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Frank Fugger wrote:You only get 3 units of Broadsides and each unit can only shoot it's Railguns at one target per turn, which means if someone turns up with more than 4 vehicles your Broadsides are a bit scunnered.

Uhm...Team Leader Hardwired Target Lock?

There is so much misinformation in this thread that it's painful to read.

Focusedfire had a really good long thread buried here in the Tactics forums about Tau in 5th ed, and is pretty close to the mark. Some of what everyone else has said is good info as well.

Tau Advantages in 5th
- Tau Vehicles can all have a 4+ save from Disruption pods
- Tau Vehicles get Flechette Launchers, which are very nasty against infantry assaulting tanks, especially Orks!
- Railguns are AP1 and so become even better at punching tanks open
- Pathfinder's can give up their devilfish to another squad, making their buy-in better, and their markerlights are essential to reduce prevalent cover saves.
- Kroot and Stealthsuits can outflank
- Tau Vehicles do not become destroyed when immobilized if moving up to 12" (This effects eldar as well)
- Positional Relay can be useful in objective missions or for a well timed Fusion Blaster strike. (Deepstriking cheap monats with TL Fusion Blasters are the bees knees against mech!)

Tau Disadvantages in 5th
- Firewarriors are expensive and do not have much weapon variety
- True LOS kills Crisis and Stealth Suit JSJ tactics
- Tau have no psychic defense
- Tau have no CC ability (Save Farsight) and cannot really take advantage of 5th edition's brutal Assault Phase.
- Too many elite choices competing for your 3 Elite slots.

I'm sure there are more, but those are a pretty good summation of why the Tau struggle a little bit more than some of the other armies in 5th edition.

scuddman wrote:They suck for several reasons:

1. They have crappy troop choices. Kroot are alright, but firewarriors are junk. While a strength 5 gun is pretty good, the basic firewarrior has no way to deal with a tank or monstrous creature. In objective missions they cannot take objectives by themselves, requiring help from other places in the tau army.
Considering 2 out of 3 scenarios require objectives, this is painful for Tau.

The idea with Fire Warriors is that instead of carrying large & cumbersome heavy weaponry with them, they just carry little markerlight and use it to target Seeker Missiles against tough targets. Whilst this sounds nice on paper, rules-wise it is not that effective:

-You need to take a Shas'ui with Markerlight, and that costs you 20 points extra - 25 if you also take Target lock.
-Even tough Seeker Missile has BS5, you need BS3 Markerlight to shoot it with - combined with cost of Seeker Missile, essentially you will be paying 30 points from one-shot BS2.5 missile. Not great!
-Markerlight is Heavy 1, making it even more cumbersome to use.

Also, Tau infantry has no power weapons or equivalent. Kroot are ok in close combat but also have no such weapons, making them pretty useless against low-save targets: also, they are restricted to LD7 unless you buy horribly overcosted Shaper. Most other armies have, if everything else fails, strong special characters for close combat, but Tau has only one such character and he brings such limitations that most players don't want to use him.

As for vehicles...Devilfish is good, but restricted to S5AP5 armament, restricting its offensive capabilities compared to transports of other armies. Hammerheads are cost-effective, but don't scale well to large points games. Piranhas are somewhat overcosted.

If I was to fix Tau, I'd start by improving Markerlights: Marker Drones should be cheaper, Markerlight for Shas'ui should cost only 5 points, and all Markerlights should be networked. Also, blast mode for Seeker Missile.

I like Tau. I brutally tabled an IG player yesterday with them without losing a unit, and i took 2 of 3 objectives.

Kroot are MONSTERS in CC against low-save units. They'rre excellent against IG and (dare I say it) Orks in CC, as long as they arent too outnumbered. Take come kroot hounds and you've got an exellent assault squad.

10 Pirahnas w/ Target and Fusion guns with Displacement is brutal. Which is even more beneficial as you get 20 Gun Drones as well. Add in a Pathfinder squad and you have basically taken 5 fast attack options.

Drones are not bad at all.


Having messed around with the Pirahna swarm I wish we saw more of it. Being able to take 2 squads of 5 and get 5 fast attack options is disgusting.

whitedragon wrote:

Frank Fugger wrote:You only get 3 units of Broadsides and each unit can only shoot it's Railguns at one target per turn, which means if someone turns up with more than 4 vehicles your Broadsides are a bit scunnered.

Uhm...Team Leader Hardwired Target Lock?

Well yeah, but...

artyboy wrote:Fire warriors aren't that bad because of their price. Back them up with enough broadsides and you don't have to worry about a mech list overrunning you before you get your shots in.

My point was that 9 Broadsides can only do so much damage and so relying on them to stop a fast moving army getting into H2H with your Fire Warriors is a gunline tactic, and one that doesn't really hold up well anymore. You CAN rely on them because they're wicked-awesome, but if your list didn't have Fire Warriors in it you wouldn't have to. Broadsides are made to scare people and kill stuff, not to babysit Fail Warriors who can't handle themselves in a fist fight.

I think the basic thing to remember is that Fire Warriors are never the answer, because no matter how well you back them up they're still the weak link in the chain. You're far better served sucking up the mandatory 6-man squad and spending the extra 10pts for 10 Kroot for your second Troops choice, then just throwing the rest of your points into your other FoC slots because they're the ones that will win you games.

People think that Tau suck because they are wrong. Tau are one of the most useful armies in the game, up there with Guard, and Dark Eldar.

I don't know why. I really like the style of gameplay for the tau. It gives a feeling of teamwork and can be very easy to win.People probly hate them as there are not alot of armies that can execute this(save necrons maybe guard)And they can be very heroic. For example the kroot that infiltrate,They are going to get killed,yet they still fight on for the commanders and let the tau advance to help with the destruction of the enemy.

I find Fish of Fury Tactic is pretty useful if you give your FWs photon grenades. Not much can survive rapid firing pulse rifles.

Oh yeah, fish of fury! very nice tactic. Have 3 devilfish in a triangle while the tau are in a play pen, very nice!

deadratman wrote:Oh yeah, fish of fury! very nice tactic. Have 3 devilfish in a triangle while the tau are in a play pen, very nice!

Most FoF tactics only use 2 Devilfish.

People hate tau because they fail to understand how the army functions. This is a combined arms army it must be assembled correctly and used correctly to be successful. Each unit has its place and if used to support others the army wins. If not well... People don't seem to grasp this. We have a marine sargent who plays in our group. He is amazing. He utilizes tau just like his rifle platoon for real. Concepts like mutual support, bounding overwatch, and focused fire still work in 40k. This must be understood to be successful playing tau and it seems beyond the realm of thought for some, which is why they complain

Yup that is why alot of players underestimate tau. Just because they help each other doesn't mean that they are weinies.Give that Sarge my regards(hey it rhymes!).

@whitedragon: FoF works better if there are 3,just in case one is destroyed.

Canonness Rory wrote:The Tau fire warrior is required, and is 10ppm for a T3 BS3 unit. Far too much. They have a 4+ armor save, but every unit in 5th edition has a 4+ save in cover, if not better.

Their only saving grace is their S5 AP5 weapon. S5 may seem like a lot for an infantry weapon, but since tau crumble in CC that means they shouldn't rapid-fire, or will only get one rapid-fire per game and then die, meaning you get like 6 S5 hits max unless you're suiciding. Not impressive at all.

Tau crisis suits are decent, but expensive and are just MEQs. a Krak missile kills one instantly.

Broadsides are strong but are just 75-80ppm terminators that can't move and fire.

Hammerheads are 1-shot wonders, at BS4 that's 4 hits per game, average 2 pens against AV14.

Devilfish are half as useful as their counterpart, the wave serpent, for roughly the same points.

Markerlights are Heavy 1, they make the Tau a viable army, but can't move and shoot except on vehicles and stealth suits.

Kroot are actually pretty good, 7 points for a bolter on a unit that has a 3+ cover save in forests, can infiltrate and outflank, and is decent in CC is not bad at all.

So in your whole codex you have 3 decent units: Crisis suits, Stealthsuits, and kroot. and you HAVE to buy a squad of fire warriors that is either a free KP to the enemy, or 180 points to make the squad decent.

Well lets see...Crisis take shield drones with a 4+ invulnerable save to take the rocket hit, plus a wise player with JSJ will give you either no LoS or at least themselves a cover save.

Broadsides can move at slow and purposeful and still fire.

Hammerheads can also fire submunitions for a 6S large blast.

Devilfish can pack some good firepower when you take smart missle system with the built in burst cannon.

The trouble is that a lot of tau players just suck. To play tau well you have to be very, very careful with your movement cause you can't make the mistake of getting caught. Played right they are very tough to catch.
You can also get some beastly special weapons for the crisis commander.

One reason as to why i think people dont like them is they are are a guerilla type army. Tau only seem to be good at one thing hit and run tactic. Personally i think its a very effective strategy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One reason as to why i think people dont like them is they are are a guerilla type army. Tau only seem to be good at one thing hit and run tactic. Personally i think its a very effective strategy.

DOUBLE POST!!!!!!!

If we're talking tournaments, Tau have some added disadvantages. It's much easier to get big wins with hand to hand than shooting. I also find it sad that some armies like Eldar and IG can outshoot them.

In objective missions it's almost required to use contesting as your main strategy instead of taking. THat means in objective missions you don't win big.

Lastly, the army requires a combined arms approach. If i'm a smart general, I know ahead of time which units to take out first. If i'm playing mechanized and I knock out the anti-tank first, the rest of the army can't do anything.

Those reasons, in my opinion, are why Tau haven't had a good showing at any tournament for a long time.

Personally I think people say Tau suck, simply because they arnt a very strong tourny army. Same with Necrons, witch hunters so on and so on. Those are all good armies in their own right. None of them actually suck, but to play them against a modern power player style, they cant hold up.
Tau in a normal gaming setting, are pretty good, like the other armies

People saying disruption pods are Tau's saving grace seem to forget that the current metagame is MELTAS MELTAS MELTAS and in melta range disruption pods dont work.

aren't tau one of the best forces out there at the moment?

They bring some of the best mech and anti mech units in the game. They have insane mobility and while they might crumple in assault, you usually won't even be able to get into assault with them. Yes, you might get into one of their fire warrior or kroot squads but with new 5ed consolidation rules, you're going to get shot to pieces as soon as you kill them.

We aren't still playing 4th ed. In which I agree tau were definitely kinda weak but with the changes in 5ed I would say mech tau rival council/mech eldar for being the best army out there.

Tau are cool because they have some of the best guns and most guns for one unit the battlesuits are awesome.

Tau suck because they can dish it out but can't take it. and I play with lil model women with flamers.

screw close combat. I'd much rather roast the guppies in their precious cover.

They were made to be good in 4th ed. 5th really screwed them up because it outdated most of the wargear and tactics that made them good.

Frank Fugger wrote:You only get 3 units of Broadsides and each unit can only shoot it's Railguns at one target per turn, which means if someone turns up with more than 4 vehicles your Broadsides are a bit scunnered.

Fireknife Crisis Suits and Kroot are the answer. A unit of 10 Kroot costs only 10pts more than a unit of 6 Fire Warriors, and 10 Kroot will do a lot more good than 6 or 8 Fire Warriors, without sucking up precious points that you could be spending on nastier general-purpose stuff that's dangerous against more than AV11 and footslogging hordes with poor armour saves.

You can take 9 broadsides if you like. Their shots are twin-linked. And with a target lock on a team leader you can shoot at up to 6 different targets, 3 of the targets get two shots. I usually run 6 broadsides in three teams of two, each with a team leader and hard wired target lock which allow me to shoot a single twin linked shot at 6 targets. Broadsides are one of the best heavy support choices in the game, along with obliterators.

I think that firewarriors are a decent troop selection.

Tau have a great elite choice in crisis suits that can be customized to handle a whole lot of situations.

They were made to be good in 4th ed. 5th really screwed them up because it outdated most of the wargear and tactics that made them good.

I don't see how Tau were "screwed" by 5th edition. All armies had to adjust to true LOS. What wargear and tactics are outdated now? Do you play Tau?

Bottom line is that Tau don't suck. If deployed and played competently they are a top tier army.

I guess some people think they suck because they have not ever given the codex a good look over or had not ever played against a good tau player.

Frank Fugger wrote:You only get 3 units of Broadsides and each unit can only shoot it's Railguns at one target per turn, which means if someone turns up with more than 4 vehicles your Broadsides are a bit scunnered.

For 15 extra points (30 extra points if you don't have any team leaders in each unit), you can potentially spread your railguns over 6 targets with a few target locks. If you chose them as your primary support system, that's 9 different targets per turn. I usually give one to team leaders.

Edit: looks like i was beaten to the post, and i didn't even notice page 2.

spartanghost wrote:Kroot are MONSTERS in CC against low-save units. They'rre excellent against IG and (dare I say it) Orks in CC, as long as they arent too outnumbered. Take come kroot hounds and you've got an exellent assault squad.

Thats 5+ and 6+ low save is 2 or 3 (aka power armor and the like).

The tau are gay cause they run away standpoint is completely rediculous. Could somebody remind everyone what "Combat Tactics" lets you do?

Kilkrazy wrote:Tau probably suffered more from the 5e changes than any other codex but they can still be competitive in the right hands.

forgive my ignorance but i keep hearing this statement and i dont understand it. can some1 explain to me how 5th ed screwed tau? im not that familiar with them.

The Angry Commissar wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Tau probably suffered more from the 5e changes than any other codex but they can still be competitive in the right hands.

forgive my ignorance but i keep hearing this statement and i dont understand it. can some1 explain to me how 5th ed screwed tau? im not that familiar with them.

See my above post.

Basically, having to only take objectives with Troops hurts because Tau troops cannot win a battle of attrition in the same way that other unit's troops can. They are wimply in CC as well, and the CC phase became alot more brutal in 5th. Vehicle survivability improved, and AP 1 bonus helps Railguns be even more awesome. On the other hand, part of the awesome power of Crisis suits was their ability to shoot and then jump behind LOS blocking terrain, making them nigh invincible to shooting, where as now the TLOS rules negate that advantage. The lack of IC protection from shooting killed the Torgoch'el, but instead means that you can basically treat your HQ's like an extra crisis team, however, and then use Elite slots for stealths.

iamthecougar wrote:

spartanghost wrote:Kroot are MONSTERS in CC against low-save units. They'rre excellent against IG and (dare I say it) Orks in CC, as long as they arent too outnumbered. Take come kroot hounds and you've got an exellent assault squad.

Thats 5+ and 6+ low save is 2 or 3 (aka power armor and the like).

The tau are gay cause they run away standpoint is completely rediculous. Could somebody remind everyone what "Combat Tactics" lets you do?

It's kind of depressing that so many people think that tau suck because they're good at NOT GETTING ASSAULTED. 40K is not "hey lets get into CC and hit each other alot", it's "Hey let's use strategy based on our army's strengths and weaknesses to defeat each other." To say Tau suck because they avoid CC and favour shooting is like saying a basketball player sucks at horse riding because he's too big.

Our local meta is geared towards assault and trying to kill 10 plague bearers takes an entire Tau army to kill off only 6-7.

spartanghost wrote:its kind of depressing that so many people think that tau suck because they're good at NOT GETTING ASSAULTED. 40K is not "hey lets get into CC and hit each other alot", it's "Hey let's use strategy based on our army's strengths and weaknesses to defeat each other." To say Tau suck because they avoid CC and favour shooting is like saying a basketball player sucks at horse riding because he's too big.

QFT