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Telion is horrendously over-rated. The fact that Scouts are poo notwithstanding he is, at best, a "flavour" model. For starters he has a Heavy 2 bolter. Yes, I know it's got a 36" range and it Rends and Pins, but at the end of the day it's still a bolter. Paying 50pts so your unit can sit still and either fire a bolter twice at a target up to 36" away OR get a BS6 Krak Missile just seems silly to me.

@ Spartanghost:

Are you really sure about that? It would seem a bit odd that they make characters that fit both according to fluff and looks (Icons etc) in a certain chapter. All non-ultramarine special characters, iirc, have special rules which apply to the rest of the troops (chapter tactics), which don't fit to troops of the ultramarine chapter. Just seems a bit weird to have, for example, Captain Lysander lead an all Ultramarine army, which then get's the imperial fist chapter tactics, instead of combat tactics which all ultramarines have? You might aswell have an Imperial Fist army then. My guess would be that they put those special cahracters in the Codex, so that most non-ultramarine chapters, can also use that codex. They get the chapter tactics for their chapter, without having to buy a whole new codex, with nearly to fully same statistics etc. In one of the latest WD editions, the writer of the new SM codex, also said that the minor & major drawbacks etc for chapters weren't there anymore (that was in the article about the new rules, troops etc from the new Codex).

I'm not sure about this, so that's why I'm asking. Although if you're right, it would explain why you can buy an Ultramarine Spearhead box which contains drop etc, but also Pedro Kantor of the crimson fists....which already seemed very weird to me....

It's perfectly true. Chapters and fluff don't enter into it; I could make a Chapter, call them The Emperor's Hairy Sailor-Boys, paint them turqoise, and have Lysander and Sicarius as my 2 HQ choices. There's supposedly a paragraph in the Codex that states such behaviour is perfectly acceptable as long as you do a bit of remodelling on the models or convert models in such a way so it's obvious which character they represent (although I can't remember ever seeing it).

Regardless, there's nothing in the army list to say the special characters can only be taken by X Chapter or Y Chapter, so it's all good.

Aaaah that's very interesting, should do a bit of reading on those characters then and see if they fit in my army. About the modeling: do you mean just getting rid of their respective chapter symbols? If they just team up as a sort of join operation you might aswell leave them the way they are, if you like the model ofc.

Only question I got left then: You gave the example of having both Sicarius & Lysander. I know it's just an example, but what would that mean for the rules? Do the imperial fist chapter tactics from lysander benefit on the army? And what if you also add Pedro Kantor? That'd get a bit complicated...unless you decide that one of the characters is the real leader, and the others just join in to help, without using their chapter tactics....

Frank Fugger wrote:Telion is horrendously over-rated. The fact that Scouts are poo notwithstanding he is, at best, a "flavour" model. For starters he has a Heavy 2 bolter. Yes, I know it's got a 36" range and it Rends and Pins, but at the end of the day it's still a bolter. Paying 50pts so your unit can sit still and either fire a bolter twice at a target up to 36" away OR get a BS6 Krak Missile just seems silly to me.

Second person to make the misconception that it can only fire like that ... true is it may fire as a range 36" Heavy 2, rending, pinning ... it can also fire like a normal bolter. Also picking off the high leader ship or other special models pays for it's self. BS6 works well with the heavy bolter when you're going up against high toughness models.

In the case of Lysander and Sicarius your eligible units would benefit from Lysander's Chapter Tactics and Sicarius' Chuck Norris-like awesomeness. Lysander has a Chapter Tactics rule and Sicarius doesn't; he's just so awesome that his mere presence is enough to bestow special abilities. Basically, using Lysander and Sicarius, you'd get a Stubborn Ld10 army.

In the case of two characters who both have Chapter Tactics rules, like Lysander and Kantor, you've got to choose whose Chapter Tactics would apply; and in this case you'd choose Kantor since his Chapter Tactics are the same as Lysander's, except they make your Sternies scoring units as well. Note this only applies to Chapter Tactics, so you might be using Kantor's Chapter Tactics but Lysander can still use his Bolster Defences and Bolter Drill rules.


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Tri wrote:Second person to make the mis conseption that it can only fire like that ... true is it may fire as a range 36" Heavy 2, rending, pinning ... it can also fire like a normal bolter.

Oh, well now, that makes all the difference! I was unaware that it could also be fired as a normal bolter! The prospect of a BS6 RRTH with a normal bolter doesn't exactly make me giddy with glee that I've just spent almost 4 Scouts-worth of points on this glorified Sergeant.

Also picking off the high leader ship or other special models pays for it's self. BS6 works well with the heavy bolter when you're going up against high toughness models.

There are two things wrong with this; first of all, mech lists don't have high leadership or special models. What they have is Armour Values, and I've yet to see a solitary pair of bolter dice make any difference against a mech list. Second of all, IT'S STILL A BOLTER. Just because it CAN Rend doesn't mean it's going to, so the good Sergeant is basically forcing his unit to sit still while he RRTHs two bolter shots at a PFist Sergeant and hopes against hope that at least one of them Rends. Most of the time, against T4 and above, they won't even wound.

Telion sucks. Scouts in general suck, but Telion sucks worse.

Not true. Any special character can be used in any army using the same codex. I had a thread a little while ago about this actually. It's surprising the amount of freedom you have with special characters.

Do you know of any posts that have more info on this, or maybe a direct quote from the codex.

Frank Fugger wrote:
Telion sucks. Scouts in general suck, but Telion sucks worse.

Why I ask why you think Scouts suck? My Sniper scouts perform highly in most of my games and I imagine adding Telion would make them even better.

Frank Fugger wrote:It's perfectly true. Chapters and fluff don't enter into it; I could make a Chapter, call them The Emperor's Hairy Sailor-Boys, paint them turqoise, and have Lysander and Sicarius as my 2 HQ choices. There's supposedly a paragraph in the Codex that states such behaviour is perfectly acceptable as long as you do a bit of remodelling on the models or convert models in such a way so it's obvious which character they represent (although I can't remember ever seeing it).

Regardless, there's nothing in the army list to say the special characters can only be taken by X Chapter or Y Chapter, so it's all good.

The absence of a rule does not a rule make. I'm going to clarify this with GW personel first--this seems all sorts of sketchy, as cool as it could be.

"You'll notice that the named characters in the Space Marines army list are drawn from several different Chapters, but they can still be used in the same army if you wish. This can represent the commen occurrence of different Space Marine Chapters fighting alongside one another. Alteratively, you can use the models and rules for named character to represent a mighty hero of a different Chapter - for example, using the rules and model for Marneus Calgar as the Chapter Master of the Imperial Fists, or a Space Marine Chapter of your own design - you just need to come up with a new name."
Pg. 127 Lower Right hand box titled Ultramarines and other Chapters in the Space Marine Codex.

So as long as he is named differently it seems you are good to go.

Eternal Newb wrote:Why I ask why you think Scouts suck? My Sniper scouts perform highly in most of my games and I imagine adding Telion would make them even better.

Because they're Guardsmen with a couple of 4's in their profile. Because they're neither shooty nor assaulty enough to be useful yet people insist on telling me they're awesome. Because people use them to fill out Troops slots and then wonder why their list fails it. Because, in the various games I've used them alongside my Radical DH list, I've yet to see a Camo Cloaked squad of 10 Scout Snipers with a Hellfire Bolter outperform my footslogging Termie Lord and his Grenade Launching Veterans in any capacity. Maybe I'm just using them wrong, or maybe I'm expecting too much from them, but to me they just seem utterly underwhelming considering the other Troops choices available to Smurf armies. Tactical Squads are awesome. Bike Squads are awesome. Why bother with Scouts?

And Telion is over-rated because his biggest draw is his BS6, which you may choose to use with either his boltgun (it's a boltgun, let's accept that fact and move on) or, potentially, the squad's Krak Missile. One or the other, not both in the same turn. Not that losing two BS6 bolter shots is a huge disadvantage, but for the cost of that BS6 Krak Missile you could get yourself three Tactical Marines, or (and this is the most shocking thing about Telion in my view) a Land Speeder. That's right; this BS6 RRTH model, this useless piece of piss, he costs the same as a light vehicle. Take Telion and the Heavy weapon out of your Scout squad and there's a nice MM Speeder for you to play with.

Both Telion and Scouts in general need to get cheaper or get better to be worth considering, especially if you live in an area where mech lists are de rigeur. As it stands they're expensive filler at best.

General_K wrote:The absence of a rule does not a rule make. I'm going to clarify this with GW personel first--this seems all sorts of sketchy, as cool as it could be.

There's no need for a "rule" on this; the special characters have entries in the C: SM army list, and as such can be used with any army. Look:

Eternal Newb wrote:"You'll notice that the named characters in the Space Marines army list are drawn from several different Chapters, but they can still be used in the same army if you wish. This can represent the commen occurrence of different Space Marine Chapters fighting alongside one another. Alteratively, you can use the models and rules for named character to represent a mighty hero of a different Chapter - for example, using the rules and model for Marneus Calgar as the Chapter Master of the Imperial Fists, or a Space Marine Chapter of your own design - you just need to come up with a new name."
Pg. 127 Lower Right hand box titled Ultramarines and other Chapters in the Space Marine Codex.

So as long as he is named differently it seems you are good to go.

See?

Rename him "Calgeus Marnar", or "Dave The Terminator-Man" or something and hey presto: The Emperor's Salty Sailor-Boys have a Chapter Master as awesome as the Ultramarines

Aaah it's completely clear to me now. Indeed everything gets explained on page 127, bottom right.

So you CAN use every special character listed in the codex, for every chapter, although GW doesn't want you to mess with their original fluff. For that reason they want you to just give the model a new name, and then use their original rules & statistics. That does make sense, because that way you can make all special characters, Ultramarine special characters, which give their tactics to your army (so the chapter tactics won't be out of the picture anymore, ultramarines using crimson fist only tactics....didn't think so, but apparantly they use lot's of different tactics nowadays).

It also says, that your opponent should be aware of what model has who's rules and what he stands for. It does NOT say your opponent needs to agree. So it's entirely your call. Quite cool that they give us that opportunity to customize.

So for the question if you can use Telion in an non-ultramarine chapter: yes you can

Backfire wrote:

Mekboy wrote:Only Telion has the rule. However, the rules state that 'the squad' gains plus 1 to covers saves. Hence it affects the entire unit.

However, Telion is not a squad (unless he is by himself), only single model within a squad.

There's already a thread discussing this, so I'll link to it.

Link