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Math players get so frustrated when their math doesn't work in games. On the one hand every IG list I see has a million Meltaguns riding in Chimera's. On the other hand you expect marines to take LR varients that must get close against this? Who cares if you can assault one vehcile when everything else jumps you afterwards?

Lascannon LR's have what the other LR's don't have, versatility. Each game is different and the original LR can have the tactical flexibility to either sit back and shoot or charge forward to deliver marines into the line.

I find the idea that lascannons are not good at popping transports at range laughable. There is no statistic to calculate how valuable it is for the LR to shoot at transports that can't shoot back!!!! All Multi-melta platforms must get into range to the enemy weapons to shoot, the Lascannon platforms do not because of their increased range.

Another thing to consider is that the Predator can't move at all to get more than one Lascannon to fire. The LR doen't have this problem.

It's a good tank, it's a versatile tank and it has its place in tier 1 lists.

DarthDiggler wrote:
It's a good tank, it's a versatile tank and it has its place in tier 1 lists.

Thats debatable.

I beleive it under certain circumstances. Others I know also believe it. I'm not really willing to debate it here though...its not the point.

You made some really good points though Darth.

Deadshane1 wrote:
Sourclams has made several points, all of which would be true REGARDLESS of what type of Land Raider you're taking. Godhammer (or phobos for the Fluff nutters) Crusader, OR redeemer. Statements that illustrate how the LR is ineffecient at stopping transports are beside the point.

That's not quite true. Crusaders and Redeemers are excellent vehicles able to deliver a massive assault payload while providing close-in support firepower. The primary armament of a Land Raider is the guys inside. This has been said by lots of people, not just myself. Stelek's Raider Rush 'Ard Boyz list, for example, is still quite good.

What I would ask Sourclams, is, if you have such a problem with the views forwarded here, what is YOUR opinion on how best to run a Standard Land Raider? If your point is simply..."Don't"...then I fail to understand what your objective is in this thread.

To counter the tendency of the Bandwagon crowd to start hailing the standard Land Raider as the IWIN button in Net Deck lists. This thread is getting filled with posts of 'I started shooting down rhinos and now it's awesome!' I realize that there are people who are sick of their Land Raiders dying, but even if it lives, it's still not necessarily useful due to the relative weakness of its primary armament.

This thread is about how to run a LR effectively, maybe not in a Tier 1 list. Maybe simply because one likes the model. Maybe because you're trying to prove something to yourself, who knows? I'm not necessarily targetting the winningest players on the circuit with this tactica. Maybe there are some people out there that could use some help with this army selection on how to run it most effectively.

You've created a good Tactica on how to keep it alive, and how to get some use out of its limited firepower. I've pointed out how even if it survives the entire fight it's still going to have to punch above its weight to have a lot of impact. I have no ulterior motive to ruin anyone's fun, just indicating that the elephant in the corner is still there.


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DarthDiggler wrote:
It's a good tank, it's a versatile tank and it has its place in tier 1 lists.

This is exactly what I mean. My point isn't to say DEADSHANE!!! YOUR POST SUXXORS!!! Standard Land Raiders are generally viewed as being sub-optimal, there's a reason for it, and if new players are going to get use out of a unit tactica, they have to be made aware of all the things that make a unit not a good choice as well as how to maximize its utility.

You forgot to take in account the multi-melta which I think is now a de facto standard choice for the plain Jane vanilla landraider. The heavy bolter cannot hurt chimeras and can only glance rhinos but a couple of them are good for shooting troopers.

What makes the landraider so strong is the new version of the PotMS rule. The rule is a lot better now for vanilla Space Marines.

Personally I prefer the crusader variant but I use mine for a different role. When I do break out my DW I field two plain Jane landraiders for the lascannons.

G

The multimelta is actually a pretty strong argument against the standard LR. Since you can't move and fire all three guns, if you expect to make extensive use of the multi you have to either sit stationary in which case just buy the Predator, or ignore a lascannon sponson. You're better off using a LRC and dakka-ing infantry squads while PotMS melta-ing any vehicles.

That said I'd still certainly take the multi melta, but if you intend to utilize it significantly you're better off with one of the other patterns.

Land raider spam w/ multi meltas and vulkan has worked well for me. Better than well in fact. I benched the Crusader after seeing the usefulness of the standard land raider. If only salamanders still got heir melta invulnerability...

There's not much reason to move the plain Jane landraider unless it's absolutely necessary. You can fire the multi-melta at a separate target using PotMS and still hit on a 3+. Assuming you are tracking transports brimmed full of meltas you have the edge since they'll have to move into half range first. Vulkan is extremely popular now so it's not a stretch to assume the MM will count as twin linked most of the time. To me the addition of the MM is what really makes this tank shine over the other choices. I prefer to use the crusader since I typically play assault armies but I appreciate what the standard pattern has to offer. You can't dis the MM.

G

True, however 3 Land Speeders give you 3 MM for 25 points fewer than the Raider. If you want to max out Vulkan's effectiveness, then there's better opportunities than a standard Land Raider.

Sourclams post a battle report.

Yeah I would like to see a battle report. And by the way this thread is about landraiders not speeders. Maybe you can post a new thread about how you roll with the skimmers. Pls don't take what I say as derogatory towards you mate, I always find whatever you have to say very interesting, often quite entertaining for whatever reason. I've got no beef with you.

G

Post a battle report about what? A list with a Land Raider that would be better off with speeders?

Your prowess as a tabletop general for sure.

G

sourclams wrote:True, however 3 Land Speeders give you 3 MM for 25 points fewer than the Raider. If you want to max out Vulkan's effectiveness, then there's better opportunities than a standard Land Raider.

I concur. If you're running Vulkan, the MM speeders might be a better investment. But if your focus isn't Vulkan, and yet you do have him in the list, then the standard LR w/ MM might be okay.

Why in the world would you bring Vulkan if he wasn't the focus of your list...?

Hey it's easy to see that MM/HF spedders are the red hot snizzle with Vulkan. However there are things speeders can'T do that raiders can like hold a scoring unit on an objective.

G

sourclams wrote:Why in the world would you bring Vulkan if he wasn't the focus of your list...?

Maybe you like him because he looks nifty or perhaps you want him to mostly just boost the Thunderhammers in your list.

IMHO 40k is more than simple mathhammer.

Coming up with percentages of transports stopped per turn while ignoring other factors doesnt neccessarily give an accurate prediction of what will happen during a game.

Player A has a gunline army featuring a LR using the above tactics. Also makes use of lascannons elsewere in the list, possibly Krak missles as well.

Player B is using a Mech list that needs to get in close to pop armour due to reliance on melta.

Player A deploys in a tight formation to his right/left corner within terrain so that his expensive gunline elements can claim a cover save. LR hugs the table edge along with 2 smallish squadrons of Typhoons ready to jump out from behind terrain in order to pop the lead transports of the enemy.

Player B, thanx to terrain, is forced to deploy across his center due to terrain as he wants to avoid dangerous terrain tests. Many Transports equals a large army footprint making it difficult to consolidate your army at times while at the same time being able to protect key elements of the army.

This creates a situation for player B. A portion of his force will take longer to reach player A. In addition, Player B may have to deal with Terrain, Dangerous checks possibly immobilising his Transports, Traffic Jams, or even forward elements of the opposing force.

Whether player A stole the initiative or was going first normally is irrelevant. Going first is always a little better than a 50/50 split. (going first is obviously important in a Gunline army)

Basically, mathhammer doesnt hold up all the time. There are many variables in the game. Terrain placement, Luck, going first, unforseen tactics or surprises, and other things. Saying that a landraider will stop .96 chimeras a turn doesnt really mean much when all you're considering is the twin lascannons and the front armour of the Chimera. Come up with an accurate estimation after factoring in ALL battlefeild possibilities and then maybe we can talk.

When Player B's situation looks like this:

1. First Chimera reaches optimal melta range of Land raider in 3 turns unless LR advances....barring unforseen circumstances.
2. Most distant Chimera reaches optimal melta range to Land Raider in 4+ turns barring unforseen circumstances.
3. Player A's army features long range firepower with stopping Mechanised lists in mind with a slight ability to project in case objectives need to be contested.

...when the situation is like this, you cannot simply say.... "you're stopping X amount of Chimera's a turn." Stop them? Sometimes DELAYING them is enough to wrestle a victory from your opponent.

I've won games before with LR spam where I only got a single kill point over a 7 turn game....and the victory conditions were KILL POINTS. Thats range, thats resiliancy talking.

I've also won games with the same list by Tabling opponents....firepower.

Mathhammer doesnt always cut it.

sour clams is a stone cold disciple of theory and math hammer. That is why he NEVER posts any batreps.

G

Player A deploys in a tight formation to his right/left corner within terrain so that his expensive gunline elements can claim a cover save. LR hugs the table edge along with 2 smallish squadrons of Typhoons ready to jump out from behind terrain in order to pop the lead transports of the enemy.

Okay, so if I'm playing a "typical" IG list, and based on what you have outlined for terrain and deployment:

Player B outflanks via Valks/Vendettas into player A's corner castles on Turn2, and blows up both Land Raiders. The Chimera wall keeps rolling forward.

I agree, mathhammer by itself doesn't make or break a list, but you've got to come up with something more dynamic than:

1. Create Gunline
2. Protect Gunline
3. Win

The point isn't that each sponson stops .24 Chimeras a turn, it's that you're paying 250 points for a single unit that's still vulnerable to a plethora of Str10, Lance, and Ordnance weapons, and has approximately as much firepower as a 100 point Heavy Weapon Squad that passes its Bring it Down! leadership test.

I'm reading this Tactica and wondering why I shouldn't just buy a Rhino and a triple las Predator to park on an objective. If I stick the rhino in front of the Pred, I've got 3+ cover and both my maximum and average lascannon yield is higher than the Land Raider. As an added bonus, it's cheaper and I get two tanks that my opponent has to destroy.


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Green Blow Fly wrote:sour clams is a stone cold disciple of theory and math hammer. That is why he NEVER posts any batreps.

G

I don't post batreps because I don't take pics and people tend to ignore text-only. Quite some time ago I did a writeup of a game my 4th ed Guard had against a Tau list that was about 750 words long and the only response I got was from Stelek.

At my store lots of people ask me for advice on their lists, and I win the vast majority of games that I play. In the last tournament, I got first place. ::shrug::

sourclams wrote:
Player B outflanks via Valks/Vendettas into player A's corner castles on Turn2, and blows up both Land Raiders. The Chimera wall keeps rolling forward.

I love it.

One thread you say that lascannons cannot stop Rhino's...

...the next thread your Vendetta's are Acing my LR's (plural) with no problem.

I find your arguement strewn with gaping holes in logic.

Because melta vets.. which outflank via Vendettas/Valkyries... land on your corner castles... and blow up your Land Raiders. It's an obvious counter to a corner castling gun line like what you described.

I guess I need to type more slowly. Or we can go set it up on Vassal if you want.

sourclams wrote:

I agree, mathhammer by itself doesn't make or break a list, but you've got to come up with something more dynamic than:

1. Create Gunline
2. Protect Gunline
3. Win

The same can be said about...

1. Create Mech list
2. Move out
3. Win

The point isn't that each sponson stops .24 Chimeras a turn, it's that you're paying 250 points for a single unit that's still vulnerable to a plethora of Str10, Lance, and Ordnance weapons, and has approximately as much firepower as a 100 point Heavy Weapon Squad that passes its Bring it Down! leadership test.

You're missing the point. EVERYTHING is vulnerable to those weapons. Do we simply not bring LR's then? What about the things that other vehicles have major problems with that the LR's are immune to. Lootas, Guard Autocannon spam, Scatterlaser spam, side shot Kraks or lesser shots. Assaults by anything less than Melta or Monstrous....Just because a STR 10 weapon can get thru (penetrating only 33% of the time) doesnt mean that the unit isnt resiliant. That resiliancy is a trade off for the firepower it lacks...as much as a unit that has two twin lascannons, a heavy bolter, and a MM is lacking in Firepower.

...and while the LR is still vulnerable to those weapons, the current state of the game has most people spamming melta instead of massed long range firepower. If you can take out the ranged weaponry early and make the melta's walk, delayed or dead...well...lets just say a LR (or two) running around the battlefeild with no threats is a serious problem for an army...especially if its scoring.

I'm reading this Tactica and wondering why I shouldn't just buy a Rhino and a triple las Predator to park on an objective. If I stick the rhino in front of the Pred, I've got 3+ cover and both my maximum and average lascannon yield is higher than the Land Raider. As an added bonus, it's cheaper and I get two tanks that my opponent has to destroy.

Lootas, autocannons, snikrot, mobile units that get side shots, charging BASIC troops...basically, all the ADDITIONAL things that can take advantage of the weaker armour. if they get around your save.

I guess your opponents are never able to get around your 3+ cover save. You might try playing better opponents for a more well rounded veiwpoint.



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sourclams wrote:Because melta vets.. which outflank via Vendettas/Valkyries... land on your corner castles... and blow up your Land Raiders. It's an obvious counter to a corner castling gun line like what you described.

I guess I need to type more slowly. Or we can go set it up on Vassal if you want.

Yea, I guess people NEVER see that coming....EVER. I mean, who would? It's not like you can protect your LR's with troops or table edges if you suspect something like this might happen.

I'm betting that you never show up on the wrong side either when outflanking....and dice always bring you in on turn 2 right?

I suppose the loaded rhino and lascannon pred are immune to this tactic somehow?

Look, I'm not arguing that one of the newest codexes out can beat Space Marines. You're saying that killing LR's is a foregone conclusion though. Nothing you're saying here makes any difference whether its a standard LR, Crusader, or Pred/rhino.

Mech Guard can beat a space marine list with a LR in it. Wow, what a revelation.

...and if I managed to beat your Upper Tier take all comers guard on Vassal I suppose it would be "dice".

Ad hominem. Nice. If your Land Raiders are never dying, maybe the same should be said about you?

Here's the problems with the Land Raider in its current state that your Tactica hasn't helped me adapt to:

1. It's a 250 point model, and there's plenty of high strength long range guns out there. If a Medusa crushes my rhino, who cares, I've got 5 more. If a Medusa crushes my Land Raider, then 13% of my army is gone. Same applies for Termicide, outflanking meltas, turboing bikes or speeders, and all the other stuff that isn't an IG vet squad in a chimera but is just as deadly.

2. I don't want to dedicate 1,000 points in my list to babysitting 500 points of Lascannons. That's playing not to lose in the 2/3 of missions that feature Objectives, not playing to win. In the scenario that you created solely to school the Chimera wall rush, 2 outflanking skimmers with 200 points of guys in them ace 500 points of Land Raider. Marines can make a gunline, but Land Raiders aren't that great an addition to it.

3. Vulkan Marines, Dark Eldar, Paskquisher IG, Medusas, Lance Eldar, and Wave Serpent Fire Dragons are all things that I encounter regularly that love to eat Raiders for lunch. Parking in the backfield isn't going to win it for me, and neither is "firepower" that can't stop a SMF Wave Serpent.

If you have solutions to those 3 points, then great, I will love your Tactica advice.


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Deadshane1 wrote:

I'm betting that you never show up on the wrong side either when outflanking....and dice always bring you in on turn 2 right?

I know you don't like Mathhammer, but...

An Astropath brings on 2/3 Vendettas with melta vets in them (which is a very ordinary build btw, not some custom craziness) on T2 80% of the time.

The first outflanker has a 100% chance of landing where you want it because there's two corner castles. The second outflanker has more than a 90% chance of hitting the second edge.

I suppose the loaded rhino and lascannon pred are immune to this tactic somehow?

No, but it's cheaper and requires more effort to eliminate from outflanking meltas.

Look, I'm not arguing that one of the newest codexes out can beat Space Marines. You're saying that killing LR's is a foregone conclusion though. Nothing you're saying here makes any difference whether its a standard LR, Crusader, or Pred/rhino.

Because Land Raider rush is still very viable, and plays to the strengths of Marine armies at the shorter ranges where they excel. Making a shooty gunline is not something that they're remarkable at. If I have to change an entire army's tactics to make a couple sub-optimal units shine, I don't see what the point of the Tactica is. If you just want to have your Tactica and me butt out, say so and I'll quit bringing up counterpoints.

I have to say that I found this thread enjoyable and enlightening to say the least. I hadn't even realized that PotMS granted you a shot at a different target due to my tendency to skim over small print. I use a crusader presently, and I find that it is efficient at fighting the horde armies I usually end up playing, and a LR just wouldn't have the same potential until I find some decent enemies. However, I am intrigued at the possibilities and as I had originally planned for five LRCs in my army (3 heavy support, 2 as transports for termies and assault termies), I might change at least one of them to a LR for the objective bonus.
I don't mean to get on anyone's nerves about this, but I definitely agree about there being different variables that will determine hit percentage. It's definitely not only about mathhammer, because there are so many other things which will win the game for you. My neighbour's Eldar usually lose against me because he is always freaking out at my Land Raider and wasting half his forces trying to take it out, while my footslogging troops rush forward and demolish any resistance.
Personally, I don't see why anyone would take a redeemer because they are very impractical. You will hardly ever be able to fire both flamers on the same turn, because not even the 10 year old kid I play with sometimes is stupid enough to configure his guys into an easily flamable position when I proxxy the redeemer. By the time the redeemer gets close enough to be effective, it gets power klaw'd or melted.
Anyway, thanks for the article, it has definitely changed my perspective on the regular Land Raider variant and I can't wait until I can afford one...

sourclams wrote:Ad hominem. Nice. If your Land Raiders are never dying, maybe the same should be said about you?

Whatever Clams. You say a Mech list can beat a list featuring a LR. I dont have a problem with that. I'm just saying "big deal".

... thats not ad hominem.

I suspect your entire arguement on why this tactica is no help may be "Strawman" however.

1. It's a 250 point model, and there's plenty of high strength long range guns out there. If a Medusa crushes my rhino, who cares, I've got 5 more. If a Medusa crushes my Land Raider, then 13% of my army is gone. Same applies for Termicide, outflanking meltas, turboing bikes or speeders, and all the other stuff that isn't an IG vet squad in a chimera but is just as deadly.

2. I don't want to dedicate 1,000 points in my list to babysitting 500 points of Lascannons. That's playing not to lose in the 2/3 of missions that feature Objectives, not playing to win. In the scenario that you created solely to school the Chimera wall rush, 2 outflanking skimmers with 200 points of guys in them ace 500 points of Land Raider. Marines can make a gunline, but Land Raiders aren't that great an addition to it.

3. Vulkan Marines, Dark Eldar, Paskquisher IG, Medusas, Lance Eldar, and Wave Serpent Fire Dragons are all things that I encounter regularly that love to eat Raiders for lunch. Parking in the backfield isn't going to win it for me, and neither is "firepower" that can't stop a SMF Wave Serpent.


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Deadshane1 wrote:

I'm betting that you never show up on the wrong side either when outflanking....and dice always bring you in on turn 2 right?

I know you don't like Mathhammer, but...

An Astropath brings on 2/3 Vendettas with melta vets in them (which is a very ordinary build btw, not some custom craziness) on T2 80% of the time.

The first outflanker has a 100% chance of landing where you want it because there's two corner castles. The second outflanker has more than a 90% chance of hitting the second edge.

I suppose the loaded rhino and lascannon pred are immune to this tactic somehow?

No, but it's cheaper and requires more effort to eliminate from outflanking meltas.

Look, I'm not arguing that one of the newest codexes out can beat Space Marines. You're saying that killing LR's is a foregone conclusion though. Nothing you're saying here makes any difference whether its a standard LR, Crusader, or Pred/rhino.

Because Land Raider rush is still very viable, and plays to the strengths of Marine armies at the shorter ranges where they excel. Making a shooty gunline is not something that they're remarkable at. If I have to change an entire army's tactics to make a couple sub-optimal units shine, I don't see what the point of the Tactica is. If you just want to have your Tactica and me butt out, say so and I'll quit bringing up counterpoints.

All your points are valid, and I'll answer them ALL with this.

If a player wants to use a Standard LR in a game, not a Crusader, not a Redeemer, not Speeder, and not a rhino/pred combo, THIS TACTICA will help you do it to the best of the Standard LR's abilities.

I'll tack on that using these tactics enabled me to place 9th out of LOTS at the Adepticon Championship this year...undefeated. If this tactica and that sort of placing means "FAIL" to you then I guess our definintion of a good outing are a bit different.

No, I didnt go up against Mech Guard. Maybe I was lucky. I did however see plenty of transported melta, and two of the lists I went up against were indeed Mech lists. So I dunno what to tell you. Not that local gaming means anything to anyone, but I've had good results at RTT's and pick up gaming as well.

I think if you WANT to use a Standard Land Raider in your list, this tactica is the best way to do it. Thats what I think.

Telling someone who WANTS to use a Land Raider in their list...to go and pick up 3 melta speeders instead or use a rhino/pred combo....well...I think thats a little less help to them than this tactica would be if they're dead set on using a Land Raider.

Here is the thing with landraiders and deployment. Only a n00b is going to leave them out in the open. All good mech players know that you surround the meat with the shell. It's easy to keep meltas outside of half range and then hammer them with your lascannons. A lascannon automatically glances a speeder if it hits. I personally never use spedders for up close shooting... I prefer thhe Typhoon and Tornado since they can sit back and pound away.

G

First, thanks to Deadshane1 for taking the time to write a standard LR tactica.

Second, thanks to Sour Clams for putting forth a reasonable opposition position on his tactica.

It is this sort of interplay that makes posts like this enjoyable and useful.

Like usual, I agree with Darth Diggler.

I like the Land Raider because of its utility. To simplify things greatly, when you can outshoot your opponent, it helps you sit back and add to your fire base. If your opponent can outshoot you, it helps to greatly facilitate an assault.

You can build all kinds of armies that might easily take out Land Raiders, but the fact it that the odds are highly stacked in your favor that you will not meet up with the perfect list to counter your own.

You can say that every list out there has a counter for it. Even the top tier lists can easily be beat by certain rare combinations, but you have to play the odds. Nob bikers were winning everything last year and did it matter that a Seer Council on Jetbikes can beat them?

If I go to BoLSCon, I will bring 2 Land Raiders with me.

Agreed. sour clams was trolling again.

G

I know this is a bit OT but I do think the problem with the basic land raider is it TL Las Cannons don't perform well enough to A) to reduce the transport capacity and B) cost as much as it does.

ether the LR needs a points drop (220 and match the C.LR) or lose the TL and make the God hammer a weapon in its own right (Range 48" Str9 AP 2 Heavy 2 ... or .... Range 36" Str9 AP1 Heavy 2)