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Falconlance wrote:not to mention the rules on P21 that state it only affects the squads that he is in.

Also, a question just came to mind.

How would these rules interact if you joined two phoenix lords together? Do they count as aspect warriors? Could they benefit from each others exarch powers? Can we stick fuegan and maugan ra together for double crack shot super duo with +1 armor penetration rolls on a str6 assault4 weapon?

Is another Phoenix lord a Unit of their Aspect Warriors? No it is not, so he cannot join up with one (As per the FAQ)

Falconlance wrote:You CAN still stick asurmen and Yriel together, which would allow Yriel to throw his Spear of Twilight twice in a round

Im afraid im going to have to disagree with you again. Bladestorm states "May choose to add one to the number of shots they each fire with shuriken weapons that turn"

His Spear of Twilight to my knowledge is not a Shuriken weapon!

Feck. I must have missed the "Fire with their shuriken weaponry" part.

Falconlance wrote:not to mention the rules on P21 that state it only affects the squads that he is in.

Also, a question just came to mind.

How would these rules interact if you joined two phoenix lords together? Do they count as aspect warriors? Could they benefit from each others exarch powers? Can we stick fuegan and maugan ra together for double crack shot super duo with +1 armor penetration rolls on a str6 assault4 weapon?

I assume that if they count as Aspect Warriors then neither of them could join each others squad. As either of them would be an aspect warrior not of the others own Aspect.

I.E. Maugan Ra is in a unit of Guardians, is Karandras tried to join the said unit of guardians he couldnt, as the squad has an Aspect Warrior of the Dark Reapers in it (Maugan Ra)

Of course if they do not count as Aspect Warriors then they could join each others squad. However that would mean that as they are most definitely not Autarchs then they ironically would not be affected by their exarch powers.

Therefore I would conclude they are Aspect Warriors and as such cannot join a neutral unit if it contains another Phoenix lord.

Joins / Has Joined...

If only someone thought to write 'is joined to' instead.... Oh, wait. I just remembered which company wrote the accursed things. /sigh

Actually, ICs and universal special rules dont quite work as Tri and Gwar have stated.

Any USR with a * is lost if the IC and the unit hes joining dont both have the USR.

However, the other USRs arent automatically gained by units or ICs. They just arent lost by the one side if only one side has the USR.

Page 48 under the IC rules points out that different USRs arent conferred onto a unit or IC that doesnt have the USR unless the USR specifically states that the ability is conferred. It uses the stubborn USR as an example that mentions it gets added if the unit doesnt have stubborn.

Stealth doesnt have this special mention of being conferred tho, so if an IC with stealth joins a unit without stealth....the unit doesnt gain stealth, the IC just doesnt lose it. This means that Karandas in a unit of guardians doesnt give them stealth but he does still have it himself.

It also means that the mention in the eldar codex of stealth being passed on to any unit of scorps is not redundant, if it was mentioned there the scorps would not get stealth as its not conferred to any unit and its not an exarch power.

The FAQ really clears up the only problem with the RAW, everything else is answered in the RAW. Stealth only works on scorps because the codex says it works on scorps.



Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:The FAQ really clears up the only problem with the RAW, everything else is answered in the RAW. Stealth only works on scorps because the codex says it works on scorps.

The Rules for stealth also clearly indicate it is the UNIT that benefits from the effect, not the model.

But, as the IC rules point out, the unit doesnt gain the stealth USR. The stealth USR does talk about the unit's cover saves being improved by +1, but nothing there tells us that a unit is given the stealth USR by an IC that has stealth.

And since on pg 48 the RAW specifically tells us that the IC wont give any unit he joins his own USR UNLESS the USR specifically tells us that it is conferred, then the unit wont get stealth.

The USR on stealth does tell us what stealth does for a unit with stealth, but an IC with stealth isnt going to give stealth to a unit he joins.

Pg 48:

*Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the 'stubborn' special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit.*

So that pretty clearly tells us that Karandas dosnt add stealth to anything. Then the Eldar codex tells us that he does confer stealth to any unit of scorps that he joins, so since specific > general all is well.


Sliggoth

One could argue that the fact that the Stealth USR says "unit" could mean that it does specify that the unit gains the ability.

Except that the example sited for a USR that does confer the ability (stubborn) does indeed have an entire sentence that tells us that IC with stubborn give that ability to any unit they join. Pg 48 tells us what the requirement is for conferring an ability is, and it gives us an example of how such a rule would read.

And in the stealth USR the word unit is used to describe how the stealth USR affects gameplay, it has no mention whatsoever of an IC. The USR has to tell us that it is conferred, which the stealth rule does not do. All the stealth USR tells us is what happens when a unit does have the USR, it makes no mention at all about conferring it.

Since very few IC have stealth (anyone besides Karandas?) I would imagine that they used the word unit's simply because they forgot about him.

A further indication that this is true would be that the eldar codex makes a specific rule for karandas conferring stealth onto a unit of scorps that he joins, this rule would indeed be redundant if the stealth USR was already conferred by any IC onto any unit that they joined. Since GW is famous for sloppy rule writing this is by no means useful as proof of the rule, but it perhaps adds a crumb to one side of the scale.


Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:Except that the example sited for a USR that does confer the ability (stubborn) does indeed have an entire sentence that tells us that IC with stubborn give that ability to any unit they join. Pg 48 tells us what the requirement is for conferring an ability is, and it gives us an example of how such a rule would read.

And in the stealth USR the word unit is used to describe how the stealth USR affects gameplay, it has no mention whatsoever of an IC. The USR has to tell us that it is conferred, which the stealth rule does not do. All the stealth USR tells us is what happens when a unit does have the USR, it makes no mention at all about conferring it.

Since very few IC have stealth (anyone besides Karandas?) I would imagine that they used the word unit's simply because they forgot about him.

A further indication that this is true would be that the eldar codex makes a specific rule for karandas conferring stealth onto a unit of scorps that he joins, this rule would indeed be redundant if the stealth USR was already conferred by any IC onto any unit that they joined. Since GW is famous for sloppy rule writing this is by no means useful as proof of the rule, but it perhaps adds a crumb to one side of the scale.


Sliggoth

I was thinking about this same line of logic... because, for example, a Crisis suit commander does not grant a unit he joins FNP just because he has a specific piece of wargear. But, as usual, GW screwed up the wording with stealth so that the simplest reading is that an IC with stealth will indeed grant it to any unit he joins.

Dont get caught up on the word unit. After all, even an IC alone is a unit.


The USR on stealth is just that, a general rule. Its hard to get much more general than universal.

The stealth USR tells us what effect stealth has for a unit that has stealth, it in no way tells us what unit(s) have stealth. So the word "unit's" in the stealth rule is very general, telling us what the effect does for any unit that has stealth (which would include a unit that is an IC).

To see if an IC gives a unit that he joins his effects we need to look at the special rule on pg 48 for ICs, which tells us that USRs need to specifically tell us that they are added. It gives us an example of a USR that does do this, stubborn. Looking at the USR for stealth, we find that it tells us how stealth affects a unit that has it but it does not tell us that ICs with stealth add it to any unit they join. So by the IC rule we see that stealth is not added.

That is the reason that karandas has another special rule specifically mentioning that he adds stealth to any unit of scorpions that he joins, because the stealth rule wouldnt let him give anything else stealth on its own.


Sliggoth

Ok lets work through the reasons give against it conferring to every one in a unit. Some other USR don't work the same way on the unit as noted by other posters. They are FNP and Stubborn.

Easy one first ... Feel no pain "...If a model with this ability suffers an unsaved wound ...." Model so not a unit in the slightest.

Moving on, stubborn ... (edit) on second thought I think GW is just wording this to match the fearless rule.

Stealth "All the unit's cover saves are improved by +1" since this rule doesn't have the '*' it isn't lost. So a unit with this rule gains +1 to all cover-saves.

Just keep clear what the various parts of the rules there mean.

A * on the rule is telling us that the USR is lost if both the IC and the unit do not have the USR. An IC with a *ed USR loses that USR himslef when he joins a unit without it, and vice versa.

A rule without a * is ONLY telling us that the USR is NOT lost by the IC or UNit that has the USR if they join another unit that does not have the USR. A rule without a * is not automatically given to the other half, it is merely not lost by the half that does have it.

So how do we know if an IC gives his USR to a unit that he joins? We look to pg 48 under the special rules heading for that info. And THAT is the rule for which USRs are given to units that ICs join.

Since stealth doesnt meet the criteria established in the pg 48 rule, that is how we know that stealth isnt conferred onto an IC's unit.


Remember that the word unit is a generic term that applies to units of models as well as a single IC model per pg 4.



Sliggoth

Fair enough I missed that rule on pg 48. Trouble is it doesn't go far enough as on the next page it tells you that when being shot at the count as being the same unit, and all models in a unit with stealth gain +1 to there cover save.

But, the whole point here is that the unit doesnt have stealth. The IC still has stealth so he should still get a +1 to his cover save, but hes not giving stealth to the rest of his unit, so they do not. The next page the rules talk about shooting at an IC and the unit he has joined as one combined unit, there is nothing there that suggests that the unit he joins gains stealth from him tho.

Its fine for an IC to have different saves from the unit he has joined, he can also have different USRs as well.

Sliggoth

The point is, the rule says "The unit gets +1", not the model.

We do know from the IC rules and the USR rules that ICs and units that they join do not give each other stealth.

So the arguement then is being made that since the rule reads that the unit's cover saves are improved by +1 ALL of the unit gets +1 to cover saves, even tho part of the unit does not have stealth?

Then we would be moving the problem back one step, to a conflict between the IC rule on pg 48 and the USR stealth rule, since that reading of the stealth rule would be giving stealth to the rest of the IC's unit.

So either the IC loses stealth himself (since pg 48 tells us he cannot give it to a unit he joins) if by merely joining the unit he is giving it stealth, or else the USR stealth rule is being taken as more specific and is over writing the pg 48 IC rule.


Since the IC pg 48 rule is more specific than the USR (universal being about as general as we can get) that would mean in effect:

The pg 48 rule has precedence, an IC with a USR can only add it to a unit he joins if the USR specifically tells us it does, since the stealth rule doesnt tell us this then the IC must lose stealth himself. This would be the only way he would not give stealth to the unit he joins.

Isnt that where we are headed if we take that road?


Sliggoth

You join the PL with the unit. The IC now has this special rule in effect:
Stealth: All of the unit's cover saves are improved by +1.

Stealth is not marked with an Asterisk, so it is not lost by the IC when he joins a unit without it. Page 48 is not applicable because all the models do not need to have stealth. The rules for stealth say "The unit gets +1 to their cover saves" not the model. Because there is ONE model with the Rules "All of the unit's cover saves are improved by +1" in the unit, the units cover saves are improved by +1

As you can see, the IC having stealth means the whole unit benefits.

If Stealth said "Models cover saves are improved by +1.", then you would have a point, but it does not.

And before you start trumpeting Specific over Universal, As I said, the Models do NOT NEED STEALTH to benefit from it. So long as there is even one model with stealth (Which says "All of the unit's cover saves are improved by +1", they get the benefit.

Sliggoth, I totally agree with you that that's what GW probably intended with the Stealth USR. Yes, an IC is a unit in his or her own right, but the rules also say that when he joins another unit, they become one unit for most purposes. Therefore, the way the Stealth USR was written he will definitely give stealth to any unit he joins, and it doesn't even take any arcane manipulations of semantics to do so.

willydstyle wrote:and it doesn't even take any arcane manipulations of semantics to do so.

Which is a darn shame, because that is so fun!

...This cuts both ways. Another similarly word rule is Orks Dok's tools "...He confers Feel no pain to his unit..." also the SM Narthecium "... all models in his squad have feel no pain USR...". Nether of these mark the IC as gain them but since they say unit (or squad) have the rule should IC also gain it since they to are part of the unit (or squad).

Also in the case of Mad Dok Grotsnik (with Dok's tools) he could never give Feel No Pain to any one but himself. In which case why not just give him the FNP USR?

So ... any IC that joins a unit with stealth would then gain the cover save as well...


Suddenly makes sticking Maugan ra into a unit of pathfinders very appealing. Or Eldrad too come to think of it.

Its a rules interpretation that I wasnt willing to make since it gives such a huge edge to an eldar army, but so be it if thats the general thought trend. Have to dig out a few more eldar rangers from the back shelf now


Sliggoth

Hmmm, Karandas in a wraithguard unit too... maybe with eldrad to make an indestructible unit; so many possibilities to abuse now, wow.

Sliggoth wrote:So ... any IC that joins a unit with stealth would then gain the cover save as well...


Suddenly makes sticking Maugan ra into a unit of pathfinders very appealing. Or Eldrad too come to think of it.

Its a rules interpretation that I wasnt willing to make since it gives such a huge edge to an eldar army, but so be it if thats the general thought trend. Have to dig out a few more eldar rangers from the back shelf now


Sliggoth

Hmmm, Karandas in a wraithguard unit too... maybe with eldrad to make an indestructible unit; so many possibilities to abuse now, wow.

Was that sarcastic? It's hard to tell over the Internet.

Sliggoth wrote:So ... any IC that joins a unit with stealth would then gain the cover save as well...


Suddenly makes sticking Maugan ra into a unit of pathfinders very appealing. Or Eldrad too come to think of it.

Its a rules interpretation that I wasnt willing to make since it gives such a huge edge to an eldar army, but so be it if thats the general thought trend. Have to dig out a few more eldar rangers from the back shelf now


Sliggoth

Hmmm, Karandas in a wraithguard unit too... maybe with eldrad to make an indestructible unit; so many possibilities to abuse now, wow.

Just remember that if your stick people with path finders that they'll only get a +1 cover save as the pathfinder rule only effects pathfinders.

Gwar! wrote: Was that sarcastic? It's hard to tell over the Internet.

I'm an optimist I think he's come round

Since I had never really thought this interpretation was possible, it was kind of first thoughts off of my head.


This is definitely going to surprise my local group tho, because I do run units of wraithguard at times ... going to have to add karandas to them and see how hard of a unit that will be to take down.

Opens up a whole new area of thought really. And Im not so sure that the pathfinders wouldnt give +2 to any IC that joins them then, the wording seems to indicate that the squad receives +2...so using the word squad to mean same as unit that would seem to be the same thing.



Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:Since I had never really thought this interpretation was possible, it was kind of first thoughts off of my head.


This is definitely going to surprise my local group tho, because I do run units of wraithguard at times ... going to have to add karandas to them and see how hard of a unit that will be to take down.

Opens up a whole new area of thought really. And Im not so sure that the pathfinders wouldnt give +2 to any IC that joins them then, the wording seems to indicate that the squad receives +2...so using the word squad to mean same as unit that would seem to be the same thing.



Sliggoth

The rules say "any cover save THEY use". "They" refers to Pathfinders, not the squad, else it would say "the Squads cover save"

Gwar! wrote:

Sliggoth wrote:Since I had never really thought this interpretation was possible, it was kind of first thoughts off of my head.


This is definitely going to surprise my local group tho, because I do run units of wraithguard at times ... going to have to add karandas to them and see how hard of a unit that will be to take down.

Opens up a whole new area of thought really. And Im not so sure that the pathfinders wouldnt give +2 to any IC that joins them then, the wording seems to indicate that the squad receives +2...so using the word squad to mean same as unit that would seem to be the same thing.



Sliggoth

The rules say "any cover save THEY use". "They" refers to Pathfinders, not the squad, else it would say "the Squads cover save"

True, but since the majority of the squad has the save at +2 that's the cover save you use. IIRC it's around p.24 or so where they talk about units with multiple civer saves. (BRB is in the basement, and I'm in bed reading, so someone else will have to confirm or deny this).

Kyrolon wrote:True, but since the majority of the squad has the save at +2 that's the cover save you use.

A good point, but unrelated to the Pathfinder Stealth rule

Indeed it is(unrelated), the stealth rule itself is not passed on even though the benefit is.

Stealth rule adds +1 to a units cover save ... unless your a pathfinder in which case they get +2. There's nothing in saves, or cover saves, rules that force you to take the majority save. So you take the best save available, which for a IC joining pathfinders might be their cover save +1.