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CT GAMER wrote:

beefHeart wrote:So it's elitist to expect folks to at least assemble their models or not to cheat? I don't even think it's too much to want only to play games with people who put the same time and effort in their armies... It may even motivate a few to step it up a bit...

I see you're in CT. Later this summer My Club will be hosting a small SteamRoller event in Northern NJ... You should come bring a few friends even. And yes, their armies will need to be painted....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

malfred wrote:Legs on bases is a bit extreme.

It's the reason why, three years after the event, my friend refuses to play Warmachine or Hordes. I'm talking about a guy who was like #27 on the PP message boards. He is an awesome painter and pushed to get ALL his stuff done for the tourney... Looks across the table at not even assembled cheese army then turns to Matt Wilson, who is standing behind him, and sighs... I don't he has played a game since...

Refusing to play someone who doesn't paint even though the company/event doesn't require it IS elitist. It is perfectly your right to do so, but its still elitist.

I would never use assembled models, and I try to always use painted models, heck I don't use terrain in one game that is identifiable as belonging to another game or setting (no Imperial buildings on my WM tables, etc.) but I don't refuse to play people over such things unless they are TFG.

You got me all wrong... In the friendly setting I don't really care but at the competitive level there needs to be higher standards... If that makes me elitist... I can live with that... There are plenty of good systems out there if you don't want to paint anything... AT-43 for example. MonPoc even. But, If you are going to play a game where the models come unassembled and unpainted you should at least assemble and paint then...

I'm okay with unpainted figs at a national level tourney. Unassembled seems OTT. But, my guess is, that it was the 'pre-release Gen Con exclusive', and PP didn't want to discourage it's use in stomping on people (even though, imho, they should have required it to be fully assembled).

When was this tournament held? If it was a while back, it was likely during a time when PP could afford to turn away anyone. Nowadays, I do recall many steamroller and such events require assembled minis.

If you want to play in tournaments that require fully painted lists, then restrict yourself to Hardcore. That's one of the primary reasons for its existence.

There's no reason to look down on others who choose to not paint their armies, especially when none of the rules for the event require it. To do so is incredibly arrogant. This is no different than complaining that someone chooses to field no heavy warjacks, or construct a list that you find is unthematic and therefore should not be legal due to conflicts with the fluff.

You know the rules of the event before you attend, and those are the rules that all of the players must follow. Getting upset because another player conforms to the rules of the event, but does not follow your own self-constructed aesthetic compass is just ridiculous.

Personally, I wouldn't bring a non-fully-painted list to a big tournament. To local tournaments sure, that's how I get the majority of my games and I want to try out models I haven't had a chance to paint yet. But if I was planning on travelling to a con or something, I'd be sure to plan out my painting schedule before-hand to make sure my army was complete before the show.

I've never heard of an event where unassembled miniatures were allowed. That sounds extremely odd.

I'm frankly amazed that LGS don't strongly encourage painted product. Its nice to be able to assemble and play, and impulse sales are great. Painted minis make people take another look. Maybe even buy.

I think you've just got a batch of folks who'd rather play.

beefHeart wrote:I've heard horror stories...

There are people like this in ALL games. Let's see... GW horror stories at events and conventions...

Tournment Marshal's friends winning 3-4 years in a row at convention... Standing Ultra Marine winner with a weak list faced three consequtive rounds against nids and there are only 4 nid players out of 60+ players... Winner's wife takes best painted even though there are better painted armies on the tables... Let's see, horde armies running down the clock and stalling by deploying, moving, and shooting slowly... People getting tanked on comp even with high troop count and %... I can go on for days...

In all honestly most hybrid players I know takes PP tournies a lot more seriously than GW events, maybe it's locaion specific, but the bottomline is that there are jerks everywhere. GW still takes the cake for being elitist. That attitute is what started driving me away from GW games and their products. I purchased your merchandise less than a month ago, and you will not let me play unless EVERYTHING is fully painted and based? As CT said:

CT GAMER wrote:it IS elitist.

For me it's kind of intimidating. I psych myself out by thinking that the paint job I'll do will only make the model look lousy. Eventually I'm going to get over this and just do it. Probably when I have enough models that I can clearly label a few as my least favorite. I'll use those as my guinea pigs. Until then I'd rather not rob myself of the game entirely.

Magmoo wrote:For me it's kind of intimidating. I psych myself out by thinking that the paint job I'll do will only make the model look lousy. Eventually I'm going to get over this and just do it. Probably when I have enough models that I can clearly label a few as my least favorite. I'll use those as my guinea pigs. Until then I'd rather not rob myself of the game entirely.

Just do it! You will never become a great painter if you don't start painting... Prime um white and brush on some badab black wash(big brush), pick out a few colors... it's not that difficult. Certainly they will look better then no paint...

My friend Billy did a Tutorial for "Quick Wing" that shows how easy painting can be...

http://www.hqtc.org/joomla/index.php?option=com_idoblog&task=viewpost&id=41&Itemid=91

Why do fewer people paint in Warmachine?

Because Privateer Press made it so you don't have to if you just want to play the game. Even in tournaments.

What you see in WM/Hordes land is what people REALLY think about painting Mini's. For most, it's all about playing the game well. Painted mini's are just a "nice to have".

Magmoo wrote:For me it's kind of intimidating. I psych myself out by thinking that the paint job I'll do will only make the model look lousy. Eventually I'm going to get over this and just do it. Probably when I have enough models that I can clearly label a few as my least favorite. I'll use those as my guinea pigs. Until then I'd rather not rob myself of the game entirely.

I feel this way, too! I painted most of an army about 8 years ago before getting out of wargaming for a while. But it didn't look that great and I was kind of bummed about all the time I put in for a so-so effect :/. I think painting clinics help a lot... I attended one and got some confidence in the basic methods that are easy but make the models look really good. But it's still a bit intimidating and I'd rather have someone else paint for me if I can!!

I love playing wiyth a fully painted army against another painted army ( i am new to hoards and have not played a game yet but have been in 40k for a while) and i think you should at least primer you guy instead of just leaving them unpainted.

Kogwar wrote:I love playing wiyth a fully painted army against another painted army ( i am new to hoards and have not played a game yet but have been in 40k for a while) and i think you should at least primer you guy instead of just leaving them unpainted.

I dunno about that. Primer rubs off if you play with your models a lot. If you're not
going to paint it don't pretend with the primer.

depend the primer i think gws is realy goood though i usally play with plastic rather than metal so i may be wrong i wasa saying if you play wih guys who have a panted ofrce if neather of you paint then ok

Really? People don't paint their WM minis? How could they NOT? You've got these huge, gorgeous models just begging to a paint scheme, and the Jacks are big enough you can get away, to a degree, without having to layer highlights or shading because they're big enough to provide it for themselves...AND you've got less minis than 40K/WFB armies, so you're devoting less time to it.

As for the elitism of wanting painted minis on the table, miniatures games are by definition a game about the VISUALS. If you don't have painted minis, what's the point? Why not just play a cardstock-counter game from Avalon Hill? You'll save loads of time and money. My god, at least have the self-respect to try. Failing that, understand that if your opponent DOES care about the visual aspect of the game, you're making the experience less fun for him if you show up with bare metal (or, alternatively and worse, just legs/bases), so show some respect to your opponent and at least attempt to paint your minis.

Some people like the game mechanics more than the process of painting.

malfred wrote:Some people like the game mechanics more than the process of painting.

2 points:

Does that abrogate one from the responsibility of trying to make the game (not competition) enjoyable for the opponent? At least around here, we all get very excited when we get to create a battle with painted minis and nice terrain. It just LOOKS cool, and is an end unto itself. Add onto the fact that you get to play a game in this cool little world you've created, and the appeal of a miniature game is apparent. Playing a game where the opponent has unpainted minis can be significantly less enjoyable, because you don't get that "cool little world" effect. Thus, deliberately not painting your minis has a deletorious effect on MY enjoyment of the game (and to be clear, because this ALWAYS gets brought up in these conversations, I'm talking about long-term players who refuse to paint, not newbies, or veteran players trying out new units they haven't gotten around to painting yet). I'd like to think that my opponent cares about that. There's a word for people who don't care about other people - "rude".


Secondly, and again I ask, why not play a dice n' counters game instead of a miniatures based game if the visual appeal means nothing to you? It's LOADS cheaper, and you don't have to deal with people complaining that you didn't paint your counters. The ONLY advantage a minis game has over the counter-based game is the visual appeal. Otherwise, it's a time sink, money sink, you open yourself to complaints about the painting and terrain, the rules are very often inferior to counter games...

But the visual spectacle of the miniature wargame is like nothing else. That's what makes up for all the other pains in the ass that being part of the hobby involves. If you can't even have the visual spectacle, what reason is there to play when there's better games out there? If you choose to play a game in which the primary draw is the visual spectacle, then you should darn well understand there's a desire among the other players to enjoy that visual spectacle, and even if you dislike painting, you should have enough respect for your fellow players' enjoyment to do it anyway. It's NOT just about YOUR* fun when it's a 2+ player game.


*Hypothetical "you" here, not "you" specifically, Malfred.

Swordguy wrote:
2 points:

Does that abrogate one from the responsibility of trying to make the game (not competition) enjoyable for the opponent?

I guess I don't see painting as a responsibility. In order to play the game, your responsibilities
lie in knowing the rules and representing your models. For some, that means paint, and for me
that means you can identify the model on its base.

I certainly think of painting as an important factor in player retention, but that's me being
a bit cynical. I figure if people paint their models they're more likely to play the game
as they've invested a good deal of time into the process.

At least around here, we all get very excited when we get to create a battle with painted minis and nice terrain. It just LOOKS cool, and is an end unto itself. Add onto the fact that you get to play a game in this cool little world you've created, and the appeal of a miniature game is apparent. Playing a game where the opponent has unpainted minis can be significantly less enjoyable, because you don't get that "cool little world" effect. Thus, deliberately not painting your minis has a deletorious effect on MY enjoyment of the game (and to be clear, because this ALWAYS gets brought up in these conversations, I'm talking about long-term players who refuse to paint, not newbies, or veteran players trying out new units they haven't gotten around to painting yet). I'd like to think that my opponent cares about that. There's a word for people who don't care about other people - "rude".

Again, I agree with you that it looks cool to have painted models, but for some painting
the minis takes their enjoyment out of the game. I think it's one of those things that
separates people in the hobby. William Zinsser describes a panel discussion with himself
and a doctor writer where they both answered the question about their writing process.
Zinsser was shocked to find out that the doctor enjoyed the process very much. The
doctor was shocked to find that the process was hard work and for Zinsser and that
revision was necessary.

And even if it's not that, I can't bring myself to call it "rude" when an opponent shows
up with minis they haven't painted. It doesn't take away from the fact that I've painted
my miniatures and I've enjoyed the time put into it. Maybe if I painted reluctantly and
showed up to see that someone hasn't painted, then I'd be annoyed. But I paint
willingly, and I love the process, so I don't mind it when someone shows up unpainted.

However, part of that might be because I play people whom I think of as friends, so
perhaps I overlook the painting a lot of the time.

Secondly, and again I ask, why not play a dice n' counters game instead of a miniatures based game if the visual appeal means nothing to you? It's LOADS cheaper, and you don't have to deal with people complaining that you didn't paint your counters. The ONLY advantage a minis game has over the counter-based game is the visual appeal. Otherwise, it's a time sink, money sink, you open yourself to complaints about the painting and terrain, the rules are very often inferior to counter games...

But the visual spectacle of the miniature wargame is like nothing else. That's what makes up for all the other pains in the ass that being part of the hobby involves. If you can't even have the visual spectacle, what reason is there to play when there's better games out there? If you choose to play a game in which the primary draw is the visual spectacle, then you should darn well understand there's a desire among the other players to enjoy that visual spectacle, and even if you dislike painting, you should have enough respect for your fellow players' enjoyment to do it anyway. It's NOT just about YOUR* fun when it's a 2+ player game.

*Hypothetical "you" here, not "you" specifically, Malfred.

For some, miniatures ARE a dice n' counters game, so playing 40k, Flames of War,
or Warmachine is all about how the counters represent a gameworld and a game
that is enjoyable. For some, the visual spectacle of the mini itself is enough, and so
they play because the minis look cool (even unpainted) .

As far as the two player enjoyment thing goes, I guess we disagree on how far that
courtesy extends. To me it means that I'm using recognizable figs, I know the rules
as best as I am able, I put up some kind of fight, and I'm not being a tool. For others
that means marked bases (ick!).

Hmmmm well the odd thing around here with the clubs I have recently started running, is that it started off as the amount of paint on the model was inversely proportional to quality of the figure. So those really old single pose space marines and orks, yeah, they're painted, the new multipose stuff, lucky if its half painted with some plastic still showing, and nice quality figures like warmachine, not a chance.

I found the key was making an effort. The guy who used to run them before I did was very lazy, he didn't organise events for the clubs, he didn't encourage painting, he didn't repair and supply terrain, and so I think the kids coming to the club were less likely to care because he didn't care. Since I took over I have repaired and repainted most of the terrain and started to run tournaments and events where painting is either required or Encouraged. And since I gave out a prize at one of them for best painted army, more and more figures have turned up painted, (Mainly 40k and things like that, but its the same problems and the Warmachine events will come). Its almost enough to warm the cold dark depths of my heart

So! I myself play Warmachine, and I love the figures, my Khador have been sat in the cabinet with the kids drooling over them for weeks, we have a guy(or girl) coming in to give us a Demo day, and hopefully when they start buying they will paint their Warmachine.....

Though I myself doubt it very much

I like having painted models on both sides of the table in any minis game I play. Serves the visual aesthetic and helps with identification.

How does an unpainted unprimed model look cool from across the table?
You have to pick it up, look at it, and imagine what it would look like painted.
And as soon as its back on your opponent's side, you lose all sense of detail that the model may have.
I hate having to ask an opponent "Which models are in what unit?" Its kinda hard to tell when they are all bare metal or primer.
The paint serves to give the models identity.

I dislike unpainted models in a game because it is tough enough to keep straight what all the units in a game can do when you can easily tell what they are.
Without paint, you might mistake one unit of infantry for another. And this would let bad things happen.

Since I paint things very similarly, I end up having the same effect, skrulnik.

My Protectorate of Menoth horde type army often has me trying to figure out where
I placed various models before, during, and long after deployment.

skrulnik wrote:
How does an unpainted unprimed model look cool from across the table?
You have to pick it up, look at it, and imagine what it would look like painted.

Quoted for Truth

/Rant on
Just stop stuffin yer faces with cheetos, set the XBox aside for 30 minutes a day and PAINT... There is no excuse except perhaps that you are lame, lazy or both.
/Rant off

beefHeart wrote:

skrulnik wrote:
How does an unpainted unprimed model look cool from across the table?
You have to pick it up, look at it, and imagine what it would look like painted.

Quoted for Truth

/Rant on
Just stop stuffin yer faces with cheetos, set the XBox aside for 30 minutes a day and PAINT... There is no excuse except perhaps that you are lame, lazy or both.
/Rant off

Quoted for disagreement.

Painting is good, but if I have a choice of playing my friend's unpainted army and a tool's
painted army I'll play my friend.

malfred wrote:

Painting is good, but if I have a choice of playing my friend's unpainted army and a tool's
painted army I'll play my friend.

I think the operative word there it "tool". Nobody likes to play a tool regardless of the status of their army.

Do you find yourself enjoying the game more when it's you and a good friend playing with painted armies, as compared to you and a good friend playing where the armies are...not-so-painted? I certainly do - which doesn't stop me from playing with the friend who doesn't have a painted army (because I'm not, generally speaking, a jackass), because dude's my friend. But my enjoyment of the game, all other things being equal, is greater when both armies are painted.

Swordguy wrote:

malfred wrote:

Painting is good, but if I have a choice of playing my friend's unpainted army and a tool's
painted army I'll play my friend.

I think the operative word there it "tool". Nobody likes to play a tool regardless of the status of their army.

Do you find yourself enjoying the game more when it's you and a good friend playing with painted armies, as compared to you and a good friend playing where the armies are...not-so-painted? I certainly do - which doesn't stop me from playing with the friend who doesn't have a painted army (because I'm not, generally speaking, a jackass), because dude's my friend. But my enjoyment of the game, all other things being equal, is greater when both armies are painted.

Depends on the paint. I've seen some horror show jobs that probably need to meet Mr. Simple Green.

My enjoyment of the game is based on the game experience. I paint my stuff because
that's what I prefer, but it doesn't bother me any to see the opponent hasn't painted
their stuff.

Usually.

Here's when it does bother me. It's when the unpainted army is a sign that the person
is in and out of armies so often that they don't know what the heck they're doing,
they're constantly ebaying into and out of armies, and they generally show no
commitment to understanding why they're going to win with an army but rather they
simply expect TO win with the latest and greatest army.

This can happen with painted models, too.

Paint is a good sign of commitment, but it's not the only barometer. Friendly banter,
execution of rules, etc. all add to my level of enjoyment. If all of those things are
working then really I won't mind the lack of paint at all. I don't see it as a lack of
respect towards me as a painter or a player, and I don't see it as rude or lazy.

I see paint as a preference.

It's not just a yes or no would you like this question. There are a lot of things that
would be nice to have in a game. One of the things I don't want is to see someone
do something that they don't like to do so they are already unhappy when they
get to the table. You can feel a negative vibe like that when someone doesn't care
about what they're doing. I'd rather they show up ready to enjoy the game and
make the game enjoyable than have them suffer through a process that only adds
to my visual enjoyment.

This may or may not have anything to do with we're talking about. There was a
guy at a store I once overheard as saying that he didn't like 40k, he didn't enjoy
painting, but the reason he did those things was to compete with other people
and try to do those things better than other people.

Why the heck would I want to play someone like that?

beefHeart wrote: There is no excuse except perhaps that you are lame, lazy or both.
/Rant off

OR that you could care less about painting. I know it's perhaps shocking to you, but not everyone aspires to be "BeefHeart the paint natzi".

Take something like vassal. People use it to play games like WM and 40K. They aren't painting anything. Heck they aren't even using actual models. They are still playing WM. Sme rules, same armies, same points values...

Some people enjoy the specific rules engine, play features and tactical challenge of a game like WM. For them the models could just as well be chits or counters(as vassal once again proves).

Me I'm a hobbiest. I build terrain ,i convert and paint models, play is really secondary to all that for me, but I am not so self-centered to understand that not everyone plays for the same reasons as I do...

First I'm an "Elitist", now I'm a "Nazi". What's next? Anti-Christ?

It's all just a bunch of thin excuses...

Waaaa... I don't have time...

Waaaa... I'm no good at painting...

Waaaa... my dog ate my brushes...


Yes, I'm old and grumpy and remember when you actually had to spend time at a hobby to reap the rewards.

I paint everything in Hordes. I'm way less likely to use an unpainted figure. The figures are all so nice and you need so few of them that I feel bad if I don't keep on top. At this point, the ones I haven't painted are the ones that I need to pin to assemble. My drill is broken and I can't be bothered getting a new one when I have so much plastic from GW to assemble. Whoever thought not putting a base peg on long riders was a good idea...

beefHeart wrote:First I'm an "Elitist", now I'm a "Nazi". What's next? Anti-Christ?

It's all just a bunch of thin excuses...

Waaaa... I don't have time...

Waaaa... I'm no good at painting...

Waaaa... my dog ate my brushes...


Yes, I'm old and grumpy and remember when you actually had to spend time at a hobby to reap the rewards.

The reward is a good time. If they only get that from gaming, then they are not making an
excuse, they are giving a reason for not painting. No one is waaa-ing except you in imitation
of a version of non-painters.

Nazi, elitist and anti-christ are poor arguments for either side of the equation.

You are a hobbysit who prefers painted models, and the gamer is someone who would
prefer to spend more time playing with his models than painting them.

beefHeart wrote:First I'm an "Elitist", now I'm a "Nazi". What's next? Anti-Christ?

It's all just a bunch of thin excuses...

Waaaa... I don't have time...

Waaaa... I'm no good at painting...

Waaaa... my dog ate my brushes...


Yes, I'm old and grumpy and remember when you actually had to spend time at a hobby to reap the rewards.

Your rant is just weak, simple as that.

I know people that don't paint and don't even attempt to make excuses.

They simply choose not to paint.

Period.

You can wave your arms in the air about the inhumanity and horror of it, but it is a fact. Not everyone cares to paint. Not everyone wants to be beefheart. Not everyone cares what a bunch of blowhards have to say about them not painting (believe me we tried to get number of them to" see the light" you describe)

Don't worry though, take a deep breathe, life will go on...

Malfred, you are "almost" completely correct. That said I generally won't be playing games with people who don't share my level of involvement in the hobby. To me, at least in this hobby, there in nothing better then seeing two lovingly painted armies going head to head on a beautifully crafted table. What that means is you will almost never see me gaming at an LGS where I'm going to have to contend with snotty nosed kids, power gamers and crappy terrain all while being pressured to buy stuff I don't need. If I had not found the local club that I did I would probably still be hanging with the old men down at the RC Air-Field or scratch building model RRs.

The membership at my club represents all types of gamers from folks who are almost purely hobby to very competitive tournament players. Among members there are still people I don't really care to play and don't.

Even the most novice painter gets more respect then those who paint nothing.