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Jpr wrote:

bigtmac68 wrote:I did play three test games agains my own mech vet list ( its all over the place so i wont re post it here) with my Salamanders on Wheels list that is over in Army Lists.

My opponent tried going after the bikes, hiding from the bikes and even using the tanks to shield the chims, but I was very single minded and the crazy mobility of the army makes it very hard to protect the Chimeras from that many meltas multi meltas ( its the multi meltas that really kill you here due to the ease of getting side shots at 24" range)

I was going to test it more heavilly but cant afford to buy that many bikes before 7-11 so im back to testing my Mech Vet ( which rocks and I love, but everyone is ready for )

Aren't the 'Sallies on Wheels' sort-of vunerable to lash?

yes they can be. They do have 2 things going for them though. First is the fact that a lot of people are shying away from lash due to all the mech thats popular now, or at least thats the trend in my area. Second, and this is build dependent, is that they can use land raiders to block LoS to bikers until they are ready to strike. The version I'm testing has a second land raider and terminators as opposed to the biker command squad bigtmac uses. I can hide a good amount of bikers behind 2 sideways land raiders. I just have to hope they survive the oblits lascannons lol

Yes, Sallies on Wheels is kind of an reaction to the expected increase in mech armies. Like all armies it has weaknesses and Lash is one of them. One of the things I have done to adjust to lash is to go MSU bikers instead of smaller numbers of larger squads to minimize the impact of lash.

I am also running 3 AC/LC preds which do very well against Lash princes and transports for Lash sorcerors. With them, the skimmers and the land raider with vulcan and terminators the list should be able to respond well even if the troop choices are vulnerable to lash.

Its all still in the experiemental stage though, we will have to see how it does against the full range of Ard Boyz lists.

Wow, sallies on wheels over Whitescars...good job GW. Can Chaos make a "mirror" bike-mech list?

Remember Lash needs LoS to get to the bikers. In the scenario Khornatedaemon describes it would be very tough to maneuver around the Land Raider early on to Lash the bikers. The Landraiders are extremely likely to curvive the Lascannon shots coming from the Oblits since only 1/6 of hits have a change to score a penetrating hit, and then only 1/3 of penetrating hits kill a Land Raider. Princes with wings can get around to the sides to try and lash on turn 2 perhaps, which is a danger. It may be worth taking a Librarian as a second HQ choice in order to get the Psychic Hood in there to stop things like that. He can also take Nullzone which is huge against things like Jetcouncils, Nob Bikes, Daemons, etc.

Caffran9 wrote:Remember Lash needs LoS to get to the bikers. In the scenario Khornatedaemon describes it would be very tough to maneuver around the Land Raider early on to Lash the bikers. The Landraiders are extremely likely to curvive the Lascannon shots coming from the Oblits since only 1/6 of hits have a change to score a penetrating hit, and then only 1/3 of penetrating hits kill a Land Raider. Princes with wings can get around to the sides to try and lash on turn 2 perhaps, which is a danger. It may be worth taking a Librarian as a second HQ choice in order to get the Psychic Hood in there to stop things like that. He can also take Nullzone which is huge against things like Jetcouncils, Nob Bikes, Daemons, etc.

You can only do that if you skip vulkan as you have to have the Captain on a Bike to make the bike squads troops which is the key to the army.

Can Chaos make a "mirror" bike-mech list?

Sadly no, I would love to do a "LustWing" biker army but Chaos bikes cant be troops and that kills it before it even gets started.

right, and I knew that (biker commands are one of my favorite units in the SM codex lol), I'm not sure what I was thinking there. Good catch

I'd love to take a null zone libby but like bigtmac said I'd have to skip on Vulkan. With the way I roll I feel I need vulkan as missing clutch melta shots can be a game loser.

bigtmac68 wrote:Sadly no, I would love to do a "LustWing" biker army but Chaos bikes cant be troops and that kills it before it even gets started.

Why is it necessary that the bikes be troops? Aren't you still going to have Rhino-Marines? I would think your troops would just ride in the Land Raiders and a couple more in rhinos, then 3x Biker squads.

EDITED FOR QUOTES. I fail at quoting. :(

whitedragon wrote:

bigtmac68 wrote:Sadly no, I would love to do a "LustWing" biker army but Chaos bikes cant be troops and that kills it before it even gets started.

Why is it necessary that the bikes be troops? Aren't you still going to have Rhino-Marines? I would think your troops would just ride in the Land Raiders and a couple more in rhinos, then 3x Biker squads.

EDITED FOR QUOTES. I fail at quoting. :(

nope actually. The lists we are tossing around just use bikes as troops

Bikes are really amazing troops-so difficult to hurt while turbo-boosting around and the amount of melta, especially with vulkan, is staggering. 4 for each unit including a combimelta and a multimelta...moving 12 inches and firing? for 200 points? lol.

Guessing the list is:

Commander on bike with command squad of doom
vulkan
assault termies with land raider redeemer
3-4xbike squads with 2 meltas, combi melta, multi melta
4+? Land speeders with heavy flamers/multi meltas
3 preds with hb/autocannon

?

Sounds pretty sick to be honest..could have easily 10 multi meltas all being able to move 12 and fire lol. Anything with side armour below 12 is going down extremely fast.

Jpr wrote:Bikes are really amazing troops-so difficult to hurt while turbo-boosting around and the amount of melta, especially with vulkan, is staggering. 4 for each unit including a combimelta and a multimelta...moving 12 inches and firing? for 200 points? lol.

Guessing the list is:

Commander on bike with command squad of doom
vulkan
assault termies with land raider redeemer
3-4xbike squads with 2 meltas, combi melta, multi melta
4+? Land speeders with heavy flamers/multi meltas
3 preds with hb/autocannon

?

Sounds pretty sick to be honest..could have easily 10 multi meltas all being able to move 12 and fire lol. Anything with side armour below 12 is going down extremely fast.

Thats about what bigtmac is using, except he uses AC/las preds.

The list I'm tossing around is:
Vulkan
Bike capt
2 units of assault terminators in redeemers
5 bike squads with 2 meltas and MM attack bike
2x2 MM/HF speeders

Pretty close, Khorneatedemon and I have two slight variations based on one or two land raiders but the core is all about crud loads of bike squads. For it to work it absolutely requires them to be troops as that is what allows you to take tons of bikes and still plenty of support. The bikes are not the support, they are the core thats what is different with Chaos as Chaos does not have that capability, they also dont have speeders or attack bikes making a fast striking melta army impossible for them.

There are plenty of very solid Chaos builds, but wihtout speeders and attack bikes, a solid biker strike army is not one of them.

There are some interesting comparisons if you run it as a ravenwing instead of as space marines. You aren't buying vulkan for the twin link, and you don't get an uber killy command squad. You do get an av14 speeder for objective grabbing, and troop mowing.

But you can get smaller scoring units and more scoring units at that. The three man bike squad with 2 meltas and an attack bike x6. They give you the added benefit of being fearless, which negates weaken resolve. And the benefit of the attack bikes being separate than the regular bikes (plus the downside for kp). Plus all the bikes are getting scout.

Its an interesting comparison, the ravenwing ends up being more mobile, but I think the regular marines end up with a bit better of a punch.

I would love to run it as Raven Wing, that was my first army back in 2nd edition. I love the visual of a wall of black and white bikes racing across the field, but it's the twin linked that makes them so effective. Also having the TH/SS terminators with Vulcan is much more solid overall than the a single AV14 skimmer.

Still, I do like it quite a bit and the fearless thing cant be underestimated with Weaken Resolve running around all over the place.

bigtmac68 wrote:There are plenty of very solid Chaos builds, but wihtout speeders and attack bikes, a solid biker strike army is not one of them.

Using the bikes as the core just feels wrong if they are led by Vulcan...but *shrug*. I'm always just looking at the chaos and marine books and trying to figure out how they "mirror" up ya know? On another note, if you are going bike heavy, wouldn't it be better to bring along Khan, and then you could free up your other HQ choice for a librarian. You lose the linked meltas, but with that many, do you really need it?

whitedragon wrote:

bigtmac68 wrote:There are plenty of very solid Chaos builds, but wihtout speeders and attack bikes, a solid biker strike army is not one of them.

Using the bikes as the core just feels wrong if they are led by Vulcan...but *shrug*. I'm always just looking at the chaos and marine books and trying to figure out how they "mirror" up ya know? On another note, if you are going bike heavy, wouldn't it be better to bring along Khan, and then you could free up your other HQ choice for a librarian. You lose the linked meltas, but with that many, do you really need it?

Im not a big fan of Khan, if I went without Vulcan I would just use a basic Captain with a Libby or a second captain for two command squads. The thing about that twin linking is that it changes the dynamic from two squads per statistic kill to one squad per statistic kill. That may not sound like much but it actually ends up being a near doubling of effective firepower by vastly increasing the number of targets that can be sucessfully engaged per turn. Sallies on Wheels annihilates Mech Vets while standard Marines Bikes or White Scars is more of an even match.

What remains to be seen is how well sallies on wheels does against the rest of the metagame and thats not something I will be able to test until after round 1 which is coincidentally the day after I get my quarterly bonus check and can buy the bikes I need to run sallies. It will really depend on what the word is on how many IG we expect in the Regionals , and if I make them as Im playing at a store that is expecting a very big showing for the first round.

As for Chaos and SM mirors, this is just one of those that emphasises the differences between SM and CSM. CSM have fewer strong FA choices(well actually none IMO), SM have awesome FA choices and the ability to take them as troops to boot. CSM cant mirror that.

Since I'm not from the US, when is the Ard Boys tournament?

Round one is July 11th or 12th for some people.

With the way I roll I pretty much need vulkan if I ever want my melta's to hit. Although even with re-rolls they tend to epicly fail.

I managed to borrow the bikers i need today so 3 weeks of intense testing is about to commence. I have 2 marine, 1 chaos and a mech vet opponent lined up to test against for now.

bigtmac68 wrote:As for Chaos and SM mirors, this is just one of those that emphasises the differences between SM and CSM. CSM have fewer strong FA choices(well actually none IMO), SM have awesome FA choices and the ability to take them as troops to boot. CSM cant mirror that.

Well, what really intrigues me is the number of special weapons that Chaos can take if they want to, and they can all mech up relatively cheaply. The cheapo termicide squads also give you access to Land Raiders, freeing up Heavy Support slots for other wacki-ness.

For example...a Mech Chaos list can take more meltas in rhinos/land raiders, and still include bikes. Hell, you can have 5 man plague marine squads with 2x meltas too.

So

Lash Sorcerer

3x Termies with combi melta
Land Raider

3x Termies with combi melta
Land Raider

10 CSM's with 2x melta (in Raider)
10 CSM's with 2x melta (in Raider)

Bike squad with 2x melta
Bike squad with 2x melta

Predator
Predator

Or, you can take Havocs, or Cult troops, or Demon Princes, or Lesser Demons, or anything else, and have a pretty wacky tough Chaos Mech list that seems to mimic the style of the tougher mech Marine lists.

Five man Plague Marine squads with 2x melta & power fist in a rhino is perfect.

G

whitedragon wrote:

bigtmac68 wrote:As for Chaos and SM mirors, this is just one of those that emphasises the differences between SM and CSM. CSM have fewer strong FA choices(well actually none IMO), SM have awesome FA choices and the ability to take them as troops to boot. CSM cant mirror that.

Well, what really intrigues me is the number of special weapons that Chaos can take if they want to, and they can all mech up relatively cheaply. The cheapo termicide squads also give you access to Land Raiders, freeing up Heavy Support slots for other wacki-ness.

For example...a Mech Chaos list can take more meltas in rhinos/land raiders, and still include bikes. Hell, you can have 5 man plague marine squads with 2x meltas too.

So

Lash Sorcerer

3x Termies with combi melta
Land Raider

3x Termies with combi melta
Land Raider

10 CSM's with 2x melta (in Raider)
10 CSM's with 2x melta (in Raider)

Bike squad with 2x melta
Bike squad with 2x melta

Predator
Predator

Or, you can take Havocs, or Cult troops, or Demon Princes, or Lesser Demons, or anything else, and have a pretty wacky tough Chaos Mech list that seems to mimic the style of the tougher mech Marine lists.

Sure there are great Mech builds for chaos, but the Sallies on wheels list is not a mech list with bikers, its a biker list with tank support. Chaos can make an awesome version of the former but cant even try the latter due to the inability to take bikes as troops.

Im not dissing the capabilities of the Chaos Dex, just pointing out that it does not have the variety of FA choices of the Marine dex, nor the ability to take Bikes as troops needed for a true biker army.

bigtmac68 wrote:
Sure there are great Mech builds for chaos, but the Sallies on wheels list is not a mech list with bikers, its a biker list with tank support. Chaos can make an awesome version of the former but cant even try the latter due to the inability to take bikes as troops.

Im not dissing the capabilities of the Chaos Dex, just pointing out that it does not have the variety of FA choices of the Marine dex, nor the ability to take Bikes as troops needed for a true biker army.

No offense taken, I just like discussing the differences/similarities between the Chaos and Marine dexes, especially for someone wanting to do Traitors as Loyalist counts as! Although I probably should start a new thread instead of driving yours further OT.

Hey BTM, I think you are over paying for your vet squads unless you have some wargear you're not listing in your list.

I figure:
Vets 70
3 Meltas 30
Chimera 55
155

Heavy Stubber on the Chimera maybe?

Yup, stubbas FTW, Only at 2500, but those extra 21 shots per turn, on the move, come in pretty handy for 70 pts.

bigtmac68 wrote:Troops – Infantry Squad, Flamer, Krak, Melta Bombs – 65pts
Troops – Infantry Squad, Flamer, Krak, Melta Bombs – 65pts

Am I missing something, shouldn't these two squads be 70pts a piece?

Infantry Squad 50pts
Flamer 5pts
Melta Bombs 5pts
Krak Grenades 10pts


I'm looking to get back into playing Guard and have found your (and others') battle reports very useful in giving me some starting ideas for a build. Cheers.

Nope your right, fixed the listing.

Great battle report, seeing those pics makes me miss gw fm. Im looking froward to going back there on a regular basis after a 4 yr college break.

After reading this thread, I have a few observations.

1) I understand your reservations to taking the PBS, but its a unit that honestly does not cost alot of points, I mean 180ish for a unit in a chimera is not a waste in 2500 even if your opponent take a counter to it. Just because guard, sm, eldar and nids have a counter to it does not mean they will take it.

Also remember the best defense for imperial armies is the daemonhunter hood, but most marine lists will be taking 2 hqs, most guard armies will be taking 2 cmd squads, most sister armies will be taking 2 canoses, and if your playing a daemon hunter army then you already have enough of a advantage a hood won't matter.

So these armies are left with the elite inquisitor with a hood. Problem is hes LD 8 so hes already at a disadvantage vs the major powers like lash, doom, etc....which means most players will not take them.

2) Orks, chaos don't have a pbs def....they will save you from nob squads and give any non fearless chaos units major problems.

3) I think you are worrying about tau too much. Now im assuming your playing at granite run.....which to my (limited) knowledge will not have very many people at ard boys. Do your homework see if you can figure out what armies will be there, this will allow you to plan better. No point in preping to play tau if there are not going to be any there.

I myself am playing at a loc near pgh (trying to repeat another first place showing) thats going to have about 40-50 people playing at ard boys and in an environment of that size its almost impossible to plan. If your going to a place like that then you plan for the major armies and if you have to be weak to something then make it tau, necrons, daemon hunters etc.

This way you can be pretty sure most of these armies will not get threw the 1st round so as long as you don't play them first round you should be fine. Nothing is prefect so you might as well stack the odds in your favor and be ready for the popular armies.

One of the problems with Tau is that certain builds can do really well against Mech IG, but then will lose to most of the other big power builds. If you avoid Tau in the first round, you probably won't play them in a later round.

40k is getting more of a rock-paper-scissor metagame. But, rock is MEQ and played 1/2 the time, and scissors is only played about 1/10 times. So, you can play paper and know that at worst, you will draw 9/10 of your games.

40k is getting more of a rock-paper-scissor metagame. But, rock is MEQ and played 1/2 the time, and scissors is only played about 1/10 times. So, you can play paper and know that at worst, you will draw 9/10 of your games.

I think that may be why I am having such little luck with the PBS in my test games.

Here MEQ is more like 70% it seems. Then there is Orks and Demons and I dont need the PBS for Orks at 2500. I just have sooooo many guns. The pair of rolling demolishers seems to do much better for me than a single demolisher and PBS. The way im running now I have 14 meltaguns, 6 plasmaguns, 10 lascannons, 8 multilasers, 7 Heavy Stubbas, 2 rocket pods, 2 demolisher cannons, 4 plasma cannons, 10 heavy flamers, 6 flamers and 2 vanquisher cannons. All that in 14 vehicles 10 av 12, 4 av 14.

I should take comfort in the fact that if I cant find test games for them locally, I should not expect to face them at the local qualifyer.