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Kaaihn wrote:After noticing from this thread that the assault moves tell you that you must use the standard movement rules though, it is looking to me like this method has been wrong. You declare an assault unit to unit, not unit to half a unit. If you want to assault a unit that has someone in difficult, you can't unless you have the ability to go in to difficult yourself. By being told to use the standard movement rules, that means you have to declare you are moving in to difficult, and roll. Otherwise, you aren't allowed in to the difficult per the normal movement rules, and I don't see anything in the assault rules to give an exception to not use that movement rule.

It does look like it is supposed to be an all or nothing situation to me. The side benefit is, that is perfectly clean, you don't have to count models, envision the order things will move and end up and who will have room to move around who, etc.

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So Gwar, you're saying that if I have a unit spread out across half the table with a model in cover 20" away from the assault, the assaulting unit still has to roll for difficult terrain, even tho there is no conceivable way for them to reach the model in cover?
Or am I misreading what you're saying?

don_mondo wrote:So Gwar, you're saying that if I have a unit spread out across half the table with a model in cover 20" away from the assault, the assaulting unit still has to roll for difficult terrain, even tho there is no conceivable way for them to reach the model in cover?
Or am I misreading what you're saying?

That is exactly what I am saying because that is what the rules state.

Personally, I'd use the answer in the old FAQ, Assault rules haven't changed that much. I know you don't care for them, but they are useful guidelines.

"If this means that any of the charging models has to enter difficult terrain to engage an enemy, the entire unit must take a difficult terrain test before the first charging model is moved (so the entire unit could fail to reach altogether!)."
So you would only have to test if there were models you can actually reach. Pure, RAW, you may be correct, but in this instance I would have to apply the anti-idiocy clause.........

don_mondo wrote:So you would only have to test if there were models you can actually reach. Pure, RAW, you may be correct, but in this instance I would have to apply the anti-idiocy clause.........

The problem with that is, where does it stop? You change the rules there and slowly slowly you stop playing 40k and start Playing Househammer 40k. Much simpler just to stick to the rules regardless of the effect.

I generally side with RAW, but I agree with don on this. If none of the models have to enter DT, it doesn't make sense to take the test. Yes, that isn't RAW, but there's also 'making the game fun for both players'.

There is no evidence I can find in the rules (and I did read all quotes so far in this thread) to suggest that if an assaulting unit has absolutely no chance of entering terrain during their assault movement that they still have to make a difficult terrain test.

The only stipulation concretely presented in the rules is on page 36:

"If, following the rules for moving assaulting models, ny model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move, the unit must take the relevant test before moving."


If the assaulting unit's total movement is in sufficient to possibly reach *any* of the terrain obscuring the path to the defending models then then we can unequivocally reason that NO models from the assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of their assault move.

While the rules on page 33 do prohibit pre-measuring before declaring an assault, after declaring the assault no such prohibition is listed. As such it is perfectly legitimate (and inherently required) for a player assaulting a unit in terrain to check to see if any of his models may be assaulting through terrain before moving any models.

So I'm not sure why people keep saying 'RAW' when the actual rules as written don't say what is being claimed.

The difference I see between what Gwar! is saying and what Yakface is saying looks to hinge on exactly what it is you are assaulting.

In Gwar!'s interpretation, you are assaulting unit to unit. There is no way to declare you are assaulting only a part of a unit. Since assault rules tell you explicitly you are bound by the movement rules with the 1" exception, that looks to mean that to declare an assault against the unit in difficult, you would need to declare before moving you are attempting to move in to difficult terrain. You can't get pulled in because an unoccupied model is in range in terrain, you must declare you are trying to get in, otherwise the assault can't happen.

In Yakface's interpretation, you declare unit to unit, regardless of whether partial of that unit is in terrain or not, then eyeball where everyone will end up and decide whether it is possible to meet all the assault placement requirements without entering terrain. If so, don't test. If not, test, and then you are bound by the roll and initiative penalty.

I think the intent is correct in Yakface's, but the RAW is correct in Gwar!'s. Having been doing it pretty much exactly as Yakface described myself, I can absolute say it is a pain in the rear. I hate having to eyeball the order the models will move and guess who will end up where and how much space there will be for bases to guess whether I would have to go into terrain or not. Using Gwar!'s method in this case would a much cleaner way of doing it, but both will work. I wouldn't object to whichever way my opponent wants to go, we just need to both be doing the same thing.

Kaaihn wrote:I think the intent is correct in Yakface's, but the RAW is correct in Gwar!'s.

I agree with this statement. The Intent is actually pretty clear I think. Well, as clear as anything else. But, In my Opinion, The rules just do not support the "intent".

We KNOW the intent is correct in Yak's (and my) assertion, since we have previous GW FAQs that specifically address this issue.............
And eyeballing isn't necessary. As pointed out, once the assault is declared but before anything moves, you can go ahead and measure.

That isn't always true at all though Don_Mondo. There have been plenty of times that you have to eyeball where models will end up so you can guess how to measure. Do I measure around that models base, or will it in theory have moved out of my way first? That kind of thing.

It is manageable, it can just be annoying.

Eyeballing is pretty easy when you've got 5 models assaulting a 10-model unit with only 3 of them in cover/terrain...

I don't see the RAW argument saying that the above would cause a Difficult Terrain check for the assaulting unit.

You measure your assault range after you declare your assault, if you find one of your models is going to 'have to' go through difficult terrain to get to a model in reach while at the same time contacting as many models as possible, then that is when you find out if a difficult terrain test is needed.

A hypothetical situation is this (and a very real possibility too)

If you are playing Apocalypse, and your opponent has a 100+ green mob, and the very rear guy happens to be the only one in difficult terrain and is clearly over 12" away, would you then claim the assaulter must roll difficult terrain test?

No, of course not. You measure after you declare your charge and find out if one is necessary first.

The rules to support this are in the very first line on page 36. "..if any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult terrain or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move, the unit must take the relevant terrain test before moving." If you have no models going through difficult terrain, no test is required, and it says before 'moving', not measuring, and you measure before you move, so any idea of not being able to measure after you declare an assault is not correct.\

EDIT

I generally side with RAW, but I agree with don on this. If none of the models have to enter DT, it doesn't make sense to take the test. Yes, that isn't RAW, but there's also 'making the game fun for both players'.

I disagree with this, page 36 (listed above) tell us it is a model to model basis. If no attacking models need to enter DT, then no test is required. That is the RAW

I do not agree with Gwar! I agree with Yakface. Betcha won't put that in your sig

RAW does not support Gwar! in any way. Yes you do declare assaults against units but you determine DT on a model by model basis while following the rules for moving into assault -- which is after declaring assaults. That is RAW.

I still think it can be tricky to premeasure and know for sure you can avoid DT and still follow the rules for moving models into assault but I guess in those close cases you will need to work something out with your opponent.

I agree that page 36 says that the intent is model by model. However, you are told specifically to use normal movement rules. In normal movement rules, you absolutely may not voluntarily enter difficult without first declaring the unit is entering.

So, when you declare an assault, are you declaring your assault only against the models outside the terrain? No, you are declaring your assault against the unit. That means you just technically declared an assault against a model in difficult, which cannot be accomplished without also declaring your intent to enter difficult. Hence Gwar!'s RAW interpretation.

Page 36 alone tells me I wouldnt be rolling if no models need to go in terrain to meet all the assault requirements. But you don't use page 36 alone, you use it in conjuction with page 34, which must also be used in conjunction with pages 11-14. Page 14 especially has bearing to this issue, since it is the page that details moving into difficult terrain.

In practice I play it that I eyeball whether any models would enter difficult and roll if I would need too, to satisfy the assault requirements. I don't believe that is RAW, but it seems to be a happy middle ground between my opinion of RAW and RAI on this.

But we all agree that by Superspecialawesome RaW if even 1 Model is in Difficult Terrain the Assaulting unit must test before they make their assault move?

Gwar! wrote:But we all agree that by Superspecialawesome RaW if even 1 Model is in Difficult Terrain the Assaulting unit must test before they make their assault move?

I do not... yet. I still don't see the RaW argument for it. There was another thread regarding the meaning of "normal movement rules", possibly more than one, for a different rule or 12. I'm not 100% on what they were (though Biker assaults comes to mind). All of them have differing uses of "normal movement rules" that just don't jive.

Remember that measuring during movement is perfectly legal, and we're using "normal movement rules" during this part of the assault phase.

Wow, it really seems that most of you completely skipped over yak's post.

Pg 36 Assaulting THROUGH Cover

If, following the rules for moving assaulting models, any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move...

So if the assaulting squad must move Through terrain to assault, then it counts as assaulting through terrain (this includes if even one model must move through it). If the defending squad is partially in terrain, but you do not have to move Through terrain to assault him, then there is no penalty.

RAW right there.

Axyl wrote:Wow, it really seems that most of you completely skipped over yak's post.

Pg 36 Assaulting THROUGH Cover

If, following the rules for moving assaulting models, any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move...

So if the assaulting squad must move Through terrain to assault, then it counts as assaulting through terrain (this includes if even one model must move through it). If the defending squad is partially in terrain, but you do not have to move Through terrain to assault him, then there is no penalty.

RAW right there.

This is to what I'm referring, as well.

And you all seem to have skipped over mine too
-shrug-

I just disagree with it.

So are you allowed to say that you are declaring your assault against certain models, but not others? Because if I declare my assault against a model in terrain, and follow normal movement rules, I would be declaring I am moving into difficult else it would be impossible to assault that model.

If, once I declare my assault and entry to difficult I find I don't have to be in base to base with that model to fulfill the assault requirements, then I won't be. But I would still have had to roll difficult to even begin the criteria of assault. To skip that step means I am declaring I am only assaulting the models in a unit that are outside the terrain.

I don't think you can declare to only assault parts of a squad, you are either assaulting the whole thing or none.

Actually, after re-reading through this thread I think I may have mis-interpreted some stuff.

If any model in a squad will move through terrain (thus causing a terrain check) when assaulting then you strike at initiative 1 (unless you have assault grenades). Should be no more difficult than that.

Gwar might be right, I dunno. It's not really worth a two page argument.

The very first move of your assault is fairly cut and dry. After which, you can move your models in whatever 6" way you want to in order to get into base-to-base contact - albeit following normal rules for movement. This means that you can, indeed, measure and avoid entering difficult terrain. Given that you can measure during movement, it would go as follows:
1. Declare Assault
2. Measure to see if the closest models are indeed within 6" (12" for beasts and cavalry)
3. Measure to see if any models will have to enter said terrain
4. Apply DT test if applicable
5. If DT test prevents said assault - FAIL! DO NOT PASS GO!
6. If DT test still allows assault - PROFIT!

Axyl wrote:If any model in a squad will move through terrain (thus causing a terrain check) when assaulting then you strike at initiative 1 (unless you have assault grenades).

I believe - without the BGB with me - that it also refers to the assaulting squad moving through terrain. It's a big difference between that and referring to both squads.

Gwar! wrote:
If they hired me to clean up the FAQ's for a month I think I'd be getting decelerations of love and marriage via post.

somewhat off topic, but this statement intrigues me...

Flinty wrote:

Gwar! wrote:
If they hired me to clean up the FAQ's for a month I think I'd be getting decelerations of love and marriage via post.

somewhat off topic, but this statement intrigues me...

Because I would actually fix the major Problems with Erreta, not crappy wishy washy FAQ's. GW's excuse of "not everyone has the internet" is bs. Either you play without the Erreta with your mates, in which case everyone is on equal footing, you get the erreta off a mate from your local club who does have net, or you man up and get internet/go to a Internet Cafe if you are heading to a Tournie.

Edit: Post #4444. Woot!

Gwar! wrote:

Flinty wrote:

Gwar! wrote:
If they hired me to clean up the FAQ's for a month I think I'd be getting decelerations of love and marriage via post.

somewhat off topic, but this statement intrigues me...

Because I would actually fix the major Problems with Erreta, not crappy wishy washy FAQ's. GW's excuse of "not everyone has the internet" is bs. Either you play without the Erreta with your mates, in which case everyone is on equal footing, you get the erreta off a mate from your local club who does have net, or you man up and get internet/go to a Internet Cafe if you are heading to a Tournie.

I do, however, support Gwar's sentiment on this.

::edit for prepositionfail::

The rules stink. I think Gwar!'s interpretation is correct. None of the answers avoid fistfights though.

We try to play it where you:

1.) Declare assault
2.) Measure closest to closest (but don't move)
3.) Check to see if it is POSSIBLE for ANY of the assaulting models to get into base to base with ANY model in difficult terrain
4.) If so - you MUST roll for difficult terrian
5.) If not, you don't

This avoids people gaming difficult terrain on both sides - people who try to avoid going into difficult terrain by moving their assaulting unit in a way that technically follows the rules, but finds a way to avoid going into base to base with a guy in difficult terrain...and people who try to put one dude in difficult terrain to force a check no matter where the charge comes from.

But...I have little rules justification for this, other than using Yakface's interpretation that pre-measuring is only not allowed BEFORE declaring assaults, not after. It's still sketchy, but it helps avoid fights. Until, of course, you play someone outside your gaming group and the whole argument starts again...sigh.

lambadomy wrote:The rules stink. I think Gwar!'s interpretation is correct. None of the answers avoid fistfights though.

We try to play it where you:

1.) Declare assault
2.) Measure closest to closest (but don't move)
3.) Check to see if it is POSSIBLE for ANY of the assaulting models to get into base to base with ANY model in difficult terrain
4.) If so - you MUST roll for difficult terrian
5.) If not, you don't

This avoids people gaming difficult terrain on both sides - people who try to avoid going into difficult terrain by moving their assaulting unit in a way that technically follows the rules, but finds a way to avoid going into base to base with a guy in difficult terrain...and people who try to put one dude in difficult terrain to force a check no matter where the charge comes from.

But...I have little rules justification for this, other than using Yakface's interpretation that pre-measuring is only not allowed BEFORE declaring assaults, not after. It's still sketchy, but it helps avoid fights. Until, of course, you play someone outside your gaming group and the whole argument starts again...sigh.

that is exactly how page 36 says. First sentence too.

Gwar, I have to admire the unbending approach you take to RAW.

I'm on the fence about this one though, as an Ork I want to have my assaults work, and if I can't reach terrain, I don't want to have to roll for it. Most days I don't even bother shooting with my sluggas, so I could potentially be in range of multiple units I could legally assault. If a dev squad is 3 inches away but has one member in trees that are 10 inches away, I don't want to have to rely on my luck to not roll a 1 or 2 when I could have reached the tactical squad 5 inches away in the same direction without having to roll.

At the same time, this interpretation may be the most beautiful thing I've ever seen, as I can't tell you the last time I saw anyone at my local club buy frags for a unit that didn't already have them. With 1 Ork boy in trees, 29 stringing along to the other end of the table. Oh, lookie... you assaulted me without grenades! I1 for you! *Roll brick*.

So Gwar... what tournaments do you judge for, and how much swag can I get for winning them? In return, you can sig me all day long!