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I never played fourth addition but I assume that the "works with the unit of scorpions he joins" clarification is a left over from then.

Was stealth not conferred to units joined back then?

Oddly the rule is one of those, that was copy and pasted from the 4th Ed.

The most abusive use of this is Karandras in a unit of 10 wrath guard with a warlock and conceal being fortuned. It walks across the board ignoring almost every thing hits them. I rarely run this most people (rightly) feel this cheesy. Since even anti tank weaponry starts bouncing off them.

I'm not sure how you can claim that Stealth applies to any unit he joins.

P1: Karandras has the Stealth USR (Codex Eldar Pg 56)
P2: Codex overrides rulebook
P3: Karandras' Stealth rule also states "This ability is also conferred to any unit of Striking Scorpions Karandras joins."
C: Karandras' Stealth USR is modified by Codex Eldar to state that it transfers to units of Striking Scorpions if he joins them, instead of any eligible unit as would normally be the case by the Stealth USR.

whitedragon wrote:I'm not sure how you can claim that Stealth applies to any unit he joins.

P1: Karandras has the Stealth USR (Codex Eldar Pg 56)
P2: Codex overrides rulebook
P3: Karandras' Stealth rule also states "This ability is also conferred to any unit of Striking Scorpions Karandras joins."
C: Karandras' Stealth USR is modified by Codex Eldar to state that it transfers to units of Striking Scorpions if he joins them, instead of any eligible unit as would normally be the case by the Stealth USR.

That had me wondering too, because in every other instance i have read where an IC confers a rule to a unit, it says "any unit." In this case, a particular type of unit is specified.

Initially, in my favor, I had assumed he conferred it to any unit at all. I had envisioned pathfinders getting 2+ cover saves behind picket fences, barbed wire, and lamp posts.

whitedragon wrote:I'm not sure how you can claim that Stealth applies to any unit he joins.

P1: Karandras has the Stealth USR (Codex Eldar Pg 56)
P2: Codex overrides rulebook
P3: Karandras' Stealth rule also states "This ability is also conferred to any unit of Striking Scorpions Karandras joins."
C: Karandras' Stealth USR is modified by Codex Eldar to state that it transfers to units of Striking Scorpions if he joins them, instead of any eligible unit as would normally be the case by the Stealth USR.

If you go to a Diner that offers a free drink with every meal, and then a specific meal on the menu says that you may get cola with that meal, then it doesn't mean you cannot get Orangade with said meal. its just a case of a redundent sentence.

if it said "you may only get cola with this meal" then you'd have a statement that meant something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Falconlance wrote:


Initially, in my favor, I had assumed he conferred it to any unit at all. I had envisioned pathfinders getting 2+ cover saves behind picket fences, barbed wire, and lamp posts.

This still wouldnt work as nothing says that Stealth stacks.

combo wrote:

Falconlance wrote:


Initially, in my favor, I had assumed he conferred it to any unit at all. I had envisioned pathfinders getting 2+ cover saves behind picket fences, barbed wire, and lamp posts.

This still wouldnt work as nothing says that Stealth stacks.

Is it safe to assume then, that going to ground will not improve the pathfinders cover save?

Going to ground would add +1 to the path finders +2 but you'd wast a turn. far better to take adding +2 to your cover save and be able to shoot then adding +3 to your cover save and do nothing.

This is because GtG does not equal Stealth. They are 2 different rules that add +1 to your cover save.

Pathfinders and Karandras both use the Stealth USR but pathfinders modify it to be +2 instead of +1. Any IC joining the unit would befit from +1 from the Stealth rule but not +2 as that is part of the pathfinders rule which only effects the path finder.

whitedragon wrote:I'm not sure how you can claim that Stealth applies to any unit he joins.

P1: Karandras has the Stealth USR (Codex Eldar Pg 56)
P2: Codex overrides rulebook
P3: Karandras' Stealth rule also states "This ability is also conferred to any unit of Striking Scorpions Karandras joins."
C: Karandras' Stealth USR is modified by Codex Eldar to state that it transfers to units of Striking Scorpions if he joins them, instead of any eligible unit as would normally be the case by the Stealth USR.

This is wrong. The Part about the Scorps does not limit it to ONLY scorps.

Gwar! wrote:This is wrong. The Part about the Scorps does not limit it to ONLY scorps.

It doesn't have to say "only" to limit the ability to Scorps. If he has Stealth, and confers it to any unit of scorpions, then he doesn't confer it to any other units, because the entry specifically tells us, He confers it to scorpions. Scorpions are clearly different than "Any Unit" which would normally be the case because of the USR description. The Eldar codex modifies the USR to describe scorpions as the unit that gains Stealth. Since the Eldar codex does not mention any other unit, and applies a modification and restriction to Stealth, it must only apply to Scorps.

Hence my Premise and Conclusion above.

Errrm... you seem to be getting it mixed up.

The rule says He has the "Stealth Special Rule".

Well there we go... he confers it to any unit he joins, as per the Stealth Special rule. The Part in Parenthesis is there to remind you that it does so. The part in parenthesis does not prevent it from working with other units. If it was intended to limit it, the rule would say "only Striking Scorps"

As I keep saying RAI may be that it should only work with Scorpions but like many rules written by GW that's not what we've been given. RAW states that any unit with a model with Stealth USR has +1 to their cover save. In his stealth rule it merely adds that it is conferred to scorpions that he joins.

This is another case of GW not read their rules and checking that they do what they're meant to.

And its not like its something new its been part of the codex since it came out in 4th ...

whitedragon wrote:

Gwar! wrote:This is wrong. The Part about the Scorps does not limit it to ONLY scorps.

It doesn't have to say "only" to limit the ability to Scorps. If he has Stealth, and confers it to any unit of scorpions, then he doesn't confer it to any other units, because the entry specifically tells us, He confers it to scorpions. Scorpions are clearly different than "Any Unit" which would normally be the case because of the USR description. The Eldar codex modifies the USR to describe scorpions as the unit that gains Stealth. Since the Eldar codex does not mention any other unit, and applies a modification and restriction to Stealth, it must only apply to Scorps.

Hence my Premise and Conclusion above.

Stealth by default is applied to any unit a IC joins. The codex doesnt change this. It says "the stealth rule is applied to any unit tof scorpions the IC joins" to which I'd reply "no sh t , its also applied to any other unit it joins"

No were in the codex does the USR get modified. If it said "The stealth rule is only applied" then it'd be obvious but as it stands its like someone saying "A character with stealth may apply stealth to a unit of scorpions it joins" it may also apply stealth to a unit of Guardians it joins, as no were in my sentence do I say "It may only"

I find it quite funny that you can put karandras with a unit of Harlequins, giving them infiltrate.

Goliath wrote:I find it quite funny that you can put karandras with a unit of Harlequins, giving them infiltrate.

I find it quite funny that you don't bother to read.

You can give them infiltrate, but by the time he has joined the Harlequins, it is too late for them to infiltrate. You can join them in reserves and outflank though.

Gwar! wrote:You can give them infiltrate, but by the time he has joined the Harlequins, it is too late for them to infiltrate. You can join them in reserves and outflank though.

Actually Gwar, thats incorrect. As they are not aspect warriors or an autarch, harlequins cannot benefit from exarch powers in the first place.

EDIT:

Additionally, if they were aspect warriors, karandras couldnt join them anyway, because they are not of his aspect.

Falconlance wrote:

Gwar! wrote:You can give them infiltrate, but by the time he has joined the Harlequins, it is too late for them to infiltrate. You can join them in reserves and outflank though.

Actually Gwar, thats incorrect. As they are not aspect warriors or an autarch, harlequins cannot benefit from exarch powers in the first place.

EDIT:

Additionally, if they were aspect warriors, karandras couldnt join them anyway, because they are not of his aspect.

Correct, I was just pointing out that it wouldn't work even if he could affect them. I suppose I should have said "could" not "can"

Im gonna disagree with you there Falconlance. The exact wording of shadowstrike is

"The exarch becomes one with the shadows, using them to shield his squad from their enemies as they approach. squads including a model with shadowstrike has the infiltrate special rule. This ability cannot affect an autarch - his command is needed else were"

The wording for phoenix lords states "Phoenix lords cannot join aspect warrior squads that are not of their aspect"

Therefore Karandras can confer infiltrate to a unit of Harliquins. As they are a Squad, and He can be a member of them.

It is for this reason that when an Exarch in a Dire Avenger Squad bladestorms, a Farseer can fire two shots from his Shuriken pistol, if hes in range. And technically should be the reason why Asurmen would be able to grand defend or bladestorm to a unit of Guardians.

Actually, the FAQ states only Aspect Warriors are affected by their powers, it even specifically mentions Shadowstrike.

combo wrote:Im gonna disagree with you there Falconlance. The exact wording of shadowstrike is

"The exarch becomes one with the shadows, using them to shield his squad from their enemies as they approach. squads including a model with shadowstrike has the infiltrate special rule. This ability cannot affect an autarch - his command is needed else were"

The wording for phoenix lords states "Phoenix lords cannot join aspect warrior squads that are not of their aspect"

Therefore Karandras can confer infiltrate to a unit of Harliquins. As they are a Squad, and He can be a member of them.

It is for this reason that when an Exarch in a Dire Avenger Squad bladestorms, a Farseer can fire two shots from his Shuriken pistol, if hes in range. And technically should be the reason why Asurmen would be able to grand defend or bladestorm to a unit of Guardians.

And again, this is an FAQ ruling that you are choosing to ignore.

willydstyle wrote:And again, this is an FAQ ruling that you are choosing to ignore.

As you should do, because this really should be an Errata. However Most people seem to use it as a basis for their games (Even I use 99% of it 99% of the time.)

Well as ive said many a time, my club prefers to run on entirely vanilla rules. No FAQ's, however we do give each other alot of leway (for instance allowing Shrike to infiltrate with a group) However that is because it is obviously intended that Shrike should be able to do that. No were does the rules hint that a phoenix lord cannot give his powers to another squad. Its RaI gone mad to be honest.

FAQ's should be used to clear up problems were the rules break down, not change rules that work perfectly because they dont seem right.

combo wrote:Well as ive said many a time, my club prefers to run on entirely vanilla rules. No FAQ's, however we do give each other alot of leway (for instance allowing Shrike to infiltrate with a group) However that is because it is obviously intended that Shrike should be able to do that. No were does the rules hint that a phoenix lord cannot give his powers to another squad. Its RaI gone mad to be honest.

FAQ's should be used to clear up problems were the rules break down, not change rules that work perfectly because they dont seem right.

I agree, however you must take into consideration a lot of people blindly follow them like the unwashed nerdy sheep they are

combo wrote:Well as ive said many a time, my club prefers to run on entirely vanilla rules. No FAQ's, however we do give each other alot of leway (for instance allowing Shrike to infiltrate with a group) However that is because it is obviously intended that Shrike should be able to do that. No were does the rules hint that a phoenix lord cannot give his powers to another squad. Its RaI gone mad to be honest.

FAQ's should be used to clear up problems were the rules break down, not change rules that work perfectly because they dont seem right.

While I agree with you in principle, most people who do not play in your club consider the FAQs to be "rules." As Gwar! and I have said, most of the FAQ rulings really should be errata, but I think that GW just doesn't want to have to do so many reprintings.

willydstyle wrote:

combo wrote:Well as ive said many a time, my club prefers to run on entirely vanilla rules. No FAQ's, however we do give each other alot of leway (for instance allowing Shrike to infiltrate with a group) However that is because it is obviously intended that Shrike should be able to do that. No were does the rules hint that a phoenix lord cannot give his powers to another squad. Its RaI gone mad to be honest.

FAQ's should be used to clear up problems were the rules break down, not change rules that work perfectly because they dont seem right.

While I agree with you in principle, most people who do not play in your club consider the FAQs to be "rules." As Gwar! and I have said, most of the FAQ rulings really should be errata, but I think that GW just doesn't want to have to do so many reprintings.

It is not even that, its because they don't want to admit they fethed up as bad as they did. it would take one guy literally 2 weeks to go with a marker pen and fix via errata all the issues in the FAQ's. GW can then issue the errata online and work to getting a second Print Run of all the codexes.

But.. they don't, because the Shareholders have an odd belief that spending money to support the game doesn't make them any.

combo wrote:Well as ive said many a time, my club prefers to run on entirely vanilla rules. No FAQ's, however we do give each other alot of leway (for instance allowing Shrike to infiltrate with a group) However that is because it is obviously intended that Shrike should be able to do that. No were does the rules hint that a phoenix lord cannot give his powers to another squad. Its RaI gone mad to be honest.

FAQ's should be used to clear up problems were the rules break down, not change rules that work perfectly because they dont seem right.

combo wrote:Im gonna disagree with you there Falconlance. The exact wording of shadowstrike is

"The exarch becomes one with the shadows, using them to shield his squad from their enemies as they approach. squads including a model with shadowstrike has the infiltrate special rule. This ability cannot affect an autarch - his command is needed else were"

The wording for phoenix lords states "Phoenix lords cannot join aspect warrior squads that are not of their aspect"

Therefore Karandras can confer infiltrate to a unit of Harliquins. As they are a Squad, and He can be a member of them.

It is for this reason that when an Exarch in a Dire Avenger Squad bladestorms, a Farseer can fire two shots from his Shuriken pistol, if hes in range. And technically should be the reason why Asurmen would be able to grand defend or bladestorm to a unit of Guardians.

It says right there, clear as crystal, on page 21 of Codex: Eldar, under the "Exarch Powers" heading, "Note that exarch powers can only ever affect aspect warriors and autarchs in the same squad as the exarch using them. If an exarch is removed from play then his abilities are lost."

Harlequins are not aspect warriors.

'This ability is also conferred to any unit of Striking Scorpions Karandras joins'

Does the wording here mean that i can, say, join Karandras to a unit of scorpions in turn one, then another unit in turn 2, meaning that BOTH have the Stealth USR? No mention is made towhit Karandras has to be a part of the squad, merely that as long as he 'joins' it it has Stealth!

/ruleslawyeroff

Falconlance wrote:



It says right there, clear as crystal, on page 21 of Codex: Eldar, under the "Exarch Powers" heading, "Note that exarch powers can only ever affect aspect warriors and autarchs in the same squad as the exarch using them. If an exarch is removed from play then his abilities are lost."

Harlequins are not aspect warriors.

I stand corrected. my apologies.

willydstyle wrote:
While I agree with you in principle, most people who do not play in your club consider the FAQs to be "rules." As Gwar! and I have said, most of the FAQ rulings really should be errata, but I think that GW just doesn't want to have to do so many reprintings.

I was not implies that the majority of people do or should. I do believe that on the table top the game should be played as a mixture of RaI and RaW. But I do think that because RaW sometimes breaks down, people are far to willing to use RaI even when RaW is still working.

You CAN still stick asurmen and Yriel together, which would allow Yriel to throw his Spear of Twilight twice in a round

J.Black wrote:'This ability is also conferred to any unit of Striking Scorpions Karandras joins'

Does the wording here mean that i can, say, join Karandras to a unit of scorpions in turn one, then another unit in turn 2, meaning that BOTH have the Stealth USR? No mention is made towhit Karandras has to be a part of the squad, merely that as long as he 'joins' it it has Stealth!

/ruleslawyeroff

Im going to go with no. Lysander has set a semi-precident for this however his wording states "Lysander has never lost the skills that made him the most efficient sergeant the Imperial Fists have ever known. Any model in a squad lysander has joined can reroll failed to hit rolls when shooting with heavy bolters, storm bolters, bolters, and bolt pistols"

Notice how it says "Lysander has joined" which technically means he doesn't have to be in the squad for them to benefit from his special rules.

However in karandras's profile is states "this ability is conferred to any unit of striking scorpions karandras joins" ergo the slightly different wording implies that no, the unit does not keep stealth after he leaves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Falconlance wrote:You CAN still stick asurmen and Yriel together, which would allow Yriel to throw his Spear of Twilight twice in a round

Im afraid im going to have to disagree with you again. Bladestorm states "May choose to add one to the number of shots they each fire with shuriken weapons that turn"

His Spear of Twilight to my knowledge is not a Shuriken weapon!

not to mention the rules on P21 that state it only affects the squads that he is in.

Also, a question just came to mind.

How would these rules interact if you joined two phoenix lords together? Do they count as aspect warriors? Could they benefit from each others exarch powers? Can we stick fuegan and maugan ra together for double crack shot super duo with +1 armor penetration rolls on a str6 assault4 weapon?