job well.

I think this article does a good job of comparing them in a vacuum.

What you have to realize, however, is that if you're making the investment to run Cult marines, you're also planning on running a list that has synergy with their strengths and weaknesses.

Noise marines are a good example here - and the one I'm most familiar with.

A noise marine has two main strengths - a bonus to their initiative (that can be gained with an icon), and their special weapons. This makes them a difficult unit to use to full effectiveness. They've got a shooty upgrade, and a fighty upgrade - much like grey knights.

So, your plan for using them needs to account for these things. In my army, I like running them in Land Raiders. This keeps my expensive troops well-protected early in the game, and lets them dismount when the time is right to unleash 18 S4 shots and an AP3 heavy flamer, followed by 30 S4 I5 attacks.

As such, my army is designed to emphasize both the strengths of the noise marines, while minimizing their weakness (protecting the high-cost marines by putting them in a land raider).

Now, if you're just throwing men on the field haphazardly, and with no regard for how they work with the other elements in your army, the more balanced aspect of the CSM does have its strengths. But, it's harder to kit them out in such a way that they gain as much synergy with the rest of the army.

Redbeard wrote:
In my army, I like running them in Land Raiders. This keeps my expensive troops well-protected early in the game, and lets them dismount when the time is right to unleash 18 S4 shots and an AP3 heavy flamer, followed by 30 S4 I5 attacks.

...for 475 points? I'll gladly take a CSM squad in Rhino and 2/3 of another one for that. That's 1/5 of your points at 2500 on one squad. I get that they're good, but I don't know about that investment.

I am going to agree with Redbeard, for the most part. I think there is a lot of "synergy" based strategy aspects that are not well discussed in your article. One unit vs. one other type of unit isn't a complete comparison, nor is it qualified with an overall "army" strategy. The meta-game is also very important when choosing troops. Basically, your article over-simplifies the troop choice decisions, as the decision relates to the composition and strategy of the army as a whole.

In the case of Redbeard's LR filled with Noise Marines, he has an aggressive shock and awe unit that should be able to handle most enemy infantry, a tank shock platform (not to be underestimated against horde armies), and a fairly durable scoring unit if in the LR, and a fairly durable contesting unit if outside of the LR and even if the LR is immobilized over the objective. All this and while in the LR, invuln to Loota spam. Its weakness is on the turn after the assault, where they are out in the open exposed to enemy fire or counter assault, but in this case no worse than "Vanilla" CSM. My assessment, is they kill more faster, making up for that point gap (Think of it this way, they can Assault 2 AND Assault in the same turn, which isn't alwasy the best choice depending on how far from the assault, but still a great option if the opponent made the mistake of having his PF/PK on the front (as in can't pull models from the front to try to escape assault). The current meta-game discussed on dakka now being mostly mechanized makes pulls at its effectiveness a bit, but its still a good multi-functional troop selection. Unfortunately, against Mech lists NM fall short due to lack of melta, or equivalents, a PF helps, but a PF + 2 Meltas is better.. agreed.

I still think your article is good, yet I think it falls short of the full picture.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another note: I actually do use Rhinos, instead of land raiders, for the most part, yet I have found that if I was going for an assault heavy army, I found that sometimes the reliance on Rhinos for assault delivery to fall short as Rhino's are easy to slow down in the current meta as well. Don't get me wrong, I love low cost transports that give my troops that extra protection they need. Yet on occasion its been a pain seeing my assault oriented unit fall out of the Rhino on turn 1, just too far away from the enemy to be effective. Just a note... like I said.. I used Rhinos

As an aside, Vanilla is a flavor all of it's own.

It isn't a base you work off of.

If you make chocolate ice cream, you don't make vanilla and then add chocolate. That'd be an absurd waste of time and ingredients.

You want chocolate ice cream then you make chocolate ice cream.

Just something to think about.

@Absolute: I guess assault has let me down too much to begin to rely on it anymore, even for just one unit. The turn after you wipe a squad is the worst feeling ever as you wait for the hate to come raining down. Granted that's somewhat controllable, and it's sometimes easy enough to to leave your guys spaced where not all can get their attacks, almost assuring the assault ends in your favor on their turn.

@Lagduf: I guess when I think of Vanilla, I think of Ice cream and adding different toppings. Should I change the title to Tofu marines? Or White Rice CSM? That's the second Vanilla comment...

I'll do some more in-depth answers tonight. On a broader note, I tend to use extremes. I'm mildly OCD and it factors to how I play, so if I seem to be utterly terrified of spending 1 point askew, I actually am. I'm also by no means trying to say that Cult Marines are useless or can't have synergy with things. Obviously if you need a jackhammer, a regular hammer won't do nearly as well. I still prefer lots of regular hammers though, with maybe one jackhammer in the mix.

Obviously if you need a jackhammer, a regular hammer won't do nearly as well. I still prefer lots of regular hammers though, with maybe one jackhammer in the mix.

I think you got it here

With all the above said, the current list I am building is all CSM, Chosen, and Havocs, no Cult and 7 Rhinos I am trying to make it competitive so I will def be putting the Vanilla, Tofu, CSM through the ringer Previously, I was playing mostly NM and PM with great results, but with the increase of meltas and plasma guns/cannons in my meta the utility of the PMs is dropping significantly. I am still liking the shootiness of the Noise Marines, but you're right they do cost 10 points more a piece for that shootiness and the list has to be built around their utility. Once I build the list and playtest a bit, I will post the list and results with more feedback.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:@dark: Thanks!

@DJ66: Thanks for the criticism, especially as well as you put it. I only have time to reply to your first point now as I'm at work, but what I meant was that a 10-man CSM squad is 150 and a 10-man 'zerk squad is 210, whereas IoK is half that difference. So it's kinda like paying for half the 'zerkerness (the +1 attack part) but not for the other parts (+1 WS, Furious Charge). Hope that makes sense. I also meant Objective taking as a defensive strategy on the Plaguers.

@Perturabo: I don't think Vanilla is an insulting word. CSM are like Tofu, you flavor them yourself, and they can be any flavor you want. And I figured my intro would convey that I am biased, but I tried to keep the subjectivity down nonetheless. I'd love to see an article opposing mine and I believe, between the two, a lot of players could put their own view together and benefit.

You are absolutely right. That's what I get for trying to do basic math at 1:30am. For comparison:

Icon vs. Cult Marine Break Even Points:

Icon of Slaanesh vs. Noise Marines (with no upgrades) = 4 Bodies
Icon of Slaanesh vs. Noise Marines (all with Sonic Blasters) = 2 Bodies
Icon of Khorne vs. Khorne Berzerkers = 5 Bodies
Icon of Nurgle vs. Plague Marines = ~6 Bodies
Icon of Tzeentch vs. Thousand Sons = ~1 Body

What this is saying, is that 4 Noise Marines are the exact same cost as 5 CSMs with an IoS. IoK and 5 CSM is the same as 5 Berzerkers and the IoN breaks even at 6 bodies. IoT's break even number is extremely low thanks to the sorceror each 1k sons squad must take costing more than one CSM with an IoT. And that calculation does not include the spell he must select!

What does this mean? Well a few things. Firstly, if you are fielding small cult squads, they are cheaper than their CSM brethern plus the approriate Icon. Unfortunately, most of these numbers are below the legal squad size limit . Secondly, if you field cult squads in numbers larger than break even point, you are paying extra points for Fearless and any other features C_t_U pointed out. Each individual needs to evaluate their force chart and figure out the points they are paying for these 'extra abilities' and determine if they are worth it or not. I'm going to go back and look at squads of ten and post my findings. I've chosen ten because that is the squad size I typically field and I would imagine that is pretty common. It should form a good basis for comparison if your squad numbers differ from 10.

Another thing we learn is which of these icons is relatively cheap compared to the equivalent cult squad. IoT seems like a bargain, while IoN doesn't seem so hot. Again, I'll do some more comparison on the true cost of these abilities and get back with you.

AbsoluteBlue wrote:

Obviously if you need a jackhammer, a regular hammer won't do nearly as well. I still prefer lots of regular hammers though, with maybe one jackhammer in the mix.

I think you got it here

With all the above said, the current list I am building is all CSM, Chosen, and Havocs, no Cult and 7 Rhinos I am trying to make it competitive so I will def be putting the Vanilla, Tofu, CSM through the ringer Previously, I was playing mostly NM and PM with great results, but with the increase of meltas and plasma guns/cannons in my meta the utility of the PMs is dropping significantly. I am still liking the shootiness of the Noise Marines, but you're right they do cost 10 points more a piece for that shootiness and the list has to be built around their utility. Once I build the list and playtest a bit, I will post the list and results with more feedback.

At 2500 I'm running 7 Rhinos (5x CSM, 1x Berzerkers, 1x Slaanesh Flamer Havoc), 5 Oblitz and 2 Lash Sorcs. It's done absolutely great for me so far. I never get tabled.

@DJ66: Something like that would useful for the article, so feel free to edit it in (assuming you can do that? First time trying this). If not I'll put it in there with credit to you.

Well, I've found something quite interesting! If you take the cost of 10 berzerkers or 10 noise marines or 10 plague marines and subtract the cost of the CSM squad with an equivalent icon, they all equal 30 points! That is too much of a coincidence to not be by design.

10 Thousand Sons on the other hand are paying 77 extra points at the 10 man level to have their 'unique abilities.' All sonic blaster equipped noise marines pay about the same, 80.

So, if you're going to take 10 bodies for a specific role (a role theoretically filled by cult troops) look at the difference in values and ask yourself "Is it worth paying x number of points for the truely unique aspects of these cult warriors?"

Note that this does not include upgrades (except the sonic blasters and sorceror without a spell). So again, compare the additional cost with units that will be fielded in an equivalent role on the battefield. This is what I referred to as an 'apples to apples' comparison earlier. Don't compare the cost of Berzerkers to CSMs with a lascannon because they're too different. I am interested to hear everyone else's opinions on the subject.

Average Wounds Calc (if they get outside the Rhino and not counting cover saves (mostly as applies to GEQ )

10 CSM (AC, PF, IoCG, 2x Melta) (220 Points)
24" 12" ASSAULT
GEQ 3.56 8.22 6.07
MEQ 0.89 2.89 1.78
TEQ 0.44 1.63 0.89
CARNIFEX 0.15 1.19 0.36

7 PM (PC, PF, 2x Melta) (221 Points)
24" 12" ASSAULT
GEQ 2.22 5.56 4.30
MEQ 0.56 2.22 1.28
TEQ 0.28 1.30 0.64
CARNIFEX 0.09 1.07 0.28

9 NM (9 SB, don't have BM stats handy) (225 Points) on the move
24" 12" ASSAULT
GEQ 8.00 8.00 5.33
MEQ 2.00 2.00 1.50
TEQ 1.00 1.00 0.75
CARNIFEX 0.33 0.33 0.25

9 NM (9 SB, don't have BM stats handy) (225 Points) not moving
24" 12" ASSAULT
GEQ 12.00 12.00 5.33
MEQ 3.00 3.00 1.50
TEQ 1.50 1.50 0.75
CARNIFEX 0.50 0.50 0.25

8 KB (SC, PF) (208 points) (Furious Charge)
24" 12" ASSAULT
GEQ 0.00 3.56 11.48
MEQ 0.00 0.89 4.70
TEQ 0.00 0.44 2.35
CARNIFEX 0.00 0.15 0.60

6 TS (AS, BoC) (223 points)
24" 12" ASSAULT
GEQ 2.78 5.00 2.07
MEQ 2.22 3.89 0.58
TEQ 0.65 0.93 0.29
CARNIFEX 0.54 0.63 0.21

So this only really looks at their offense, so take witha grain of salt both TS and PMs get a bump in value based on Defense, but just an idea of who gives what value against infantry.

Against mech, PM and CSM are near equivalent (both have 1 PF + 2x Melta), NM (i would need to factor in a BM, but its marginal against Mech, and TS only needs to factor in BoC (S8 AP1) so not a huge factor), in Assault against mech, in assault, KB take best in class, but then suffer greatly outside of assault.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
IMO, what is hurting some of the cult most is their lack of being able to take Meltas or Plasma Guns, specifically 1 Bolt of Change or 1 Blastmaster is not enough to reliably deal with the amount of Mech in the meta right now :( TS is really hurt since they can't get a PF either.

For me PM and CSM are great all around winners, with KB doing well when you need that in your face action


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also mind that I am looking at poorly supported troops, where once you include some Oblits and other tank kill it opens up the choices a little. However, I am paranoid about dreadnoughts and other walkers as tarpits/troop destroyers when the unit has no answer.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:

Redbeard wrote:
In my army, I like running them in Land Raiders. This keeps my expensive troops well-protected early in the game, and lets them dismount when the time is right to unleash 18 S4 shots and an AP3 heavy flamer, followed by 30 S4 I5 attacks.

...for 475 points? I'll gladly take a CSM squad in Rhino and 2/3 of another one for that. That's 1/5 of your points at 2500 on one squad. I get that they're good, but I don't know about that investment.

Not only is it 1/5th of my points at 2500, it's 1/3rd of my points at 1500...

At 1500, I've run two such squads, 2 lash princes, and a 5-man noise marine unit with blastmaster. I can pack a lot of power into my small units, meaning that I can focus that power easily. The army, as a whole, has synergy. Doom Sirens are insanely good, especially with Lash. Blastmasters units are good to sit in an objective back in your own deployment zone because they fire an AP3 blast 48". And Land raiders not only shield their passengers, but they're also big enough to block LoS to daemon princes... it all works together. It can be packed into a very small area, forcing an opponent to come at you in waves, that you have no problem defeating.

I'm not saying that CSM aren't good, or that your approach is wrong. What I'm saying is that Cult marines demand that a list be designed around their strengths. CSM are far more generalist. But, when you do design a list around the synergies that you can get from Cult marines, I believe it's stronger than the CSM approaches.

Just for Kicks, here is Redbeards squad:

10 NM (NC, DS, 9 SB) (275 Points) assaulting out of LR + (220+ points)
24" 12" ASSAULT
GEQ 8.00 13.00 6.22
MEQ 2.00 6.00 1.75
TEQ 1.00 1.67 0.88
CARNIFEX 0.33 0.36 0.29

So comparison points wize is close to 2 CSM Squads in Rhinos

Its actually a pretty close comparison.. but some key differences 2 CSM in Rhinos = 2 Scoring Units, 4KP, 4 Meltas!!!, 2 AV11 Shells vs 1 NM + LR = 1 Scoring Unit, 2KP, 2 Twinlinked LasCannons (that aren't getting shot much), 1 AV14 Shell. So in the current heavy mech + melta meta I would probably go for the 2 CSM Rhinos, against Horde meta I think I would like the NM + LR... hard call, but probably closer comparison than previously thought? *dunno/shrug*

Ok - this is a great discussion.

I think the article needs to be taken on its merits. It is a bare comparison of units is reliant on maths, and takes little to no account of tactics, psychology, or how good a general you are.

I have noticed a real 'disdain' for the vanilla CSM (for example http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Stelek%27s_Chaos_Space_Marine_Army_Analysis, where it was stated "Normal Chaos Space Marines...even with a mark, they aren't fearless. They don't get a 2nd heavy weapon option at 20 marines, so there's literally nothing going for this unit. Regular Space Marines are better, because they know no fear."

Now this on its own hurts as a dedicated black legion player! And I think this article is a great counterpoint.

Im building a large list this weekend (2,700points)! vs IG , and now that Ive read this article, my troops plan of attack:
* a Zerker squad in rhino for charging the IG gun-line (hit the largest squad hard, then try to weather the storm!) - supported by a squad of IoK CSM w Rhino,
* a squad of plauge marines + Rhino supported/supporting either a CSM squad (unsure of marks) or a large squad of havocs
* a 18 man squad of Thousand sons to 'walk the line' (Ive found they draw fire away from my other units very effectively)

With points to spare on other basic CSM's (units of 15? with IoCG?) to duck from cover to cover to get to the front (playing city fight), or to patch holes.

Previously, I may not have considered the benefits of the raw CSM - this article has brought them back to my attention.

I love CSM, Icon of chaos Glory is the new Mark of Chaos Undivided. Re-roll a fail leadership test is worth far more than the meger 10 points would imply. In my opinion a must have piece of wargear. I feel that CSM are far superior than their imperial counterparts because that close comabt weapon might as well be a +1 A on their profile. Only one heavy weapon? Why are you putting heavy weapons in a CSM squad when you can have 2 special weapons? Heavy weapons are better on chosen, havocs or Obliteraters.

As promised...

Response:
@DJ66: Point taken on the Thousand Sons. While they seem like an expensive tarpit, with their other role(s) that adds some value. I suppose it’s always good to have something that can sit in the open if absolute need be (maybe screening, giving other things a 4+ save if necessary?).
The Doom Siren is something that’s always looked cool to me, but the point you made about multiple flamers doing the job has always been the drawback for me. I’m a huge fan of way too many flamers in a unit because it’s so freaking destructive to any infantry, even high T stuff. I’d be scared to do the math on how many bolter (probably pistol at that range) shots it would take to inflict as many wounds as a flamer shot (and at 5 points? Geez).

@Perturabo: About cheese-less burgers, that’s the Hamburger Deluxe at Jack in the Box for me. I LOVE that one without cheese. On to the points…

1.At least one or two scoring troops shold be able to function at range or you will suffer hardcore in objective games. I dunno how fun that’s supposed to be. On top of that, you won’t stop your opponent’s shooting until you get face to face with them. That’s 2 turns, or 3 without Lash (see: pure World Eaters), where all of the opponent’s shooting is intact. At least some of that needs to get gunned down on the approach to balance things out.
2.Unless you want to get tar pitted against Dreads, take it. I’m not saying it will always happen, just sucks when it does. In a 10-man Slaanesh squad, you pay 2 points for each model to have +1 init. Ignoring one, you’re still only paying 2.222222 for each one which is very much worth it. Plus that tank killing ability, it’s priceless.
3.I just meant that in terms of if you didn’t already have it dedicated as a Plasma or Flamer squad, throw the Melta where you can. It’s certainly awesome by itself, but about 50x awesomer than nothing.
4.It depends. I mean in terms of trying to own a squad. Because I charged all of my units in one turn, my CSM have killed a Seer Council on bikes. Cult marines wouldn’t have been able to do so because I would have had fewer
5.Yes. Although to fill points in really casual games (combat patrols in campaigns mainly) I’ve taken Havoc Launcher-Rhinos that sit back and fire all game to varying degrees of success.
6.Hence the phrase, “where another icon is not present.” Same as the Melta guns. Might as well if you’ve got nothing else going on, it’s certainly worth it. Side note, in one of the foreign codices they call it “Absolute Chaos.” That’s so much cooler. I’ve got my Lightning Claw bits ordered to make my Slaanesh Termi squad right now Got them with what I made from selling my Lash Prince at the Bizarre Bazaar.
7.Heh, the 5 points for an extra WD or Imm result is really handy sometimes. Every time you take Extra Armour, a CSM has to stay home, and that’s no fun, right? Combi-weapons are sometimes worth it, but most of the time I prefer to put the Combi on the squad champ instead.
8.Heh, yup. Rhino 101. I found that you can always do it when you wonder if you should, but can’t do it after it was a bad call not to.
9.Heh, I wrote this more from the gamer standpoint for sure. I play gamehammer and some play fluffhammer. To each his own.
10.Not in this codex 15 points of 3+, 2 base attack, all 4’s goodness is nothing to be ignored in great number.

@Redbeard: Synergy is definitely one of the major aspects of an armies performance, and I think more troops allows for more synergy if that makes any sense. Each strategy has it’s own strengths and weaknesses obviously, but the more control you have of the field (like in chess or dreamblade if anyone remembers it) and the more resources you have (like any game, but specifically Yu-Gi-Oh!, MtG or the Pokemon series of video games), the more you have control to influence. We can’t control everything and even our uberness will fail us at some point (below average rolls), but the more chances we have to influence something, the more likely we are to succeed at least once. Short and sweet: More attacks means more Crits.

@DJ66 Don’t forget on Tzeentch that it only gives a 5+ to start, so dunno how you would calculate that exactly.

Everyone, thanks for the numbers! If you can’t edit those in I’ll try to put them in pretty form and throw them in. I’ve run rough versions of those numbers at random points, and I remember that in their niche, cult squads seem to win, but suffer badly in one or more other areas. We certainly have some more comprehensive data from AbsoluteBlue now though The reason I’m posting in such large blocks is that I post while I’m at work and the only internet access I have at home is on my mobile.

I had the numbers for their effectiveness vs various armour values, but I got lazy :( I would also like to get up some defense statistics as well. If anything, it helps me understand how GW comes up with their point costs and how they value the statline, specials, etc.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote: I’d be scared to do the math on how many bolter (probably pistol at that range) shots it would take to inflict as many wounds as a flamer shot

That really depends on your opponent's spacing, more than any complex math. With marines, you need 3/2 * X bolt shots (either bolter or bolt pistol), to get as many hits as you you get covering X models with a flame template (i.e. if you cover 6 models with the template, you need 9 bolt shots to get the same number of hits).

Heavy flamers make the math slightly more complex, and doom sirens just wreck units more than any bolter or flamer could.

You say two flamers are as effective vs. marines? Let's say you cover six with your template. Doom Siren expects to kill 4. Each flamer expects to kill one. So two flamers means two dead marines (on average).

@Redbeard: Synergy is definitely one of the major aspects of an armies performance, and I think more troops allows for more synergy if that makes any sense.

It doesn't, not really. Synergy can be found in ways other than "more of the same". What you're thinking of is redundancy, which is also a valuable asset to a list in a wargame.

Each strategy has it’s own strengths and weaknesses obviously, but the more control you have of the field (like in chess or dreamblade if anyone remembers it) and the more resources you have (like any game, but specifically Yu-Gi-Oh!, MtG or the Pokemon series of video games), the more you have control to influence.

But we're not playing Chess. In Chess, the combat resolution is simple: attacker always wins. A pawn can take a queen. A knight can take a rook. That's not true in 40k. If you can destroy all weapons over S8 in your opponent's army, your land raiders become invincible. Likewise, control is not about where a model is, or how many of them, but rather, where a model can exert it's force. An army of rhinos full of meltaguns has a control radius of roughly 20 inches (26 for the half-strength shots), and can move 12" closer each turn. An army of lascannons and blastmasters has a control radius of 48".

We can’t control everything and even our uberness will fail us at some point (below average rolls), but the more chances we have to influence something, the more likely we are to succeed at least once. Short and sweet: More attacks means more Crits.

True that, but you have to be able to make those attacks at all. CSM in a rhino can drive up, hop out and fire roughly 20 shots at 12". Noise Marines in a land raider can drive up and fire 20 shots 24", or, better yet, 20 shots at 6" and then make another 30 attacks when they charge. That's considerably more chances to influence something...

Again, I'm not saying that the CSM-in-rhinos strategy is poor, or even that it lacks synergy. I'm saying that if you do a unit-to-unit comparison, CSM will have some edge over cult marines in each comparison, because of their generalist nature, whether that edge be cost, or overall utility. But that's not the whole story, and the reason people take cult marines is to fill roles in their armies that those cult marines excel at.

Redbeard wrote:

Each strategy has it’s own strengths and weaknesses obviously, but the more control you have of the field (like in chess or dreamblade if anyone remembers it) and the more resources you have (like any game, but specifically Yu-Gi-Oh!, MtG or the Pokemon series of video games), the more you have control to influence.

But we're not playing Chess. In Chess, the combat resolution is simple: attacker always wins. A pawn can take a queen. A knight can take a rook. That's not true in 40k. If you can destroy all weapons over S8 in your opponent's army, your land raiders become invincible. Likewise, control is not about where a model is, or how many of them, but rather, where a model can exert it's force. An army of rhinos full of meltaguns has a control radius of roughly 20 inches (26 for the half-strength shots), and can move 12" closer each turn. An army of lascannons and blastmasters has a control radius of 48".

We can’t control everything and even our uberness will fail us at some point (below average rolls), but the more chances we have to influence something, the more likely we are to succeed at least once. Short and sweet: More attacks means more Crits.

True that, but you have to be able to make those attacks at all. CSM in a rhino can drive up, hop out and fire roughly 20 shots at 12". Noise Marines in a land raider can drive up and fire 20 shots 24", or, better yet, 20 shots at 6" and then make another 30 attacks when they charge. That's considerably more chances to influence something...

Again, I'm not saying that the CSM-in-rhinos strategy is poor, or even that it lacks synergy. I'm saying that if you do a unit-to-unit comparison, CSM will have some edge over cult marines in each comparison, because of their generalist nature, whether that edge be cost, or overall utility. But that's not the whole story, and the reason people take cult marines is to fill roles in their armies that those cult marines excel at.

I agree with your view on Cult troops and why people take them. But (I can't believe I'm defending this) I think you're over simplifying chess. I get your point about 'attacker always wins.' But if I take away your bishops and queen, my pieces with diagonal movement are essentially invincible too. It is such a classic game that it is analagous to every other game made since (which given how old chess is that is A LOT of games). And control in chess has always been about where a piece can exert its influence; just like your example. Controlling the middle of the field is key. That's true in 40k as well. 40k is more complex, because there are more phases to each turn and more interactions with the environment (like moving anywhere instead of predefined positions, terrain, your opponent's stat lines etc.) there are more ways to 'control' an area. If humans have proven anything over the past 2000 years, it's that self serving interests drive actions, and chess is incredibly complex.

@Redbeard: I get all that you're saying except one thing. In hyperbole-land I have a 10-man squad that puts out 50 shots a turn at 48". The other guy has two ten-man squads that put out 20 at 24" each. We both get templated and lose 5 guys. Who is worse off? Me losing guys matters a lot less, and very few armies will reliably kill/slow that many rhinos in one turn, especially at range. Orks take this to the extreme obviously, but the same principle applies. The difference with Chaos is that all your guys have 3+ saves and T4.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:@Redbeard: I get all that you're saying except one thing. In hyperbole-land I have a 10-man squad that puts out 50 shots a turn at 48". The other guy has two ten-man squads that put out 20 at 24" each. We both get templated and lose 5 guys. Who is worse off? Me losing guys matters a lot less...

That's right, when you pay more for guys, it hurts more when they die. Hence the need to use some sort of tactics on the battlefield to ensure that your guys aren't hit by a template...
If more bodies were always superior, then orks and (now) guard would always win. But they don't. In the case of berserkers and noise marines, you're paying more points per body without an increase in survivability. This means that you must be making up quality somewhere else. The skill in running such an army is in bring that additional quality to bear.

Nice read, though, don't thousand sons have 5+ invulnerable save, as mark fo tzeentch gives 5+ invulnerable save to any model what doesn't have one, or, increases a existing one by +1.

No, Thousand Sons definitely have a 4+ invuln. But you are right that the mark added to a regular CSM will only give a 5+.

The 4+ is why they are so expenseive!

Batrep using Vanilla CSM

I lost, but probably 1 bad play and 2 HORRIBLE ROLLS!! Read turn 5 and see how bad.

Doesn't really say much about Vanilla vs. Cult, since poor test, but was fun game.

Good stuff. Sucks about your luck I'm taking Vanilla CSM to ArdBoyz so I'll try and do some good reports off that.