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The slow player that brings the relaxed "non tourney" attitude

Noun 1. Tourney - "a sporting competition in which contestants play a series of games to decide the winner"

There are no requirements to run fast turns that I am aware of, nor scoring points for finishing a game within so many rounds.

If a game goes to at least one complete turn and then ends then it’s done.

I have no doubt there are despicable folks who will look to see it they are ahead and try to slow things down and thus not allow another turn if they are ahead on whatever turn they are on at the moment. But they are few compared to those who will play at their normal rate of speed.

Telling horde players or any one else they 'Must" learn to play faster is rather foolish. It may be a tourney but it is also a game that folks play for enjoyment. Tourneys do not require one to "Move Faster" as a condition and if they did where is the fair standard of measurment to judge a player against if they were to try such a thing?

If one's game plan depends on one getting at least four turns of play to win I suggest that the one start looking for tourneys that allow a certain number of turns each game in spite of the time it takes, very unlikely now days, or adjust one's strategy. The "I will hold everything in reserves until turn 3" plan may be a problem if one only gets to the end of turn two.


A tourney that tries to run too many rounds and not allocate enough time for normal players to play up to 5 or 6 turns with Horde armies at their normal playing rate may as well add a "SIW" sticker to the front of their signup page.

Indeed. To play devil's advocate here there is no requirement here. Offering your "helpful advice" is just trying to impose your own problems on the other player and he may tell you just that.

A standard game of 40k plays for 5 to 7 turns. If you're playing less than that, some armies are penalized and some are rewarded. Would you line up to play a friend's slow-horde army and quit in Round 3 when ahead?

Sometimes, you just can't complete a game in the time alloted. Sometimes, it's because the orgnaizers didn't budget enough time for the point size. Sometimes, it's because your opponent isn't as 'tourney-savvy' and doesn't care if they finish.

But, I think if you want to have good sportsmanship, you need to recognize that some armies are penalized by not playing 5 to 7 turns, and that you should do what you can to get at least 5 turns in during a tourney. That's not being mean or nasty, that's just trying to be fair to your opponent.

I don't consider an opponent's slow play to be just my problem, it's everyone's problem. Like BO, or radioactive gonads.
He can feel free to tell me to eat my dice for telling him to hurry up, I won't be too put out. I will consider him a gobshite however, and won't be likely to socialise with him outside the tournament if at all possible.

Da Boss wrote:I don't consider an opponent's slow play to be just my problem, it's everyone's problem. Like BO, or radioactive gonads.
He can feel free to tell me to eat my dice for telling him to hurry up, I won't be too put out. I will consider him a gobshite however, and won't be likely to socialise with him outside the tournament if at all possible.

Would he care?

NeedleOfInquiry wrote:

The slow player that brings the relaxed "non tourney" attitude

Noun 1. Tourney - "a sporting competition in which contestants play a series of games to decide the winner"

There are no requirements to run fast turns that I am aware of, nor scoring points for finishing a game within so many rounds.

If a game goes to at least one complete turn and then ends then it’s done.

I have no doubt there are despicable folks who will look to see it they are ahead and try to slow things down and thus not allow another turn if they are ahead on whatever turn they are on at the moment. But they are few compared to those who will play at their normal rate of speed.

Telling horde players or any one else they 'Must" learn to play faster is rather foolish. It may be a tourney but it is also a game that folks play for enjoyment. Tourneys do not require one to "Move Faster" as a condition and if they did where is the fair standard of measurment to judge a player against if they were to try such a thing?

If one's game plan depends on one getting at least four turns of play to win I suggest that the one start looking for tourneys that allow a certain number of turns each game in spite of the time it takes, very unlikely now days, or adjust one's strategy. The "I will hold everything in reserves until turn 3" plan may be a problem if one only gets to the end of turn two.


A tourney that tries to run too many rounds and not allocate enough time for normal players to play up to 5 or 6 turns with Horde armies at their normal playing rate may as well add a "SIW" sticker to the front of their signup page.

So you don't think that both players have a responsibilty to play fast enough to try to get a full game completed in the allotted time?

Let me make an anlogy. Your playing tennis or raquetteball or some other two player sport. You only have a certain bit of time to play because you both need to do some errands or something later. One of the players takes 2 or 3 times as long as you do to get their serves in or to take their turn, or to towell off their sweat, adjust their goggles or whatever. Because of this you can't complete your game. Isn't the guy who took longer to serve, similar to the guy who takes 45 minutes to deploy his army?

Same concept right? If you are going to play a 2 player game you have entered into an informal social contract to play a game. Therefore you should, IMO, do your utmost to try and complete a full game in the time constraints given you.

GG

Frazzled wrote:

Da Boss wrote:I don't consider an opponent's slow play to be just my problem, it's everyone's problem. Like BO, or radioactive gonads.
He can feel free to tell me to eat my dice for telling him to hurry up, I won't be too put out. I will consider him a gobshite however, and won't be likely to socialise with him outside the tournament if at all possible.

Would he care?

Probably not. I mean, I don't care enough to think about it past that.

generalgrog wrote:Same concept right? If you are going to play a 2 player game you have entered into an informal social contract to play a game. Therefore you should, IMO, do your utmost to try and complete a full game in the time constraints given you.

Agreed. The intent is to play a game, not a partial game. I've never seen a tourney advertise a 4-turn limit, or "come play the first half of three games." I'd be like calling the Superbowl with 10 minutes left in the game, because Janet Jackson took too long to expose herself at half-time.

There isn't a time limit on tennis IIRC, or golf, or poker.

There is no stated time limit on turns in 40K only absolutes on the MAXIMUM amount of turns in a game.

Again I'm playing Devil's advocate, and have had more than one game where my IG turn went faster then their marine turn to my chagrin. However, the thought of some kid thinking they can tell me how to play is at best a humorous concept.

NeedleOfInquiry wrote:

In both the games you mentioned who ever is ahead when the time runs out wins. :}

If new rule changes slow down the game and the tourney orgaizers decrease the time allowed per match whose faoult is that if the games do not get completed?

Sorry for the edits , messed up with the edit and post :}

Faster doesn't equal better, just faster. You as a musician should also know that.

Frazzled wrote:However, the thought of some kid thinking they can tell me how to play is at best a humorous concept.

Next thing you know, that kid'll be on your lawn! Dern kids!

I figure that I'm enough of an old fart that I can get away telling those dern kids how to play the game right. Back in my day, if you didn't finish, your opponent could smack you across the face with the second edition Carnifex.....

You have nothing to worry about, everyone knows not to mess with the crazy old attic dweller of Dakka!

Frazzled wrote:There isn't a time limit on tennis IIRC, or golf, or poker.

There is no stated time limit on turns in 40K only absolutes on the MAXIMUM amount of turns in a game.

Again I'm playing Devil's advocate, and have had more than one game where my IG turn went faster then their marine turn to my chagrin. However, the thought of some kid thinking they can tell me how to play is at best a humorous concept.

I have a lot more patience with slow horde players. Slow marine armies bug me, cos they are generally low model count and have few wacky rules, and tend to shoot a lot anyway, which doesn't take as long as moving.

I would think the intent of a 40K tourney would be:

1. Both players in a match haveing a good time.

and

2. Who is the best tactical genius at 40k.

Nowhere would I judge point or award prizes for

1. Who can move figures on a board the quickest.

or

2. Who can deploy the smallest figure count army.

or

3. Who can badger their opponent into "moving faster" at the cost of allowing them to plan their moves or have a pleasant gaming experience.

Not slamming those advocating faster opponents, just pointing out theres no practical way to do it, we need to go to more time per round , not less IMO

Tactical genius has a time component.

dietrich wrote:

Frazzled wrote:However, the thought of some kid thinking they can tell me how to play is at best a humorous concept.

Next thing you know, that kid'll be on your lawn! Dern kids!

I figure that I'm enough of an old fart that I can get away telling those dern kids how to play the game right. Back in my day, if you didn't finish, your opponent could smack you across the face with the second edition Carnifex.....

You have nothing to worry about, everyone knows not to mess with the crazy old attic dweller of Dakka!

This is true.



Just don't drop that screamer killer model-its so choice!

Frazzled wrote:... the thought of some kid thinking they can tell me how to play is at best a humorous concept.

That's why we are talking about ways to ease in the suggestions to play faster, you old coot!! Actually... I may be older than you.

I've been thinking of the chess timer concept...It would be fun to have a few games where chess timers where introduced. Basically you have a certain amount of time to complete your turn, based on the average. If you complete a turn early the remainder of your time gets added to the next turn, up to the maximum allowable time. And if you don't complete a turn in the alotted time you miss your chance at shooting or moving next turn, or some other penalty.

Just a thought, may be fun to try it sometime.


GG

Da Boss wrote:Tactical genius has a time component.

Having done over 22 years in combat arms I can tell you as a dead fact tactical genius does not have a time component. Rushing about when people are getting dead is a good way to increment the count.

I don't think there's any kind of universal requirement you can use. I play fast, and hassle my opponent to go faster if they are slow, but I recognize that this costs me sportsmanship points, and makes some people dislike me. On the other hand, I've gotten a full game in every round for the last year and a half of highly active tournament play.

I'd also like to address the myth that its only bad or new players that slow play. Some accomplished tournament scene types are slow players, you can run into em in any round.

generalgrog wrote:

Frazzled wrote:... the thought of some kid thinking they can tell me how to play is at best a humorous concept.

That's why we are talking about ways to ease in the suggestions to play faster, you old coot!! Actually... I may be older than you.

I've been thinking of the chess timer concept...It would be fun to have a few games where chess timers where introduced. Basically you have a certain amount of time to complete your turn, based on the average. If you complete a turn early the remainder of your time gets added to the next turn, up to the maximum allowable time. And if you don't complete a turn in the alotted time you miss your chance at shooting or moving next turn, or some other penalty.

Just a thought, may be fun to try it sometime.


GG

It works very well for multiplayer games fyi. A certain period of time for every phase. Its chaos but fun on occasion.

40kenthusiast wrote:I'd also like to address the myth that its only bad or new players that slow play. Some accomplished tournament scene types are slow players, you can run into em in any round.

Good point, I guess there's a 4th type who is just plain slow, the guy who thinks twice or thrice about every move. I may add that to the OP.

GG

A possibility for a tourney might be if the tourney awarded both players additional points for getting to a complete round 6 or complete destruction of one side before the time runs out?

Do not get me wrong, I support longer times for matchs but do see a problem coming if something is not done about the longer time it takes to play with the rule changes.

NeedleOfInquiry wrote:

Da Boss wrote:Tactical genius has a time component.

Having done over 22 years in combat arms I can tell you as a dead fact tactical genius does not have a time component. Rushing about when people are getting dead is a good way to increment the count.

Sitting paralysed by indecision sounds like an excellent way to do it too.
But rah rah rah for appeal to authority, and extra points for being such a tough guy.

Answers to some of the reasons given for slow play. Keep in mind these won't apply to the people using it to their advantage in the games....

I play slow because I play a horde army.
Move your front row first, and the other just fill in behind. Bring more than 20 Dice when you can have like 60+ Attacks/Shots! Realize you play an unavoidably slow army and do what you can to speed the process up.

I play slow because I like to think my moves/deployments out.
Well Napoleon so do we all, but the best laid plans change once the shooting starts. Basically thinking about things too long can often hurt you more than help. Also it does not take 30+ minutes to deploy a <2500pt army. Apoc games I would say sure.

I play slow because I like to enjoy the game and get to know my opponent.
Can't fault this, because I run my mouth/take cig breaks all the time in local games or tournies with no time limit. Fact is this is not any of those things and there are huge breaks between rounds to chatter.

I play slow because I am new to the game.
Maybe a tournament with such a high points cost, comp level, and time limit is not for you? Or maybe just not yet.

I play slow because I don't want to make mistakes.
Trust me I can understand this. In my 1st game in the prelims (game did not make it past rnd 3) I was rushing because we were running very low on time and I assaulted with one of my three units that planned to and just started rolling. Rushing hurt me bad there, but it might have been avoided had he not taken 40 minutes to deploy and 5 or more minutes to decide where to drop each pod. He won that game against me and will be advancing along with me to the Semi's. Just that I had to massacre my next opponents, and he only finished one of his games to the full 6 and it went over alittle as the bottom of the round was half done when time ran out.

That is just to address a few mentioned. Seriously though just like the situation I found myself in first game, it could have easily been avoided if there was a clock like the one used in Chess. Sure put a 2.5 hour time limit on the tourny, but make sure its not one guy using 1:45 and the other guy less than half that. I am almost positive that ratio or something near it happened on many occasions in this round. Maybe the Semi's will have most of them weeded out. With the reports of slow play winning games for some people I may be wrong though.

K

How about "I play slow because I feel like playing slow, now shut up and prepare for your beatdown." Its as valid as your other statements.

Just pointing out that "convention wisdom" stuff that gets bandied about by folks on something they do not do as part of their job in real life is often not the convention wisdom to those who do do it for a living.

By the way, I have never been "paralysed by indecision" in any of my firefights, even when I got dusted, so yeah that does make me a tough guy, even before you said so.

Frazzled wrote:How about "I play slow because I feel like playing slow, now shut up and prepare for your beatdown." Its as valid as your other statements.

"Beatdown" would imply the fight finishing. Not taking 45 minutes to put your bookbag down while trash talking, and the bell ringing before it can start.

Playing slow because you feel like playing slow in a timed tourny is just on this side of cheating IMO, and that depends on if you do it to win or just to be a kack. Opinions differ.

Its like cheating except, its not.

"Its like cheating except, its not."

LOL, love that