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Gwar, you did a great job in quoting the rules, but a lousy job in showing how they support your assertions.


If the assaulting unit does not have to go into difficult terrain, there is nothing in the rules stating they need to take a difficult terrain test.

If part of the target unit is in terrain, but the assaulting models will not go there... then there is absolutely no reason to roll a DiffT test.

Yes, you declare an assault unit to unit, fine. There is absolutely no rule that says you must roll a diff terrain test just because some of the target unit is in difficult terrain. At least no rule that you have shown.

Lets use Don Mondo's example. A long string of orcs, and some stealers are assaulting one end, and the other end has one ork in difficult terrain. What rule states the stealers need to roll for difficult terrain?
They are not moving through difficult terrain....

Malecus wrote:Gwar, I have to admire the unbending approach you take to RAW.

The problem, is he has an unbending approach at assuming that his view is RAW, regardless of what the rules say.

Malecus wrote:Gwar, I have to admire the unbending approach you take to RAW.

Appriciated.

Malecus wrote:So Gwar... what tournaments do you judge for, and how much swag can I get for winning them? In return, you can sig me all day long!

None because I live in the Middle of Nowhere ;( When I move to Dublin sometime in the Winter I might get some done there

padixon wrote:

lambadomy wrote:The rules stink. I think Gwar!'s interpretation is correct. None of the answers avoid fistfights though.

We try to play it where you:

1.) Declare assault
2.) Measure closest to closest (but don't move)
3.) Check to see if it is POSSIBLE for ANY of the assaulting models to get into base to base with ANY model in difficult terrain
4.) If so - you MUST roll for difficult terrian
5.) If not, you don't

This avoids people gaming difficult terrain on both sides - people who try to avoid going into difficult terrain by moving their assaulting unit in a way that technically follows the rules, but finds a way to avoid going into base to base with a guy in difficult terrain...and people who try to put one dude in difficult terrain to force a check no matter where the charge comes from.

But...I have little rules justification for this, other than using Yakface's interpretation that pre-measuring is only not allowed BEFORE declaring assaults, not after. It's still sketchy, but it helps avoid fights. Until, of course, you play someone outside your gaming group and the whole argument starts again...sigh.

that is exactly how page 36 says. First sentence too.

Not quite. Page 36 says "...if a model will have to ...". That is different than Lambadomy's method of "if a model could". In Lambadomy's description, if an attacker had a choice between an unoccupied model in terrain within 6", and also an unoccupied model outside terrain within 6", he would still roll to test as it is possible for one of his models to get in contact with one of the models in terrain.

That is a nice middleground method if both people agree to it I think.

The only problem I have with seeing the RAW as something other than what Gwar! describes is that there is no ambiguity to the rule for entering difficult terrain on page 14; your unit must declare they are doing it before making any move. So if you assault a unit that has a model in difficult, but don't declare you are moving in to difficult, you are not allowed to step foot in the terrain using normal movement rules.

Remember, you make the assault attempt if you declare, whether you are found to be in range or not. Being within range determines if you succeed or fail. Regardless of the outcome, you made the attempt. If you don't declare to enter the difficult (so are not allowed in by normal movement rules), then how can you the attempt to assault a model in difficult? You are saying that you declare to assault that model as it is part of the unit you are declaring against, but refuse to enter difficult to do so. Wouldn't that automatically fail the assault?

This can absolutely lead to some gamey sounding tactics, like stringing a unit far forward with one model with a toe in difficult to force the attacker to roll difficult. It seems completely correct by the RAW, but it isn't how I choose to play it.

Kaaihn, I am not sure what you are concerned about. Yes, if any of the assaulting models will have to enter terrain, they unit needs to roll a test.
If the no models have to enter terrain, then the unit does not have to roll a test.

Why is that a problem?

There's RAW. And then there is playing the game.

This is one of those cases, where whatever the RAW says, I don't see a TO enforcing the strict RAW interpretation, I think they'd play like Yakface suggested. And I think if you insisted on playing otherwise, you'd run out of friends to play against. The game is meant to be fun, and we're supposed to be good sports.

Assaulting models still have to base as many as they can. If you have a ridonkulous squad of 30 Boyz and a Warboss assaulting a string of units with the last one in terrain, and no model is further than 6" from the Orks, you have to attempt to base up every single model, which in this case would mean the last guy who is in terrain.

If you only have three Orks, however, then yes, you can get away with it.

coredump wrote:Kaaihn, I am not sure what you are concerned about. Yes, if any of the assaulting models will have to enter terrain, they unit needs to roll a test.
If the no models have to enter terrain, then the unit does not have to roll a test.

Why is that a problem?

I don't have a concern or a problem. I noticed that there were people in my store playing it in very different ways, and it made me curious how others in many different areas play it. Hence the title of the post being "how do you play it", not "what is the RAW for...".

It spawned a discussion of what the RAW method is, but that is to be expected in a forum devoted to what the RAW answer is. I don't care what method my opponent uses, as long as I don't feel like they are adapting their method based on the situation to gain an advantage.

The problem is that there are situations where you CAN avoid going into difficult terrain, but also could end up in the terrain, depending on how you handle the charge move.

For example, say you have 3 charging models, and 5 defenders. The defenders are all close together, and two of them are in difficult terrain.

Following the steps in the charge rules (closest to closest, stay in coherency with someone who has moved, charge someone not in base to base already) you can just charge the three guys who are not in the terrain and call it a day.

The problem with this (gameplay wise) is that as the squads get larger and the situations less clear, it is possible to game the charge based around the "in coherency with a model that has already moved" to avoid going into the terrain. And the only way to figure out what might happen is to move all of the models. Which is of course a terrible way to make a decision about whether or not you needed to check for difficult terrain (well, I moved everyone and successfully avoided the terrain, guess I don't need to check - OR - well crap I couldn't do it, lets move them all back and then roll the check). There are situations where you can have, say, 4 models charging 5, with 2 in cover, and successfully avoid moving into the cover by abusing the "in coherency with someone who has already moved" part of the charging rules, for example. A result you wouldn't WANT based on the INTENT of the rules, but very doable.

So you have to figure out if you need to make the check based on something other than just "would they have to enter terrain" because they technically may be able to avoid it, with clever charging. You have to do it more on a "would they actually be able to charge the person in terrain, even if the charger will try to do some kind of gaming of the charge to avoid this"

It is definitely not RAW, unless you take sentences from the rulebook like "If you follow this sequence you will end up with all the models in the assaulting unit in coherency, having engaged as many enemy models as possible with as many assaulting models as possible" (bottom pg 34)as a RULE instead of just an interpretation of what they HOPE happens with their dumb rules. This also applies to the sentence "Assaulting units must attempt to engage as many opposing models as possible with as many of their models as possible - no holding back" (2nd paragraph, page 34). This is useless as a rule once you follow the "must end its assault move in coherency with someone else who has moved" rule. As assaults get larger, there are plenty of ways to game this to avoid actually having this result.

lambadomy wrote:The problem with this (gameplay wise) is that as the squads get larger and the situations less clear, it is possible to game the charge based around the "in coherency with a model that has already moved" to avoid going into the terrain. And the only way to figure out what might happen is to move all of the models. Which is of course a terrible way to make a decision about whether or not you needed to check for difficult terrain (well, I moved everyone and successfully avoided the terrain, guess I don't need to check - OR - well crap I couldn't do it, lets move them all back and then roll the check).

I don't think anyone has ever argued that RAW is easy. In this case, yes indeed, the most effective barometer is whether or not you can do it, and then if not, moving the models back if you fail the DT test.

There are situations where you can have, say, 4 models charging 5, with 2 in cover, and successfully avoid moving into the cover by abusing the "in coherency with someone who has already moved" part of the charging rules, for example. A result you wouldn't WANT based on the INTENT of the rules, but very doable.

This is overridden by the attacker having to base as many models as possible.

So you have to figure out if you need to make the check based on something other than just "would they have to enter terrain" because they technically may be able to avoid it, with clever charging. You have to do it more on a "would they actually be able to charge the person in terrain, even if the charger will try to do some kind of gaming of the charge to avoid this"

Declare the charge, measure to see if the furthest models can reach each other, and if so, roll Difficult Terrain to find out how far you are able to assault. It's really not that hard.

"How do I play it?" is the question at hand. Generally, I lean toward Yak's interpretation and away from Gwar's.

RAW is a myth and appeals only to those suffering from OCD. GW does not believe in, nor promote it with their "fast and loose" system. Yea, based on page two's Most Important Rule, it seems they believe in RAMF (rules as mutually fun).
I personally ascribe to RAWWR! - rules as written when reasonable!

The real 'myth' here is the idea that RAW says you need to roll a diff terrain test just because some of the target unit is in terrain. That is *not* what the rules say.

Kaaihn: I did not mean in general, I was specifically asking about the post right above mine. I was not sure what the problem was that you were describing. Sorry I was not clear.

dietrich wrote:There's RAW. And then there is playing the game.

This is one of those cases, where whatever the RAW says, I don't see a TO enforcing the strict RAW interpretation, I think they'd play like Yakface suggested. And I think if you insisted on playing otherwise, you'd run out of friends to play against. The game is meant to be fun, and we're supposed to be good sports.

But I AM pointing out the RAW. . .playing by the RAW means that if no models from the assaulting unit can possibly enter difficult terrain while making their assault moves then no test is needed.

Others have (correctly) pointed this out as well.

1) You declare your assault.
2) You must then see if assaulting the enemy may possibly result in your assaulting models entering difficult terrain (which requires measurement).
3) If there is absolutely no chance that your unit will have to move through terrain (either they don't have sufficient movement distance to do so or the formation of the enemy unit completely precludes the possibility) then the assaulting unit does not have to take a difficult terrain test.


All of this is logically supported by the rules.


Now, exactly what happens when an assaulting unit may possibly end up charging through terrain (i.e. it appears as though they may or may not have to move through the terrain depending on how the assault moves play out) is something that is not explicitly covered by the RAW, so players have to end up making some assumptions on how to play in this situation.

But that does not change the fact that if all models in the unit cannot possibly end up moving through terrain with their assault moves then there is nothing in the rules supporting the idea that they have to take a difficult terrain test.

Gwar! wrote:

Flinty wrote:

Gwar! wrote:
If they hired me to clean up the FAQ's for a month I think I'd be getting decelerations of love and marriage via post.

somewhat off topic, but this statement intrigues me...

Because I would actually fix the major Problems with Erreta, not crappy wishy washy FAQ's. GW's excuse of "not everyone has the internet" is bs. Either you play without the Erreta with your mates, in which case everyone is on equal footing, you get the erreta off a mate from your local club who does have net, or you man up and get internet/go to a Internet Cafe if you are heading to a Tournie.

Edit: Post #4444. Woot!

I was actually trying to highlight the amusing typo in the original post

"Decelerating Love" sounds like a particularly poor band name

GWAR read the thing you just quoted, very slowly and multiple times (you may notice a highlighted word!)

if any model in the assaulting unit needs to go through difficult terrain...

Now please explain me why i NEED to roll if i can reach a model standing out in the open?

I would hope anyone GW hires to clean up their "Erratta" could spell the word at least.

Yes, I am "decelerating" my disdain for Gwar!.

Anywho, the rules say exactly what Yak/Don/Core are saying, and how my group plays it.

Gwar's assertion is a homebrew easyfix.

yakface wrote:But I AM pointing out the RAW. . .playing by the RAW means that if no models from the assaulting unit can possibly enter difficult terrain while making their assault moves then no test is needed.

Thanks for pointing that out.

I think a good way of thinking of this, which happens to support Yak's idea, is to consider the attacking/defending units in different situations.

Say, a 1 man unit charges two terminators which are both within 6", but the farthest is in cover. The 1 man needs to charge the nearest terminator, which precludes him from getting into cover. So NO dt roll.
Say now a 2 man unit charges the same terminators. The second man has to charge the terminator in cover (to fulfill the maximizing btb contact, if I am not mistaken). Since he has to move through cover to not break that rule, he needs the roll.
Now, assume the above situation, but with 3 terminators, with 2 out of cover. The charging fellows can declare that they do not intend to enter the cover (as per the movement rules) since they can choose to engage only the outter two terminators (fulfilling the max base to base requirement). Thus no dt roll is needed.
Now, yet one more example, say there are two IG charging two terminators, with one terminator in cover. However, the terminator in cover is >6" away (measured AFTER the charge was declared, which is legal). Since the IG can not possibly make contact with that terminator, the requirement to be in base to base with him is removed, and so both IG can charge the fellow out of cover, and thus declare that they have no intention of going into cover, and avoid the DT roll.

*whew*

So, the rules of thumb would seem to be:

1: Are there >2 models in the attacking unit that are within 6" of a model that requires moving through cover to be in BTB? (Remember that the closest two models need to make contact.)
2: If so, are there enough models in the defending unit that do not require moving through cover to satisfy the BTB maximization requirement?

If 1 is false, you do not need to move through cover as you can not reach the models in cover with anyone.
If 1 is true but 2 is also true, then you don't need to move through cover as you can satisfy your BTB requirement without moving through cover.
Otherwise, you need to make the roll.

Wehrkind wrote:I think a good way of thinking of this, which happens to support Yak's idea, is to consider the attacking/defending units in different situations.

Say, a 1 man unit charges two terminators which are both within 6", but the farthest is in cover. The 1 man needs to charge the nearest terminator, which precludes him from getting into cover. So NO dt roll.
Say now a 2 man unit charges the same terminators. The second man has to charge the terminator in cover (to fulfill the maximizing btb contact, if I am not mistaken). Since he has to move through cover to not break that rule, he needs the roll.
Now, assume the above situation, but with 3 terminators, with 2 out of cover. The charging fellows can declare that they do not intend to enter the cover (as per the movement rules) since they can choose to engage only the outter two terminators (fulfilling the max base to base requirement). Thus no dt roll is needed.
Now, yet one more example, say there are two IG charging two terminators, with one terminator in cover. However, the terminator in cover is >6" away (measured AFTER the charge was declared, which is legal). Since the IG can not possibly make contact with that terminator, the requirement to be in base to base with him is removed, and so both IG can charge the fellow out of cover, and thus declare that they have no intention of going into cover, and avoid the DT roll.

*whew*

So, the rules of thumb would seem to be:

1: Are there >2 models in the attacking unit that are within 6" of a model that requires moving through cover to be in BTB? (Remember that the closest two models need to make contact.)
2: If so, are there enough models in the defending unit that do not require moving through cover to satisfy the BTB maximization requirement?

If 1 is false, you do not need to move through cover as you can not reach the models in cover with anyone.
If 1 is true but 2 is also true, then you don't need to move through cover as you can satisfy your BTB requirement without moving through cover.
Otherwise, you need to make the roll.

That's what I was trying to get at earlier. You put it in a much more concise manner.

How about this to help some of you understand the RAW of this rule:

Since you have to follow all normal movement rules for assault with the exception of the 1" rule, turn it around and apply the same movement rules to the unit that you intend to assault that has one model in difficult terrain.

That unit has to move as slow as it's slowest model. One model in difficult terrain will force the entire unit to take a difficult terrain test to move.

So to assault this unit that has the conditions and restrictions of being in difficult terrain, you would have to roll for difficult terrain to see if you can even assault in the first place.

Brother Ramses wrote:How about this to help some of you understand the RAW of this rule:

Since you have to follow all normal movement rules for assault with the exception of the 1" rule, turn it around and apply the same movement rules to the unit that you intend to assault that has one model in difficult terrain.

That unit has to move as slow as it's slowest model. One model in difficult terrain will force the entire unit to take a difficult terrain test to move.

So to assault this unit that has the conditions and restrictions of being in difficult terrain, you would have to roll for difficult terrain to see if you can even assault in the first place.

Sorry, but backwards logic does not work. Since the assaulting unit is the unit that is moving, the part of the "move as slow as it's slowest model" rule to which you are referring would only apply if the assaulting unit was in difficult terrain at the beginning of the declared assault.

If you wanted to use your logic, it would mean that you would have to apply rules that affect one unit at a given time to every single unit on the board.

So if the unit you are planning to assault is considered to be in difficult terrain, per the rules in the BRB, you just simply choose to ignore that condition?

This seems like an awesome Catch-22 statement.

If you can reach the models, you must go through cover and therefore can't reach them. However if you can't reach them you're not going through cover and therefore can reach them....

Brother Ramses wrote:So if the unit you are planning to assault is considered to be in difficult terrain, per the rules in the BRB, you just simply choose to ignore that condition?

If the assaulting unit doesn't need to enter that terrain in order to conform to the rules of moving assaulting units, of course I would ignore it.

Gwar! wrote:

LunaHound wrote:
You know Gwar , if GW have hired you while their web forum was still up , they might not have to close it down.

If they hired me to clean up the FAQ's for a month I think I'd be getting decelerations of love and marriage via post.

IS it a burden carrying that large of an ego around all the time?

Heres the thing. Following the rules for moving, you may not enter difficult without declaring prior to moving. If you don't declare, you may not enter.

If, following the rules for moving, any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult as part of it's assault move, it must take the test prior to moving. That is reiterating the standard difficult movement rule and telling you it applies to the assault move.

Now, set aside the whole assault a unit versus assault a model bit, and assume we can do it by model for the moment.

You declare your assault of your five guys versus the enemies six guys, one of which is in difficult terrain. If you don't declare to enter difficult right now, before you move a single model, you will not be allowed in.

Say you choose not to declare. You start moving your five guys and are able to get each of them into base to base with an unoccupied model outside difficult. Perfect, all five attacking models are in coherency, and are in base contact with enemy models that are not in base contact with anyone else.

So, same example, you don't declare, but when you start moving you find that due to tight quarters you can only get four of your guys in base to base with unoccupied models. You have a fifth guy that must attempt to get to base to base. The sixth guy in the defending squad is within 6" of your unoccupied model, but is in difficult. You didn't declare difficult before moving, you aren't allowed to go in to the terrain after him. So...the assault does not fail! Read the assault criteria. You must move to an unoccupied model if possible. That sixth guy isn't possible, so you move to satisfy the next criteria, which is to be in base to base with a model already in base to base with an enemy. If that fails, you just get within 2" of one of your other models that is in base to base, or, baring that, that model isn't part of the fight right now, just stay in coherency.

Think about that for a moment. By not declaring difficult, I can dogpile my five guys on one lone enemy model outside difficult, even if there are 20 enemy models right behind him, but in difficult. They will join the fight on pile-in, sure, but I just short circuited the assaulting through cover penalties. Unless you are assaulting an enemy that is fully in difficult, you could bypass the assault penalties every time. Is that really any different abuse than the idea of stringing a unit out so the one rear-most model still in difficult forces the attacker to roll no matter what?

Think about that for a moment. By not declaring difficult, I can dogpile my five guys on one lone enemy model outside difficult, even if there are 20 enemy models right behind him, but in difficult. They will join the fight on pile-in, sure, but I just short circuited the assaulting through cover penalties.

No,No,No. You measure before moving. If you have models within range of enemies in DT and no other models to get into contact with, you take the DT test. There is no "declaring" or "not declaring" you MUST move into combat with as many enemies as possible, so measure it and figure it out before moving. Pretty simple.

Nurgleboy77 wrote:

Think about that for a moment. By not declaring difficult, I can dogpile my five guys on one lone enemy model outside difficult, even if there are 20 enemy models right behind him, but in difficult. They will join the fight on pile-in, sure, but I just short circuited the assaulting through cover penalties.

No,No,No. You measure before moving. If you have models within range of enemies in DT and no other models to get into contact with, you take the DT test. There is no "declaring" or "not declaring" you MUST move into combat with as many enemies as possible, so measure it and figure it out before moving. Pretty simple.

The overarching rule of assault is that every model must attempt to engage, which is defined as making an assault move. An assault move is a move that follows all standard movement rules, plus a specific list of constraints plus the 1" exception.

The key in my example is "as possible". By normal movement rules, if you don't declare before moving that you are going in to difficult, you are not allowed in at all. So it would not be possible to get in base to base with the models in the terrain. Page 14. The only time you are told you 'must' go through difficult would be if the straight line from closest to closest goes through difficult. The other times it is left up to you and how you make your assault move.

If you don't declare difficult, you move as many of your models as possible into base to base with the enemy. That would be only the enemy outside terrain, as it is not possible to go after the ones inside since you didnt declare and roll before moving. If closest to closest isn't through terrain, and you don't declare difficult, the assault still succeeds. All the rest of your models must now move following normal movement rules, with some additional constraints as listed on page 34.

The first constraint is stay in coherency, the second is get to base to base if possible with an unoccupied model. If the only unoccupied model in range is in difficult you aren't allowed to enter, that model isn't possible to reach. It most definitely does not say the assault fails if this happens; you just go to the third constraint, which is go to base to base if possible with a model already in base to base. If not possible, be in support range, if that isn't possible, just stay in coherency.

Just so it doesn't get lost, remember for the sake of argument we are stipulating that you don't have to roll difficult automatically just because one model of the targeted unit is in difficult. I don't think this is RAI, but it looks correct by pure RAW, setting aside the one stipulation.

How Kaaihn is describing is how I've been playing it.

I agree with Kaaihn.

I think the most important statement of the assault rules is that you move your closest model to their closest model FIRST, before any DT tests are made. Thus if the first model is within range and doesn't have to make a DT test, then the assault MUST be able to occur.

Kaaihn wrote:
The overarching rule of assault is that every model must attempt to engage, which is defined as making an assault move. An assault move is a move that follows all standard movement rules, plus a specific list of constraints plus the 1" exception.

The key in my example is "as possible". By normal movement rules, if you don't declare before moving that you are going in to difficult, you are not allowed in at all. So it would not be possible to get in base to base with the models in the terrain. Page 14. The only time you are told you 'must' go through difficult would be if the straight line from closest to closest goes through difficult. The other times it is left up to you and how you make your assault move.

If you don't declare difficult, you move as many of your models as possible into base to base with the enemy. That would be only the enemy outside terrain, as it is not possible to go after the ones inside since you didnt declare and roll before moving. If closest to closest isn't through terrain, and you don't declare difficult, the assault still succeeds. All the rest of your models must now move following normal movement rules, with some additional constraints as listed on page 34.

The first constraint is stay in coherency, the second is get to base to base if possible with an unoccupied model. If the only unoccupied model in range is in difficult you aren't allowed to enter, that model isn't possible to reach. It most definitely does not say the assault fails if this happens; you just go to the third constraint, which is go to base to base if possible with a model already in base to base. If not possible, be in support range, if that isn't possible, just stay in coherency.

Just so it doesn't get lost, remember for the sake of argument we are stipulating that you don't have to roll difficult automatically just because one model of the targeted unit is in difficult. I don't think this is RAI, but it looks correct by pure RAW, setting aside the one stipulation.

You keep mentioning the basic movement rules for moving into difficult terrain but those are the basic (general) rules. The assault rules are more specific regarding difficult terrain and therefore must be obeyed.

In particular: Assaulting models *must* end their move in certain ways and doing so may force them to enter terrain. I know you have quoted "where possible" as the exception to them not having to enter terrain, but that doesn't match up with the rule given on page 36:

"If, following the rules for moving assaulting models see page 34), any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move, the unit must take the relevant terrain test before moving."


This passage is crystal clear that when FOLLOWING the rules for moving assaulting models on page 34, any model that HAS TO (i.e. is 'forced to') go through difficult terrain means that the unit will have to take a difficult terrain test.

Depending on what enemy unit you are assaulting you do not have a choice. . .the rules for moving assaulting models may dictate that you must do so.

Trasvi wrote:I agree with Kaaihn.

I think the most important statement of the assault rules is that you move your closest model to their closest model FIRST, before any DT tests are made. Thus if the first model is within range and doesn't have to make a DT test, then the assault MUST be able to occur.

That is incorrect. As shown in the rule I quoted above you must make a judgement call before moving the unit and take a difficult terrain test if you believe that your models will have to enter terrain as part of their assault.