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I'm a fan of timed turns for tournament play, regardless of the game actually being played.

Not only does it prevent deliberate slow playing, it also takes those of us who over think things and kicks us square in the pants. Timed turns have actually made me a better Warmachine player, and I don't see why the same wouldn't work for 40k or fantasy.

blue loki wrote:I'm a fan of timed turns for tournament play, regardless of the game actually being played.

Not only does it prevent deliberate slow playing, it also takes those of us who over think things and kicks us square in the pants. Timed turns have actually made me a better Warmachine player, and I don't see why the same wouldn't work for 40k or fantasy.

So this is allready being done in warmachine tourneys?

Interesting.

GG

generalgrog wrote: I2) The slow player that brings the relaxed "non tourney" attitude.
This type of player is really just in the tourney for fun and not necessarily for hard competition. Therefore he doesn't care to play fast or doesn't realize the importance of it.

So you would rather play against a wound up dill weed who puts unwarranted importance in pushing around a bunch of dollies?

^^^^
SIGH.......

NM....not going to take the bait.


GG

generalgrog wrote:So this is allready being done in warmachine tourneys?

As far as I know, only in the Hardcore format. Timed turns could work well in something like Gladiator or Ard Boyz.

Frazzled wrote:Faster doesn't equal better, just faster. You as a musician should also know that.

True, but who is better the one who can play both fast and slowly, or the one who can only play slowly? The ability to play faster does mean you're better.

P.S. Dream Theater owns us all.

Nurglitch wrote:Bring a time-clock, like in Chess. Talk to your opponent prior to a game and explain how long each player turn can take before the game will be finished early.

Depending on the armies involved and the opponent's social skills (or lack thereof), I might be quite annoyed.

Eventually, this could reach a "OK, I'm playing as fast as I can. BTW, have fun with ZERO soft scores for rushing me..."
____

Frazzled wrote:Faster doesn't equal better, just faster.

Nurglitch wrote:Over-thinking something doesn't mean you're too smart for your own good. It means you're too stupid to reason efficiently. The whole point of lots of game theory, for example, is to circumvent wasting time on Liar's Paradox style recursions in favour of quick, back-the-napkin calculations.

Fast Play Bell of Lost Souls.

Wow, thats an actual horrible article for listing reasons for fast play.

I played against some slow guys once... then I build my 5 LR daemonhunter army complete with grey knights. suffice to say that my turns are averageing 5 mins or so. good thing is that against most hoards, we get done on time, against everyone else, I get done super early. they say 5th ed is rise of the horde, I say it is also rise of the mech, with tank survivability higher, expecially armor 14.

I think if you can't reach turn #5 you should both get a loss.

That way you both have an incentive to hurry up, and if one person is winning they can't stall.

That's not a bad idea, but it only works if you start out with a reasonable amount of time to begin with.

I only got to turn three in the first round of my last tournament. I should probably work on setting my army up faster. (I tied the game, and probably would have won if it continued, so at least I didn't cheat the other guy out of a win or anything.)

Also, it may be difficult to enforce, depending on the players.

Blackmoor:

I think that's a good idea. It encourages players to co-operate to finish the game in a timely fashion. Maybe reduce each player's score proportionately, by the number of turns they potentially didn't play.

I actually lost a tournament because of a swarm army. The guy was new as well so I couldn't really give him a hard time about it.

Personally if someone takes their sweet time in order to force you to lose, they need to be banned from the tournament.

I have actually developed denial army lists that do absolutely nothing but hide all game. In this way it would be completely obvious that someone is taking their time to cheat in a tournament. I can finish my whole game in under 15 minutes, and we had 2-2 1/2 hours??? How in the hell am I supposed to compete then?

Ork swarms are incredibly good at doing this, and a "pro" Ork player can simply take too long for you to react. They time their Waagh to get flags and KP before you can even shoot them. Battlewagonz and Nob bikers can just bee-line towards you while the rest of the army sets up for the Waagh. Extremely unfair, perhaps timers are necessary. I would consider taping my games (which is perfectly fine in tournaments) just to be able to review and entirely shut down any nonsense the judges may present.

Yes I think it's time for "The 40k Channell". Where we get to watch tournament play with popcorn and soda, in the privacy of our own home on our own sofa in our own under.... NM

We could then throw popcorn at the TV whenever we see someone playing slow, like the way the Italians do in Worldcup.

GG

I will have to talk to pay-per-view for that... how does 49.99$ sound?

Telling horde players or any one else they 'Must" learn to play faster is rather foolish. It may be a tourney but it is also a game that folks play for enjoyment.

Agreed. It's a game, not a fething job.

If getting to turn 5 is really that important to you then might I suggest not playing 2500 fething points?

NM....not going to take the bait.

Pff, this whole thread is bait. "Hey, if you can't play fast, GTF OUTTA MY TOURNAMENTS!"

So, I'll just make a few points.

If you want to play a game with time constraints- fire up any of the quality RTS games available these days.

If you are coherent enough to complain about time running short, you should be cognizant enough to adjust your tactics accordingly. If you go in with a set plan of what happens on each turn like schedule, you deserve to have problems when the game doesnt run 6 or 7 turns.

Improvise, adapt, overcome. If you cant do that, why are you playing a turn based tactics game?

And stop blaming the horde players, as thats just more excuse making.

I cant count the number of tourneys I had people twiddling thumbs and rechecking moves (amongst other time wasters) to keep my green tide of orks from making it to assaults.

In the RTT format you could dock your opponent Sportsmanship points for this. But most people pushed, and are more supportive of Ard Boyz and its WAAC vibe. So, its pretty obvious that people will short play the games if it increases thier chance of winning- or even not losing as bad.

And comparing timed rounds for Warmachine to 2500 pt 40k games is kind of....slowed, seems like an apples/oranges sort of comparison.

Sidstyler wrote:

Telling horde players or any one else they 'Must" learn to play faster is rather foolish. It may be a tourney but it is also a game that folks play for enjoyment.

Agreed. It's a game, not a ****** job.

If getting to turn 5 is really that important to you then might I suggest not playing 2500 fething points?

NM....not going to take the bait.

Pff, this whole thread is bait. "Hey, if you can't play fast, GTF OUTTA MY TOURNAMENTS!"

The point of the thread is to talk about an acknowledged problem in the tournament scene. To say "Just don't play in 2500 pt tournaments" Is absurd, as the fact is there are tournies at those levels, and people will want to attend them. Saying "it's not a job, it's a game" is fine when playing relaxing non tourney games. The thing that people are missing is, that tourney play is not relax and shoot the breeze play. There is nothing wrong with encouraging or reminding your opponent that this is a tourney and we need to play faster than normal to get in a complete game.

GG

At 'ardboyz I only had one game where time was a factor. Game 2 we only played through 4 turns, but it was already a massacre in my favor and playing one or two turns more wouldn't have changed anything (except allowing me to pick up an extra bonus point). Game 3 we played through 6 turns.

Game one though - Mech Orks (me) vs an all-infantry SM force (with one DP). Very nice guy to play against - except his army was all in cases at the start of the round and it took him 32 mintues to deploy. It took me 4 minutes to deploy. We only got through 3 turns. My turns were averaging 12 minutes - I played a grand total of 36 minutes and he had the rest. I recognized that when 2 hours was called we only had time for one more turn and planned accordingly - I moved into position to hold more objectives and got the massacre.

I did mention to him as he was packing up his figures into his cases to move to the next table for the next round that the store had trays he could probably use.

I really don't get people at timed tournaments who pack up their figures between rounds.

I'm mostly getting a vibe from the tourny scene that says "Guard and other horde armies stay away please"

NeedleOfInquiry wrote:

Da Boss wrote:Tactical genius has a time component.

Having done over 22 years in combat arms I can tell you as a dead fact tactical genius does not have a time component. Rushing about when people are getting dead is a good way to increment the count.

You’ve misunderstood him. What you just said actually supports his point.

His point was that if you can’t get the right plan put together fast enough to matter, it’s useless. Someone might be a “tactical genius” away from the battlefield with unlimited time on their hands to think and ponder. But it’s not useful in the situation unless the information can be processed and a good plan put into action in a timely manner.

Same deal for tournament wargaming. We have a time limit. If I can’t think and play fast enough to get a complete game in within that time limit (assuming my opponent is using up no more than half the time), I am not a good tournament player. If I'm doing it deliberately, I'm a bad sport. This is the only checkbox on the Adepticon Sportsmanship list worth a multiple-point deduction. Slow play is simply not appropriate in tournaments.

Most well-organized tournaments nowadays communicate to the players that they are expected to play a full game. To make every effort to get in the entire game-limited number of turns. If your local tournament venue doesn’t, it’s worth speaking to the organizers so they can communicate the point neutrally to all participants.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Faster doesn't equal better, just faster. You as a musician should also know that.

True, but who is better the one who can play both fast and slowly, or the one who can only play slowly? The ability to play faster does mean you're better.

P.S. Dream Theater owns us all.

Only if you sacrifice none of your technique and accuracy in order to play faster (as a musician). If you sacrifice either, you're not better merely because you have faster fingers.

Andres Segovia is an example of playing both fast and slow, without losing anything in the faster speeds. Also, he, unlike so many of the current rock guitarists, does more than merely playing arpeggios, scales, or taps in order to seemingly increase speed of playing, or merely fretting a chord with the left hand and picking away quickly with the right (without changing chords). If you watch Segovia, he is often changing his chord fretting with almost every note he picks with his right hand. Unfortunately, if you don't appreciate classical guitar, you probably wouldn't like Segovia.

Anyway, to topic, I think the best way to address it is to not merely put the issue on the other player, even if he/she is solely at fault.

If, after a turn or two, I feel that my opponent is foot-dragging, I would say something like, "Oh, wow! We only have an hour to play and we just finished turn two. We really need to hurry up." During my turns, I would make an effort to demonstrate how I'm trying to hurry up by making my moves and decisions decisively without undue contemplation. I would continue to mention the movement of the clock, and try to demonstrate that I am sincerely concerned that we will not finish the game; I'd try to appear anxious rather than annoyed. Unfortunately, I think that merely saying, "Hey, hurry up" would result in sportsmanship dings.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, another thought. Anyone think it might be interesting to develop a chess-clock type device that you could set to, say, one hour limit per side? I wouldn't say that someone that uses all their time before the end of the game loses, like in speed chess, but there could be some other penalties, like scenario points or something?

To address the point about thinking faster. The human brain is an amazing thing. If you teach it to think faster it will adapt. I know this for a fact as in some of my jobs I have had to react fast to solve problem's which if I didn't could literaly cost my company millions. I had to practive thinking fast on small problems to get my brain adjusted to thinking quick. I'm sure the military trains their men to do the same thing.

Sure you may miss a few moves, at first, while you are getting your brain adjusted to the quickness factor, but you can practice this skill in nontourney settings, even using a chess timer to check yourself.

GG


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Saldiven wrote:Andres Segovia is an example of playing both fast and slow, without losing anything in the faster speeds. Also, he, unlike so many of the current rock guitarists, does more than merely playing arpeggios, scales, or taps in order to seemingly increase speed of playing, or merely fretting a chord with the left hand and picking away quickly with the right (without changing chords). If you watch Segovia, he is often changing his chord fretting with almost every note he picks with his right hand. Unfortunately, if you don't appreciate classical guitar, you probably wouldn't like Segovia.

As a guitarist I love classical guitar. Not necesarily listening to it in the car or anything, but I love watching it live as I'm amazed at the skill involved, much like bluegrass guitar.

GG

Saldiven wrote:Anyway, to topic, I think the best way to address it is to not merely put the issue on the other player, even if he/she is solely at fault.

If, after a turn or two, I feel that my opponent is foot-dragging, I would say something like, "Oh, wow! We only have an hour to play and we just finished turn two. We really need to hurry up." During my turns, I would make an effort to demonstrate how I'm trying to hurry up by making my moves and decisions decisively without undue contemplation. I would continue to mention the movement of the clock, and try to demonstrate that I am sincerely concerned that we will not finish the game; I'd try to appear anxious rather than annoyed. Unfortunately, I think that merely saying, "Hey, hurry up" would result in sportsmanship dings.

Yep. This is usually the best practice. Sometimes an inexperienced or not-usually-a-tournament-player player will solicit suggestions for how to speed up play, too. When appropriate I occasionally help out more directly, if my opponent is willing. Maybe helping assemble the appropriate number of dice for a big roll, or using my fingers or dice to count the results while they roll several batches. Or even helping move large units; as occasionally horde army players could use a hand. You have to be very careful to make sure you’re obeying their instructions/best interest in moving the models, though.

Best results for me have come from being polite and engaged with the TO and judges in a tournament. I ask how they will handle issues like stalling, so I will know when to find them. Almost invariably, TO's have been quite firm about players who deliberately slow play. I'm sure they have been victims of it before, but they care mostly because they want their events to run smoothly and on time.

The same approach with my opponents is also a big help. I'm 45 years old and a father, so I've gotten pretty good at spotting heel draggers and sneaky people (you kids know who you are!). If I offer a handshake and my name, give my opponent my list and ask for his, and propose terrain effects and ground rules, right away I'm letting him understand I intend to move the game along. If you wait till late turn two or three to make a complaint, it's too late to save the game for yourself.

In the end, 2500 point tournies will not result in 6 turns of play among all the matches one might get unless a lot of time is allocated or a time is set inbetween matches for something else that the longer matches can use to finish their match or we just end the game at a set time which is what most tournies do now.

This means do not plan for getting any turns past 3 in most matches and be happy when you do get to all the turns.

There are slow players and no law against it. Horde armies take longers, and game rule changes can increase game time needed.

Getting pissed at a slow horde player, or worse a new player who may never come back after what he feels is harrassment is self defeating to the game in the long run.

Face it, some tournies are heading into a storm over this.

How they weather it will make for interesting reading in the future.

Lets hope not too much cargo (newer players) is lost in the voyage.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Saldiven wrote:Andres Segovia is an example of playing both fast and slow, without losing anything in the faster speeds. Also, he, unlike so many of the current rock guitarists, does more than merely playing arpeggios, scales, or taps in order to seemingly increase speed of playing, or merely fretting a chord with the left hand and picking away quickly with the right (without changing chords). If you watch Segovia, he is often changing his chord fretting with almost every note he picks with his right hand. Unfortunately, if you don't appreciate classical guitar, you probably wouldn't like Segovia.

As a guitarist I love classical guitar. Not necesarily listening to it in the car or anything, but I love watching it live as I'm amazed at the skill involved, much like bluegrass guitar.

GG

"I had to practive thinking fast on small problems to get my brain adjusted to thinking quick. I'm sure the military trains their men to do the same thing."

We sure do, it is mixed with reaction drills under close combat situtions and it's generally not fun. Most of the time its dangerous and every once in a while deadly.

We do not do it for a game.

No offense to anyone, but this is a game we are talking about.

It may be a tourney, but it is also a gaming tourney and those who think fun should be sacrificied over reaction , or reaction speed are too close to the trees.

The solution for fun and full competitivness is either less points or more time for matches, it really is that simple.

Would you really like to win a tourney if the method in which you rushed your opponents caused them to quit the hobby?

NeedleOfInquiry wrote:

It may be a tourney, but it is also a gaming tourney and those who think fun should be sacrificied over reaction , or reaction speed are too close to the trees.

I ond't know what that means, but its sounds great!

Filthy stinking trees...