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This happened to a friend of mine during a tourney. He fought the "intentional slow gamer." Now this guy is well-known to pull these tricks so he'll win (he plays a DakkaFex nid army so he'll win while still being a slow), and managed to pull a draw while my friend could have won if this guy had played faster.

This is also the guy responsible for getting a WFB tourney cancelled at my FLGS because everyone else was getting tired of his need to win.

I haven't seen my friend since that tourney, I'm assuming this guy might be responsible for my friend quitting 40k.

Nurglitch wrote:Filthy stinking trees...

LOL

Cover save?

Nofasse 'Eadhunta wrote:This happened to a friend of mine during a tourney. He fought the "intentional slow gamer." Now this guy is well-known to pull these tricks so he'll win (he plays a DakkaFex nid army so he'll win while still being a slow), and managed to pull a draw while my friend could have won if this guy had played faster.

This is also the guy responsible for getting a WFB tourney cancelled at my FLGS because everyone else was getting tired of his need to win.

I haven't seen my friend since that tourney, I'm assuming this guy might be responsible for my friend quitting 40k.

Thus the other side of the coin is cast.........

I.E. one side of the coin = speeding up play may cause newbies to quit

The other side = slow playing may cause players to quit.

Not saying I totally agree with either one mind you.


GG

"The other side = slow playing may cause players to quit."

Do you mean slow playing or running out of time for the points allocated?

The second part (after the word "or") is easily fixable.

BrookM wrote:I'm mostly getting a vibe from the tourny scene that says "Guard and other horde armies stay away please"

The point I have been trying to make is that because of horde armies tournaments either need to increase the time for each round, or decrease their points. Tournament organizers seem oblivious to the need to get in a full game and have unrealistic point levels and time.

But since the tournament organizers will not change point limits or time, if you are playing a horde, you better play fast.

People want to play a full game of 40k, and are frustrated when they can’t. I play shooting armies that sit back and shoot for 4 turns and then I move out to claim objectives. Is it fair to me that I lose every game because orks are all over the objectives in turns 3 and 4 and if the game goes short I automatically lose?

In another thread I pointed out that BoLSCon has 2 hour rounds at 2000 points. It is unrealistic to think that you can get in a 2000 point game in 2 hours with a horde army.

If you quit 40K because of one tourney you've other issues with the game besides a slow player frankly.

I am thinking of new players and yes 3 rude opponented in 3 rounds would do it I think for a lot of new players, espically if it is observerd to be the typical response, you do not agree?

I'm thinking it would make me reconsider tournaments.

Wait a rude opponent in each game? Sure it wasn't him?

Not an actual event I am just saying what if..

Sorry to confuse.

Understand now, belay my earlier comment.

This is not as much of an issue as KP imbalance, but when you add the two together it basically means your playing the whole game on a razor and your opponent can lay comfortably in their lazy boy.

I would just forfeit the match, and take the loss quite frankly; win at all costs is just not applicable to WH40k. In smaller games specifically IG can pull tricks that would make you pull out your hair, and orks can nearly always get the assault, and end the game because you just lost the one KP that would have won you the game, AND the other player took more than 75% of the game to play.

I could care less about opinions on this, it is flat out cheating, and if the tourney coordinators don't do anything about it I can either play elsewhere or just quit the game entirely, it is my decision.

Organizers definitely are responsible to allocate proper times for their rounds, to intelligently assess their audience, and to communicate effectively with their attendees.

When I ran a series of tournaments at a store where I knew there would be several new players in attendance, and players for whom 40k was not their primary game, I stayed down at the 1500pt level and allocated 2.5 hrs per round.

With experienced players, 2 hrs is more than enough for 1500pts. And 2.25 or 2.5 hrs works fine for larger games. On Saturday only one of my games had to end on turn 5. In the other two we got six turns with time to spare. I was fortunately not playing any horde armies, though my first round opponent had a lot of infantry and was not very experienced.

as the fact is there are tournies at those levels, and people will want to attend them.

And those people wanting to play them need to come to a few realizations first. You can't play 2 hour games in a 2500 point tournament and make it to turn 7. Even if you can, most people obviously don't feel like playing that god-damned fast. If you want to ensure that you play a full game, then you need to:

1) Play fewer points.
2) Play longer games.

And apparently, no one is willing to do either one, everyone wants to bust out their entire model collection and rush through a game in 3 minutes flat.

If you insist on playing tournaments at this level, with huge games and no time to play them in, then you'll just have to learn to deal with slow play or try to get the TO's to do smaller tournaments. And like it's been said time and again, the game is supposedly the most balanced at the 1500 point level anyway, so if trying to find out who the "best" is so imperative then that's the way to do it. 1500 point games, with plenty of time to finish the whole game.

To address the point about thinking faster. The human brain is an amazing thing. If you teach it to think faster it will adapt. I know this for a fact as in some of my jobs I have had to react fast to solve problem's which if I didn't could literaly cost my company millions. I had to practive thinking fast on small problems to get my brain adjusted to thinking quick. I'm sure the military trains their men to do the same thing.

Sure you may miss a few moves, at first, while you are getting your brain adjusted to the quickness factor, but you can practice this skill in nontourney settings, even using a chess timer to check yourself.

You keep trying to apply this idea to 40k, but you've utterly failed to convince me why 40k is so god-damned serious that it warrants this kind of thinking.

I really don't give a gak if it's a tournament or not, the reason I play this game at all is to try and relax, to get my mind off high pressure bs like that and just chill. 40k is a game, even at the tournament level it is only a game, and the prize payouts at these tournaments are NEVER worth that kind of stress. This is not life and death, there aren't millions of dollars on the line, it's plastic fething toys and dice. I don't need to play fast, and this thread so far has done feth all to convince me otherwise.

Not to mention that comparing this game to competitive chess or even real life military tacticians is just outright laughable. 40k is not meant to be that damn competitive (and it certainly isn't that important), if that's what you're after then you need to be playing chess instead, methinks.

Would you really like to win a tourney if the method in which you rushed your opponents caused them to quit the hobby?

I'm afraid a lot of people here simply wouldn't care. The attitude that winning is all that matters seems more and more prevalent in society now and it's a little disheartening. Doesn't matter how many people get stepped on, so long as you're the one on top.

The other side = slow playing may cause players to quit.

INTENTIONAL slow playing. I hope you didn't miss that part.

@ sidstyler

So your the #2 type of tourney player I assume. I agree with you points about lower point games. However I disagree with your suggestion that playing faster is somehow not funner or somehow makes the game suck. It MAY be for you that this is the case, but it also MAY be just you being hard headed about the whole thing? Also it has nothing to do with being so serious, it has to do with just trying to encourage people to realize that their slow playing has consequences, and the game is not just about themselves but their opponent as well. Your oponent has the right to a complete game, and you are obligated to help them achieve that. If you willingly sign up, for a tourney of 2,000 pts in 2 hrs, you have a responsibility to yourself and your opponent to try to complete a full game. No one forced you to sign up for the tourney right?

GG

generalgrog wrote:@ sidstyler

So your the #2 type of tourney player I assume. I agree with you points about lower point games. However I disagree with your suggestion that playing faster is somehow not funner or somehow makes the game suck. It MAY be for you that this is the case, but it also MAY be just you being hard headed about the whole thing? Also it has nothing to do with being so serious, it has to do with just trying to encourage people to realize that their slow playing has consequences, and the game is not just about themselves but their opponent as well. Your oponent has the right to a complete game, and you are obligated to help them achieve that. If you willingly sign up, for a tourney of 2,000 pts in 2 hrs, you have a responsibility to yourself and your opponent to try to complete a full game. No one forced you to sign up for the tourney right?

GG

The responsibility thing is a good point, I wouldn't really want to be playing inexperienced players at a tournament (no offense), and that is really the only reason I would be okay with someone taking ages. My first games were with a friend who was getting back into the game, I was just trying to enjoy myself. Long story short the game ended up taking somewhere around 5 hours total, not counting pointless arguments over rules we didn't even fully understand. Taking longer made our game miserable, and skipping a few things here and there for a friendly game is just fine. In a tournament I would have gotten angry about the confusion, regardless of who's fault it was.

In all honesty though playing in a 10-person tourney with 2 IG armies and 3 Ork armies is really no fun if both of these types of armies are played by total dips. They can basically eliminate everything that isn't 5th ed. and that would be most of the game. When you add all this stuff up, lit just makes no sense how these problems are not addressed sooner. I am not sure how the Ard' boyz tourney was set up ( I did not play, 2500 points are you freaking kidding me???) but I have heard a lot of people complaining about the Ard' boyz tournies in general, apparently they got a few things right this year though.

It was 2 and 1/2 hours each round. At the site I was many armies did not finish but did get to round 3 at least.

That "was" 2500 points too, LOL.

Almost all of the games that did not make it to completion involved Horde armies and/ or players inexperienced with either their army under 5th edition rule changes or more commonly their opponents armies.

A large tourney with players who do not know each other is going to lead to longer rounds in my opinion as well.

Why is it that the people saying slow play in tournies is OK, always seem to have the mindset that the other person should just deal with it? Tournaments are setup within a set of rules, time limits, and regulations that are made to level the field for all armies. In a tournament situation where there are set rules you just should not be able to pull the "It's just a game and I will play how I want" card.

Simple fact is the only way to fix it to where it is FAIR FOR BOTH PLAYERS is to use something like the clock and allot 1:15 per player, and if you run over your time into the other players you sacrifice pts for it. Simple as that.

Also I doubt the "New Player" thing came into play too much here. With the points limit so high, barring people using other peoples armies I doubt they had the models for the points. Or I should say the shouldn't have, but then again there were paper drop pods and cardboard tanks floating about when WYSIWYG was stated MANY times, so who knows.

Ard Boyz this year seems to be very well run from the GW side of things. And it's the 3rd year so things are finally starting to get smoother now that they have an idea of what they are doing.

It all depends on what your standards are, seen lots of people abusing this with their shooty armies (sometimes hordes, sometimes just shooty marines etc.) If they slow roll you, they will shoot you to bits and you wont be able to use their weakness against them. Even if you make it into CC you will have a hard time making up the kill count before the time is up. Add to that the fact that these people always play ultra slow thus making it impossible to tell if they are cheating, or just slow.

To everyone who sais: Adapt and overcome, you dont know what your talking about. You can beat the clock and if the guy doesnt listen to you asking him to play faster (and the trournament doesnt have a rule fore it) You are dead by default, no excuses or anything, just the way it will play out.

Honestly the hostility from some of the people advocating its okay to play slow in this thread is kinda of amazing...

anyways...

Playing slow in a tournament is cheating. Should you be forced to play faster than comfortable? Nope. But if it takes you 2 hours to get through deployment and turn 1 honestly You should be kicked out of the tournament. Honestly even at 2.5k points if you cant make it to turn 4 in under 3 hours you are slow. I have seen plenty of horde players (IG/ORKS/NIDS/LOTD) make it to turn 4 in under 3 hours with that many points.

Most good players I know can finish a 2kpoint match in under 3 hours 6 turns played. 2.5k is more like 5 turns played.

The 2-3 turns played in 'ard boyz this year was unacceptable. It favors shooty armies and penalizes hand to hand armies.

I literally saw a 50 model marine army stall first turn decision, stall which side to deploy on, stall deployment and then roll each shot individually after spending 5-10 minutes thinking about which units his squads would shoot at, considering his opponent had only 3 units on board at start which were identical it was ridiculous. He literally stalled so that when the game ended it was the end of his turn 2 and the other player didnt get past their turn 1.


Shooty armies benefit from unfinished games (games that didnt make it to turn 5) because they are effective from turn 1, all hand to hand armies and especially foot slogger ones need to spend a least 1-2 turns just to get into hand to hand, then it takes them 1-2 turns to make up for their shooting casualties.

Honestly I think if a player is stalling they should lose regardless of their score. If they stall for more than one round in a tournament they should be counted as losing all their games for the day, they can still play they just dont win. Afterall if you play slow and take your time and shouldn't be told how to play because its just for fun you don't need to win a tourney your just having fun playing, right?

and for the people who don't like being told how to play.

I dont like being told I have to make a shooty horde army to compete with the 1-3 round max tourney scene, sorry.

The game is designed to last a certain number of turns before random turns set in, army balance is designed that way. taking that out by making the game last less turns is wrong.

I 100% disrespect people playing overly slow when they do not need to with me, I don't care if your OCD or want to tell me the story of how your model earned his blue striped pants, don't walk away in the middle of a turn to go get a bag of chips and a soda and talk to your friend about how your a tool.

Get back to the table so I can continue killing your models.

Deleted by frazzled as being inappropriate.

deleted as responding to above inappropriate post.

Christ, can't we all just wait until after BoLSCon has passed?

I have played enough 40K to know the stats of most models, and as such I know what I'm going to roll before I roll . . . plus learning all the table helps . . .

Also in other games where there are cards with stats on, having a look at the opponents cards while waiting is also useful for speeding up play.

But then again, admittedly I have slowed down play, to spite the other person as they wanted it played quicker, to unsettle their rhythm as it gives me an advantage, or to waste time. But in the tourneys I play we always play that 10 minutes before time up last turn is announced, this means that even if players go over the time limit whatever turn they are on, it is completed to allow both players to have the same amount of turns.

Deleted by Frazzled as hostile.
Internet tough guys who shout 'cheater!' at the drop of a hat set me off.

There are a wide variety of factors that would cause a game not to make five turns.
Your conclusion is not supportable.

blaktoof wrote:Honestly the hostility from some of the people advocating its okay to play slow in this thread is kinda of amazing...

anyways...

Playing slow in a tournament is cheating.

You have got to be kidding us.........

it should be worth noting im only talking about playing slower than you need to for the amount of models you have.

I dont expect a IG player or ork player with 180 models on table to finish their first movement phase in 5 minutes, but I expect them to finish it in under 45minutes.

im talking about purposefully playing slow to reduce game length.

Mmmm, there we are in agreement.

For future reference I'm just going to ask every opponent every game what turn they want to get to, and remind them if we're falling short of that. It still seems ridiculous that someone would try for anything less than a full game. And by not trying specifically for a full one, you are passively trying not to finish.

On the flip side, as GW allows n00b players to field large hordely things, then a GW tournament should build in enough time for such n00bs to play their hordes.