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@Droze: Thanks for the reply, it's very helpful. If you actually know business, then you stand a much better shot at making it.

I've just seen so many game stores fail due to not remembering that they're supposed to be stores, that I am kinda skeptical about gamers saying they want to run a store.

The best game stores who stuck it out were well-managed, and they focused on the business side with only a little gaming space on the side or in the back (1 gaming table & 1 card table). This kept most of the space earning money. Also, a schedule of regular events keeps people coming back.

The fastest closing stores were set up like clubhouses with lots of gaming tables, big TV, and nice sofa, but relatively little product moving.

Product-wise, I'd pick a few known sellers (e.g. 40k, Magic, Pokemon, Yugioh) and build around them. I wouldn't bother with LAN gaming, due to high startup cost and low utilization.

Location, for me. Tired of driving miles to get a game.

I want a dedicated gaming area. I don't want to mingle with customers while they're browsing the inventory unless it's a very big space.

I want food and drinks. If I'm hungry I want to be able to get a burrito or something. If I'm thirsty I want to be able to grab a soda. Unless you're in a small town then you'll have a hard time opening up a game store where you're not close to a convenience store or a few restaurants.

LAN areas are great. Once again, though, it needs to be separate from the retail area. If you're running computers then you need to keep the computers reasonably up to date. If you're running an Xbox type LAN area then I'd probably sell video games as a pretty big part of the overall concept.

If you have gaming tables then make sure that you provide terrain. If you're good at building terrain then it's not difficult to have very durable terrain that still looks good. Make it easy to repair or replace and you won't have to worry about stuff getting broken.

If you're focusing on stereotypical "hardcore games" then you won't have to worry too much on location. Just make sure that it's in a decent neighborhood (ie your customers don't have to worry about their car getting broken into while they're inside playing a game) with good parking and they will come to you. Just make sure that you advertise in the right places. Your customers will find you.

Have a good painting/modeling area. You're bound to attract some good painters who will in turn attract people who want to improve their painting. Back when I used to paint a lot at my FLGS I'd always end up in the front of the store buying new models just because I had finished what I came to paint.

Inventory, inventory, inventory. Ideally I like to walk into my FLGS and see everything that I could possibly want on the shelf (or at least I want them to look full enough that I just assume that that's the case). If you've got people hanging out and painting a lot then those people will end up buying a lot of stuff on a whim when they're in the mood to paint.

A nice, frequently updated website. This is super important to me, and irks me to no end with the local gaming stores around here. I usually find their websites before their B&M location. I would like to see an up-to-date calendar of events that's FULL (to prove that it's an established gaming location, and not just some fly-by-night CCG hole in the wall). It also needs to have store hours and a number that directly links to a friendly rep. Nothing worse than calling a number only to hear a disconnect tone.

I think that a good gaming store should have plenty of lighting. It should be clean, and have organized shelves. The problem I see most gaming stores suffer from is that they try and stuff every inch with too many "sorta related" products. Graphic novels stuffed next to RPG manuals next to codexes annoy me.

Plenty of tables with chairs for gaming.

Decor. And I don't mean the cardboard cut-out of Spiderman you stole from the local movie theater. I mean actual decorations. They should all be gaming related, but they shouldn't all be posters and promotional items. I had a gaming store that decorated with well-placed ambient lighting. They also used fake heraldry in places. Just something other than bare white walls and foam-tile ceiling with florescent lighting would be really nice.


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Finally, a community bulletin where sales, offers, and requests could be posted. Also, for recruiting into gaming groups or clubs. Right next to the register would be perfect.

I'm pretty much on page with the friendly, local folks to be honest. Aside from that, I look for a store which is relatively easy to get to and stocked with what I want or at least willing to order. Other things like adequate space and good tables are nice, but it really comes down to having a descent group of folks to get together with.

JohnHwangDD wrote:@Droze: Thanks for the reply, it's very helpful. If you actually know business, then you stand a much better shot at making it.

I've just seen so many game stores fail due to not remembering that they're supposed to be stores, that I am kinda skeptical about gamers saying they want to run a store.

I wouldn't even be considering this as a viable idea if I didn't have some inkling of a clue what I was doing on the business end, and, unlike some gamers (not all, but certainly the overly vocal stereotypes), I'm much more about the social aspect of gaming than the actual gaming part of it, and my main reason for even letting it be anything other than an entertaining hypothetical is because I see a fair amount of potential in the idea.

I don't mind working 12-18 hours a day for what could be seen as obscenely low pay for the first few years, and I know that the risk of failure is high, but self employment has been a goal of mine since before I even discovered Magic: the Gathering, and has remained with me from my fledgling gamer days all the way to my reentry to gaming.

Product-wise, I'd pick a few known sellers (e.g. 40k, Magic, Pokemon, Yugioh) and build around them. I wouldn't bother with LAN gaming, due to high startup cost and low utilization.

That was the initial intent, and while the LAN gaming aspect of it is certainly a goal, eventually, it's never been a deal-breaker for us, more of an idea we've been tossing about at the moment. I've seen LAN centers be fairly successful, and if nothing else, it does get more bodies through the door than would otherwise be coming in.

I disagree with that LAN center idea myself. I think it really doesn't have a place in a FLGS unless your are going to dedicate a seperate closed off area to it. Plus you have the Keeping up with the tech problem. Here's the biggest part IMO I don't know anyone who is into LAN gaming who doesn't already have a rig of their own and connectivity to the web.

I think this would be better hashed out as a couple of workstations that people can get their emails, myspace, facebook, etc...

If nothing else Offer wireless APs and let people bring their Laptops and mobile devices.

Other than that the best thing you could have is a snack bar. Gamers get hungry and thirsty and instead of leaving your store to get it they would stay and spend their money for your food.

Usdi

LANs or a bunch of 360s will be the death of your store. Huge mistake, don't do it. Very expensive for you, and your customers can do it cheaper at home. The equipment gets tore up, your power bill goes up, and it drives away people there to buy and play games. If LAN shops / Xbox renta-shops were a good idea, you would see them as a standalone business- they are very rare because that is a tough business to make money in.

Stay away from mixing video/computer games! That stuff has killed a LOT of formerly healthy game stores in the last 5 years.


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You need a lawyer and an accountant if you are serious about making it as a business. Having non-gamers in the mix also helps because inevitably you and your buddies will see the store as a hobby, not a business.

Don't overschedule. There are a couple stores that sold GW products and other games. They pushed everything but CCG's out the door because every day except Wednesday was slated for some kind of CCG. Advertise too. I just found out that one store was going out of business and didn't even know it was 30 minutes away. Oh well I got a discount on some good stuff.

hancock.tom wrote:LANs or a bunch of 360s will be the death of your store. Huge mistake, don't do it. Very expensive for you, and your customers can do it cheaper at home. The equipment gets tore up, your power bill goes up, and it drives away people there to buy and play games. If LAN shops / Xbox renta-shops were a good idea, you would see them as a standalone business- they are very rare because that is a tough business to make money in.

Stay away from mixing video/computer games! That stuff has killed a LOT of formerly healthy game stores in the last 5 years.

I've had several local game store owners tell me this exact same thing, and I've noticed that the game shops that are still around are the ones without video games, big TVs, and that sort of thing.


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OK, the one exception I know of is Sci-Fi City in Orlando, but I haven't been a regular there since it was Enterprise 1701 ten years ago.

Cleanliness is good.

Keeping up inventory.

A separate gaming area from selling area (this makes it easier to stay open later).

Needs to be some-place to get eats within walking distance.

Regularly scheduled gaming.

Friendly staff.

If you guys are serious you should also check out

http://www.gama.org/

they have some usefull information.

I'm in a similar situation to Mattlov - my FLGS is pretty damned near perfect, especially because it has good proper PCs along the wall rather than 360s. I don't spend much time there, but painted there for a few hours yesterday and am thinking of spending today down there.... got nothing else to do but paint.

The website is pretty basic, but the events table is updated. G-Con, local annual tournament 1750-40k/2250-WH run by the store and associated Dogs of War club, is coming up next month, booked at the local worker's club meaning there'll be a bar .

AFAIK the store is owned by a group of local hobbyists and computer guys from various backgrounds, but run by two ladz who aren't pushy at all, and mad keen hobbyists themselves. This year there have already been several all-ages 1000-1150 events with prizes and tournament composition, making for pretty good turnout.

No complaints here.

Also it's in the middle of town, close to parking, food and services, but far enough from local pubs to stay open when it has cause to. Clean, great boxed inventory (I bought a box of Chaos Knights and two days later they were replaced on the shelf - I almost bought them again for a laugh, but I needed Orks).

Cleanliness is the most important factor for me. There's a shop 2 miles away, but I drive downtown to play instead because everything at the local shop is stained with cheeto grease and soda stains, and the store is populated by smelly, smelly people. Coincidentally (or perhaps not?), this store's patrons all have the maturity of 12 year olds, 12-year-olds and greasy, middle-aged neckbeards alike.

...which leads to my second most important factor: populace. The regulars at the store I normally frequent are mature, hygienic, well-adjusted, (almost normal people. These people also know HOW TO PLAY THE GOD DAMN GAME - not just in that they know the rules, but that they realize it's only a game. When beardy, tournament-ready lists are called for, that's what are used. When that isn't the case... they aren't. This is stark contrast to the more local store filled with aforementioned mental midgets, all with their own variations on Kantor, 3 Land Raiders, bla de bla fething blah ad nauseum. It's not that these lists are cheesy, as they aren't... it's just that they're exactly what you'd expect 12-year-olds to take, and these lists are supposed to be cheesy even if they're really fething stupid instead (because that's the point of the game, especially when you're 12 - win at all costs).

Third is stock. The further store even orders specialist stuff from GW - if I feel like buying another couple imperial cruisers or something, I don't have to order directly from GW. The other store ran out of Marine codices the morning the book came out.

Fourth, finally, is playing room. You can probably guess who has the edge there, too.

Basically, my local store is a shithole.

If I come across bitter or elitist... well, it's because I am.

Iorek wrote:
I've had several local game store owners tell me this exact same thing, and I've noticed that the game shops that are still around are the ones without video games, big TVs, and that sort of thing.

Not to besmirch anyone specifically, but this isn't really surprising to me. As a kind of closet gamer I found the most distasteful part of going to my FLGS to be the regulars that were always around. Some of them were cool guys who knew that there are boundaries to relationships, while others fit right into the social misfit/gamer/outcast category. Unfortunately it was the latter category that tended to be the most vocal. It was like the store became a kind of comfort zone for them, and they treated it like their home. The more amenities this home had, the more time they spent there. The more time they spent there, the fewer customers came in.

What this boils down to is: If you want to run a clubhouse type place you need to find a way of policing the clientele. This can be something as simple as setting an age requirement for being in the store, to something as complicated as getting a liquor license (I've always been intrigued by the concept of a LAN/board game/CCG/bar combination). Or you could simply apply your razor wit to anyone unfortunate enough to raise your ire; channeling Randal Graves from Clerks.

The games store described in the OP actually sounds like the one I game at. There's an apartment building right behind it, a gas station next door, some fast food places across the street and pizza places within a couple miles, and the place itself is rather large with a smaller room in the back for PC gaming. And sometimes I've seen people bring in consoles and play Street Fighter 4 on the projector screen in the back.

Cards, miniatures, video games, easy access to food and if you have an apartment behind the store you could walk there and back in five minutes.

dogma wrote:

Iorek wrote:
I've had several local game store owners tell me this exact same thing, and I've noticed that the game shops that are still around are the ones without video games, big TVs, and that sort of thing.

Not to besmirch anyone specifically, but this isn't really surprising to me. As a kind of closet gamer I found the most distasteful part of going to my FLGS to be the regulars that were always around. Some of them were cool guys who knew that there are boundaries to relationships, while others fit right into the social misfit/gamer/outcast category. Unfortunately it was the latter category that tended to be the most vocal. It was like the store became a kind of comfort zone for them, and they treated it like their home. The more amenities this home had, the more time they spent there. The more time they spent there, the fewer customers came in.

What this boils down to is: If you want to run a clubhouse type place you need to find a way of policing the clientele. This can be something as simple as setting an age requirement for being in the store, to something as complicated as getting a liquor license (I've always been intrigued by the concept of a LAN/board game/CCG/bar combination). Or you could simply apply your razor wit to anyone unfortunate enough to raise your ire; channeling Randal Graves from Clerks.

Dogma is right on this one. The hobby attracts socially destructive folk like flies to a carcass sometimes, which can drive away new customers and turn your establishment into a hangout for the hygenically challenged with boundary/courtesy issues. I've also seen that a former gamestore, which is now out of business, was half-half tabletop game establishment with tables, and half computer/x-box cafe. The hordes of noisy, disrespectful irresponsible children caused all sorts of headaches for everyone in the store.

Run your store like a business with courtesy and respect, while expecting the same from your customers. You aren't their caretakers or babysitters; if they are going to use your facilities they need to be respectful adults. And don't treat the store like a personal toybox. If you can't separate your business from your hobbies and dip into business funds to buy mandollies or pokemans cards for yourself, you will fail as a business.

The most successful gaming stores I've come across just aren't run like the stereotypical gaming store (with the exception of the friendly staff, I've had good experiences that way). Open spaces, low shelves, high traffic, well lit and with a manageable amount of stock on the shelves.

The bright, open store defeats the traditional 'Nerd Cave' idea of a game shop and provides a place where parent's aren't concerned about bringing their children. The bright lights and cleanliness also seem to encourage the unwashed gamer crowd to make their purchases and leave.

Inventory wise, you pretty much have to have the stock, or a way to get it quickly. This is the knife edge for a lot of stores though since you need enough stock to 'have' the common purchases when customers come looking, but you also need to be stocked lightly enough that your customer's don't have to dig for things. Having stock people can't efficiently navigate and search through is as bad as bare shelves out front and a full stock room.

On the LAN gaming side, I've seen stores do it and I've seen stores avoid it like the plague. For the ones who do it, the successful ones I've seen are the ones who regularly schedule events and the like to ensure their kit stays in paid use as much as possible. Even these folks though, I've not seen carry much in the way of games for sale. That, I attribute to (rightly or wrongly) the fact that it's tough for a small business to compete against a Wal-Mart or EBGames.

The bright, open store defeats the traditional 'Nerd Cave' idea of a game shop and provides a place where parent's aren't concerned about bringing their children. The bright lights and cleanliness also seem to encourage the unwashed gamer crowd to make their purchases and leave.

Inventory wise, you pretty much have to have the stock,

From 21 years experience running stores, the above statements are dead on. Bright and clean with lots of inventory makes a huge difference.

Having stock people can't efficiently navigate and search through is as bad as bare shelves out front and a full stock room.

If you don't have enough shelf space for everything I would put out a Catalog spot at the section (say for the Gamesworkshop part) that shows what you have in the back but don't have the space to show. And make it noticable! I would do the same for other major game systems as well, like Flames of War, and that game with Warjacks. The store I used go to the most often has a seperate lockable gaming section so that anyone who gets in before the store closes can play to whatever hour they want as it has a seperate door with an auto unlock from the inside lock thing. It also has three different vending machines for snacks, drinks, and light meals. THe only problem is the manager is an ass. He frequently calls his customers retards/stupid and gets in rows with them. He even yelled at me for cleaning up his bathroom, (some one had peed all over the floor so I wiped it up, but I put the paper towel in the wrong throwout box and that rather pissed him off) so I don't go there as much anymore as there are friendlier ones down the street a few blocks. But nicety is a major factor

Factors I would want in a FLGS if such a thing existed in West Australia:
Bright lights, open spaces and white walls, as above! The two places that could be classed as a gaming store around here are GW (black walls and high shelves) and a place that is quite literally decorated like a dungeon. And, as above, the clientele attracted are unwashed antisocial teens.

Some kind of incentive to buy from you rather than online. Can be earnt if the store is Friendly enough, but I find myself getting stuff online for 30% or more off the cost of buying locally... (Aus GW products are more expensive even given exchange rates, so I save a lot buying from the UK).

Good terrain. I'd be much more likely to come to your store and spend money if I have a large variety of decent terrain that I can get a game on in relatively short order.

Food: You've obviously already thought of it, but you'll make a lot of money off snacks and drinks.

CCG: Not that I collect them, but for the amount of space they take up, why wouldn't you have them?

Decent stock and knowledge.
A GOOD online store.

This is really shaping up to be quite the informative thread... I do, indeed, want to thank you all for coming forward on this, it's really helping our initial market research, as far as getting info from the socioeconomic group we're looking at goes.

As far as the online ordering goes, we've actually gotten to discussing that, and it's already a given. It'll let us hit customers we wouldn't ordinarily have access to, though we're still working on figuring out if we want to deal with that in-house or if we just want to set something up through FeeBay to reduce the headache and potential security issues of hosting our webstore on our own site.

Speaking of our Interweb presence, what are the thoughts on having a shop forum?

Deff Dread red Edition wrote:Well thinking of it now necros is right about the Xbox lan center thing,it will cost alot to keep going not to mention that one of them might suffer the red ring of death.Also I can't state enough how much I dislike pushy sellers,if I come in and am swamped by eight people each trying to get me to buy a different product I will walk out and leave!

We got the RROD once. The key is to first check the fan above the motherboard. We discovered they had put very little and very cheap thermo paste and the chip was burning up from no heat escaping. We just bought some new paste and put it on and it was fine.

In a FLGS I look for locality. I won't be going to a store that's 2 hours from my house very often. I'll post more things soon.



-Orkishly

To add some feminine perspective to whats been said already:

Bathrooms, clean, usable bathrooms. Not all shops have room for 2 bathrooms. But I cant count the number of times at a tourney I wouldnt use the restroom because some slow thinks thier scatter dice and template weapons are bodily functions.

Another- dont be afraid to boot someone out of the store if they cant behave. THe lil rich kid might buy alot of crap, but his tantrums are likely to keep other people from coming back.

Dont be afraid to crank the AC in the summer. I know it ups the utility bills. But when you get 20 or 30 people in a building, and dont keep the AC working...it turns into a locker room and the hygeine impaired customers start gettin all nurgly....

And my last rant. When a girl walks in the store- dont automatically treat her like shes looking for her boyfreind or kid

Mistress of minis wrote:And my last rant. When a girl walks in the store- dont automatically treat her like shes looking for her boyfreind or kid

You say this like I haven't managed to convert girlfriends into this lovely cult of ours... the way I see it, it should prove to be quite amusing if we actually wrangle a larger-than-average base of female gamers in, particularly for FNM and wargaming nights.

Thing like that tend to throw some guys so far off their game it ceases to be funny...


And tosses it straight into the realm of hilarity.

Dronze wrote:nobody under 15 without a parent, as none of us cares to be dealing with a babysitting situation, and that leaves us a fair amount of leeway in the liability department.

Children left unattended will be given a free puppy and a double shot of espresso.
Seriously tho, you're shooting yourself in the foot on this one.

jgemrich wrote:take a deposit of $10. If it is returned all in one piece in the box then the players get their deposit back. If not.... Oh well.

Horrible, horrible, horrible idea. This would be a HUGE deterrent for gamers to come in for open gaming. Things happen, terrain gets broken. The cost needs to be considered, but by no means should it be put onto the gamers who are ultimately your customers.

JohnHwangDD wrote:The best game stores who stuck it out were well-managed, and they focused on the business side with only a little gaming space

Yes, it is a business first and foremost and therefore sales need to be the primary focus. No, little gaming space does not allow you to properly support the product you're selling. Gamers are going to want to go somewhere where they can game and buy, not just buy. If all you're doing is selling the product without ample support then you're going to lose out to the guy down the street who is selling the exact same thing AND has the facilities to use it all.

for the store to be there, decent open and closing hours,
and for me ill travel as far as i need to go to your store if i enjoy your company, you have what i want (i generally dont like buying online), and i can spend a little time there talking playing and having a good time.

thats why i go to a store about an hour bus ride away and not to the local games workshop up the hill...

-SKB

Dronze wrote:
nobody under 15 without a parent, as none of us cares to be dealing with a babysitting situation, and that leaves us a fair amount of leeway in the liability department.

Ok, question here....Are you serious about a opening a business?? Or is this just going to be some clubhouse for you and your buddies?

I'm really being harsh here for a reason: That's a stupid idea that will lose you so much money it'll kill you before you even get started. It cuts off a huge segment of the population that will by games, and alienates a chunk of your customer base. It gets in the way of growing your store beyond a clubhouse level.

Liability?? What liability? You have insurance for that. That's the main reason to get Insurance.

Babysitting? Maybe. But babysitters get paid. I run all day painting and modeling classes and have moms dropping kids off to hang out all weekend. Most kids get given 10 bucks for lunch and 20-50 bucks to spend at the store. I work my ass off to provide 'babysitting'. But then I'm doing it to stay in business.)

Seriously, kids under 15 have no money. Parents of those kids have more money than any other demographic you can look at. They spend money on their kids continuously. I have parents give their kids 200.00 a week in the summer to hang out and play at my shop, buying tons of paints and models. It's cheaper than 300.00 a week soccer camp, and the kid wants to play warhammer, not run around in the sun. At Christmas and Birthdays those parents come in and buy tons of stuff. If the kids have been coming into the shop all year, guess what they want for presents at the holidays?

In the end, you also build new gamers. I now have a big group in the 16-22 age group, that have multiple armies, play in GT's and paint very, very well. They grew up doing it with the support of the shop. Their mothers still thank me for my support, and support me by encouraging other mothers to bring in their kids to learn the games and painting.

Don't cut your throat out of ignorance. Don't build a clubhouse. There is already a 25% turnover of gaming stores every year. Don't add to it.

Go join the Games Resource Forums. You can get a huge amount of info from long term store owners. http://forums.delphiforums.com/gamestore/messages?msg=936.1

mikhaila wrote:Or is this just going to be some clubhouse for you and your buddies?

When I originally asked this question, he claimed he was actually planning on a business...

I also still think he's looking at it more like a clubhouse.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

mikhaila wrote:Or is this just going to be some clubhouse for you and your buddies?

When I originally asked this question, he claimed he was actually planning on a business...

I also still think he's looking at it more like a clubhouse.

Data points, my friend, data points.

Business savvy and the depth of knowledge held by other shop owners are not the same thing, and, as I've stated before, we're gathering all the information we can get so we can have that foundation, nothing here is set in stone, but a lot of this information is being noted, read, and reread so we can have an idea of what the gamers want as well as what pitfalls to watch out for in our planning.

What you see from me here, in this casual setting, is in stark contrast to what's going on while we're actually hammering out our ideas and getting them on paper. Structuring, restructuring, and picking apart our own ideas looking for flaws and issues, reading up on small business ownership to fill in the gaps, trying to figure out which/how many programs we want to look into for an experienced mentor, even talking to local business owners on the more mundane topics.

We are serious about doing this, you're just not seeing the full scope of it here because that would otherwise stifle open conversation on the subject matter.

1) No age limit for the gaming room unless you can demonstrate a legal need for it e.g. smoking or drinking going on back there. You have employees and they/you should be keeping an eye on what's going on in the store.
2) Open your store later in the day and stay open later into the evening. Have a good stock of items available. Get in some of the special releases.
3) Sell stuff besides GW. The successful store in my area sells games, cards, comics, and collectibles. It's also reasonably clean(including the bathroom) and brightly lit.
4) I'd avoid a LAN like the plague.