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this is a problem for new players. Typically new players don't know the rules and spend longer thinking about whether or not to do something with a unit. And some new players are interested in hordey armies (orks come in AoBR, IG is the "new codex on the block")

You can't really tell someone that is going as fast as they can but that's still painfully slow that they need to go faster. AFAIK no one has had the balls or gaul or whatever you want to think of it as to say "sorry you don't know the rules enough and are disqualified" to new players that may be slower because of lack of understanding of whats going in in the game, or with their models.

In my experience the only thing that counteracts this is GW marketing. The starter box set is basically foot slogging orks with 3 deffkoptas versus marines with terminators and a dreadnaught. For pretty much its kinda hard to win against the marines that come in the box with the orks that come in the box. That said most new players like to win and tend to pick the marines over the horde army (orks).

In 18 years of playing 40k I have only seen one new player who wanted to play the horde army as their first army. and that kid was 8. His army was awesome and had all kind of scratch built fw-esque fighter bommaz and stuff that was not tourney legal and he wanted to do stuff like steal you units bikes to ride around on after he killed your biker unit. He never played in a tourney and honestly I loved playing that kid occasionally for his crazy as hell made up rules.

I don't think anyone has a problem with the newbs (maybe the noobs). I think the problem is not having a gold standard to know when someone is slow playing or just playing "casually" in a way that benefits their army. Granted I benefitted some from my opponent's slow play at Ard Boyz, but it was still annoying. I wanna play games.

I've been playing since 1993 and I still play abysmally slow. I solved my slow tourney playing by not playing in tourneys anymore

JohnHwangDD wrote:On the flip side, as GW allows n00b players to field large hordely things, then a GW tournament should build in enough time for such n00bs to play their hordes.

Indeed, especially when GW puts in their rulebooks that tournaments are a great place to learn how to play the game and meet other nice people.

Huh? They said that?

That's what they list in the back of their rulebooks.

First, I will start with this. I, usually, am a slow player. I play very many casual games, so there is no real need to rush.

But, in a tourney, I do believe that

A: You should play the game quickly.

Don't rush, but play at a relatively quick speed.

B: You should know your list in and out.

You should have practiced with your list, your need to search up rules or somesuch should be limited. (I'm not saying you can't look up anything, but doing so more than 20 times is pushing it)

C: Newer players, generally, should enter tourneys with caution.

I'm not saying that new players should avoid tourneys, it's just that if you are going to enter a tourney, you should be prepared.

Overall, I don't play in tourneys so I might be wrong. To each his own.

Blackmoor wrote:

BrookM wrote:I'm mostly getting a vibe from the tourny scene that says "Guard and other horde armies stay away please"

The point I have been trying to make is that because of horde armies tournaments either need to increase the time for each round, or decrease their points. Tournament organizers seem oblivious to the need to get in a full game and have unrealistic point levels and time.

But since the tournament organizers will not change point limits or time, if you are playing a horde, you better play fast.

People want to play a full game of 40k, and are frustrated when they can’t. I play shooting armies that sit back and shoot for 4 turns and then I move out to claim objectives. Is it fair to me that I lose every game because orks are all over the objectives in turns 3 and 4 and if the game goes short I automatically lose?

In another thread I pointed out that BoLSCon has 2 hour rounds at 2000 points. It is unrealistic to think that you can get in a 2000 point game in 2 hours with a horde army.

What about the other side of this coin?
What about the shooty armies that spend a hour setting up and thinking about every shot to try to stall so that the hoard cant waaaa and kick there punk ass.
I have had people stall me and im on them like a rash, if I can move 150+ orks faster than your grey knights(gay knights for shane)then you are either a beginner and I would be glad to help you or are trying to stall and get a minor win on me.

Personally, I like the ideas that have been put forth of offering to help deploy, help move, help get dice ready. The guy can always say no, but I think it's a good idea to at least offer, and it also is a not so subtle way of letting your oppoenent realize how important getting a full game is to you.

GG

Ok
I got one here
I will play orks with 3 loota units ,3 units of cannons ,1 units of gun truks and two unit of death copters,2 big meks with shock attack guns and some boys in trukks
If I go first I take 1 hour + to set up and than the rest of the time to do my turn, if its kill points I easilly have 2 + and get a major win if its objective based I hwill hold three and you will have zero my copters will contest the others with you.
so at the worst I get a minor win and try and pick up a bonus point or two.
If you go first I just take the rest of the time to do my first turn.

so this would be considered goood tactics since there is nothing in the rule book about stalling

guard could do this even easier with valkeries and all there fire power.
so my sportsmanship would suck but i win so who cares?????????

there needs to be a common sence approach to this....

I have moved almost 200 bugs faster than a deathwing army once, i was like you got to be kidding me.....

whaty answers do we have for this, minus points if you dont finish your games???
I play hoards fast so anyone can do it, time isnt the answer its people not playing the game.

I don't know how many times I have been thinking to my self, you have three units left what are you going over in your mind for the last five minutes...........who knows.............

thats my thoughts

I had a pretty hard time putting that all together Stormboy97.

Yeah...

I have no problem with people playing slow . . . unless they are purposefully doing so. Sometime you reach a point where you can tell they are just killing time, and you just want to walk round the table and slap them in the face . . . and then it hits me . . . maybe I would be doing the same in their situation.

Krak_kirby wrote: If I offer a handshake and my name, give my opponent my list and ask for his, and propose terrain effects and ground rules, right away I'm letting him understand I intend to move the game along. If you wait till late turn two or three to make a complaint, it's too late to save the game for yourself.

This seems reasonable, non-confrontational and effective.

That being said, if I was playing in a "serious" tourney I would have no problem with a timer. Sure it's "just a game" but no matter what kind of game you're playing there is an unspoken agreement between the players to make it enjoyable for everyone. This is particularly true when playing against strangers. I'm not saying that when the buzzer goes off your turn ends immediately, but I think it's reasonable to use it as a reminder, at least. My enjoyment of the game is no more or less important than my opponent's. If using a timer seems too competitive then maybe a tournament is not for you.

I agree with the folks pointing out that you should know your army in general and list in particular before playing in a tournament.

I play horde-ish IG, and what I've found helpful is to make a plan from the start and stick to it as best as possible. It sounds obvious but from reading this maybe it isn't obvious to everyone. Of course there will be surprises and adjustments will need to be made. However, when I start adjusting too much is when I lose the initiative and start reacting rather than acting. I want to dictate how the battle unfolds, and I find being decisive helps me do that. Besides which, if it turns out my plan was a bad one, taking forever on my turn trying to improvise probably isn't going to change things and it's better to stick with it so I can see where I went wrong rather than flail around prolonging the inevitable. Also it seems like the less 2nd-guessing I do, the better I do.

As for deploying, I think most people probably do this already, but what I tend to do is just put down a sergeant and HW squad then fill in the cannon fodder while my opponent decides where to deploy their next unit, or even as I move them in the 1st turn or during my opponent's 1st movement phase.. If they want to know exactly where a certain unit is, they can just point them out and ask and I can go ahead and fill that one in. When playing a 100 model infantry list I find it helpful.

Also someone mentioned mortars, I've made a double blast template out of clear plastic that is useful for quickly determining wounds from their scatter. In fact if you draw a line through it lengthwise it's easier to line up with the arrow.

I play hoards fast so anyone can do it

First of all, it's "hordes".

Second, that statement is so full of bs it really isn't worth responding to. Needless to say, "If I can do it you can do it" is not a very good argument.

Sidstyler wrote:

I play hoards fast so anyone can do it

First of all, it's "hordes".

Second, that statement is so full of bs it really isn't worth responding to. Needless to say, "If I can do it you can do it" is not a very good argument.

No, it's a perfectly good argument, for a small child . . .

Secondly, the double blast template is a genius idea, *disappears off to the garage to forge a new blast template* . . . mwa ha ha! My creation is complete!!! =p

Yell: "SpeedHammer SpeedHammer!"

I actually used to do this with my friend.. when hed dotter about thinking...

karnaeya wrote:Yell: "SpeedHammer SpeedHammer!"

I actually used to do this with my friend.. when hed dotter about thinking...

So you got beat up a lot playing 40k?

I have no solution to feet draggers.

Other than looking them in the eye and saying..

"My 8 year old brother has an Army very similar to yours. We practiced before the tourney so I could get some skillz...how old is your little brother?"

/jk

The only thing you can do do if the opponent is playing slow, is use their turn to plan your moves, and then play your turn as quick as possible, just to try and average out the time back to something reasonable.

akira5665 wrote:I have no solution to feet draggers.

Other than looking them in the eye and saying..

"My 8 year old brother has an Army very similar to yours. We practiced before the tourney so I could get some skillz...how old is your little brother?"

/jk

Here's the first thing that popped into my head:

"Today is little Timmy's bitrthday. He would have been nine today. I came here to try to take my mind off it. Thanks. WHY TIMMY WHY!!!!"

I had this problem when I went to the GT in 2006, though thankfully with only one opponent. It was infuriating as I had a relatively hordey Nid army, yet I was getting my turns done a lot faster then his small model Nurgal CSM army. He kept doing that thing where he picked a squad, thought about it, then measured the distance, paused, moved one model from the sqd forward, thought some more, then moved it back to where it was, then measured a new distance and moved the squad in another direction entirely. Now if you can imagine him doing that with every squad/vehicle he had. There should be a 'chess' rule in tourny 40K which states once you've moved a model and let go you can't move it back and re-take the move. Even a referee came and watched for a few moments and prompted the guy that he would need to get a move on as time was marching on.
I was on the verge of killing him as we had to end at his turn five (he went first) so I lost a whole turn! It didn't help that the tables either side of us had finished their games long before us.

I'm not a competative gamer usually and I'm going to this years GT for fun, however I am aware of the time limit and I also want as much 'game' as possible per gound. That's why I always try to conduct my turns as efficiently as possible. In terms of getting around the problem I can only suggest friendly prompting of the time if your opponent seems a friendly sort or praying the night before the event that you are one of the lucky ones who doesn't face a slow gamer.

Wannabe Writer wrote:I had this problem when I went to the GT in 2006, though thankfully with only one opponent. It was infuriating as I had a relatively hordey Nid army, yet I was getting my turns done a lot faster then his small model Nurgal CSM army. He kept doing that thing where he picked a squad, thought about it, then measured the distance, paused, moved one model from the sqd forward, thought some more, then moved it back to where it was, then measured a new distance and moved the squad in another direction entirely. Now if you can imagine him doing that with every squad/vehicle he had. There should be a 'chess' rule in tourny 40K which states once you've moved a model and let go you can't move it back and re-take the move. Even a referee came and watched for a few moments and prompted the guy that he would need to get a move on as time was marching on.

Actually in any tournement game I play in, I generally don't let people take back moves. I always thought every one did the same?

GG

I do, but we follow a 4.5 second post-move brainfart window.

I laugh my butt off at this topic, since people try and stall out against my HtH Nidzilla army all the time. Unfortunately, I am experienced enough with my army and my own turns go so fast that I invariably finnish my games with time to spare. In nine games at the Hard Boyz, spanning three oh the years it has ran, I have never failed to end a game with time remaining. If your opponent is stalling, do your thinking during his turn and your turn should go by lightning fast. The new edition has slowed the game down, but you can also build your army to speed things up. In my army, liberal use of implant attack and S10 makes wound allocation go a lot faster against complex units and my practically non existant shooting phase keeps my first two turns to under 2 minutes each, if that. Other armies can do similar things, mostly through agressive play or focused list building.

If I do feel a guy is stalling intentionally, I will imediately stop letting little things like "takebacks" slide and just put more pressure on the person, in general. If they are stalling, then they believe they are losing, which is something you can take advantage of in the game.

For those of you complaining about slow players, remember we're complaining about you too. Are you the loud mouth at the tourny who is constantly harping on how slow another person is? Always with the "are you done yet?" "Can we get to the shooting phase?" Why aren't you done yet? Hurry up hurry up hurry up. Believe me, we hate you for it. The times this has happened to me has been so the offending player can take the majority of the time to plan and play their turns. And if somebody actually brought a chess timer to a tournament with them, I'd probably ask them if they were lost.

I'm one of those people who plays games for the fun of it, I don't want to be the best in the world, I don't even want to be in the top 100 in the world . . . I have a life too, and play games to have fun and relax . . . so when I go to a tourney and someone is playing without the thought of the fun in the game then it pisses me off. . . when people play too competitively that it's no fun, why play? Cos you want to crush the little guy? Winning isn't everything . . . but maybe this has only been my philosophy due to 10 years of Dark Eldar . . . 7 of which went without a win =p

@ Frazzled- lmao.

"Oh, the Humanityyyy!!"

Sarge wrote:For those of you complaining about slow players, remember we're complaining about you too. Are you the loud mouth at the tourny who is constantly harping on how slow another person is? Always with the "are you done yet?" "Can we get to the shooting phase?" Why aren't you done yet? Hurry up hurry up hurry up. Believe me, we hate you for it. The times this has happened to me has been so the offending player can take the majority of the time to plan and play their turns. And if somebody actually brought a chess timer to a tournament with them, I'd probably ask them if they were lost.

So you are complaining about 2 people or so in this thread. I have had games where I said NOTHING, just finished my turns and I still run out of time because of how slow my opponent is.

NOT FAIR!!!

Why would you generalize everyone into a neat little package so you can deliver some sort of group insult. I am confused why people are getting offended when they hear that Swarm armies are slowing my games down. In a tournament I have no choice but to play you, and I will take all the precautions possible to keep the game at a fair pace. If you need 15 minutes more than me per turn, you should really be asking the tournie masters for suggestions on streamlining your process and possibly even setting up rules for swarms in tournies.

I do not like to play swarms in my fun games, I will usually just turn them down because I find the games immensely boring. A speed freaks Ork list is simply not a swarm, whereas a 2000 point foot slogging army with 180 ork boyz most definitely is. So you take 30 minutes every turn, plus the fact that you already have 5-6 nearly unbreakable scoring units, WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT FFS... Those are the armies I am talking about, not the "hybrid" swarms that balance numbers with tactical efficiency. Add in Ghazghull and I have no pity for the new Ork codex swarms, just unfair.

There are a few things which can be done to ensure that players get a full five turns in a tournament:
a) lower the point limits. Two 2500 point horde armies playing a two hour game. Seriously?!?
b) timed turns. Complicated by the need for chess clocks and determining what get counted against each player.
c) summary execution of slow players. I've hemmed and hawed at tournaments, so I know I'd be dead by now. On the plus side, think of all the fun the organizers and judges would get to have, but how do you decide who's a slow player?

solkan wrote:There are a few things which can be done to ensure that players get a full five turns in a tournament:
a) lower the point limits. Two 2500 point horde armies playing a two hour game. Seriously?!?
b) timed turns. Complicated by the need for chess clocks and determining what get counted against each player.
c) summary execution of slow players. I've hemmed and hawed at tournaments, so I know I'd be dead by now. On the plus side, think of all the fun the organizers and judges would get to have, but how do you decide who's a slow player?

They all look exactly like this... no contest.