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spartanghost wrote:It's kind of depressing that so many people think that tau suck because they're good at NOT GETTING ASSAULTED. 40K is not "hey lets get into CC and hit each other alot", it's "Hey let's use strategy based on our army's strengths and weaknesses to defeat each other." To say Tau suck because they avoid CC and favour shooting is like saying a basketball player sucks at horse riding because he's too big.

Actually, many people thinking Tau suck can be a good thing sometimes. Although it means that there might not be so many new Tau players. It does mean that there will be some surprised people if their army is defeated by the Tau. It's like that Ninja Tau strategy, it will only work once. But, it is a free advantage. I don't know how people can't get it though. Tau are not about CC, therefore they suck at it. How difficult can it be to understand?

It's a weakness that is already well known to the Tau player and they will try to cover that weakness by avoiding CC. Just like the opponent will think that Tau suck at everything. Although occasionally killing big things with Kroot can be a fun surprise for them. The opponent might also think that it was great if they wiped out the Kroot unit. But, more likely it would have just been the Tau players way of making them easier to shoot at by making them slow down.

One change I like in 5th is that you can no longer consolidate into CC

I think the problem that tau have is that they dont do enough damage in the shooting phase to counter how badly they need to stay out of CC. To be fair, I play horde orks generally, and have only played against one Tau player in 5th, but I noticed a similar trend in 4th edition when there were 4 tau players I gamed with, semi-regularly.

My opponents all had the same problem, their fire warriors just fail to put out the damage needed to stop a CC geared army before it crashes into their lines. And, with tau, it is generally all or nothing, they dont win CC against anything. Except grotz when I roll poorly. Even focusing fire, though it may wipe out a unit, will mean nothing if there were 3 units closing in to begin with.

As for Kroot, I have heard alot about how great kroot are, but I just dont see it. A flamer completely runs their day. They are not that good in combat, as they are t3 and have no armor save. At I3, they dont even assault before most assault troops. I am not considering the enemy troops assaulting into cover because, most dedicated assault troops have frag grenades. I have rarely seen kroot do anything but die horribly.

In 5th, you need troops to win 2/3 of your games. When your troops are as fragile as fire warriors or kroot, you will have real problems holding objectives, and keeping your troops alive till the end of the game.

Yeah, it's not that they suck at close combat, it's they suck at close combat in a game that favors close combat. Honestly, shooting won't get it done.

At least in 4th there was less cover and units weren't scoring below half.

Now everything is faster and has cover.

Another hit to fish of fury is how weak fishes are to hth now. Used to be with skimmer moving fast and armor 11 or 12, hth had no chance against a fish.
Not anymore.

Bottom line is Tau can't compete against top lists at any point level, and struggle against many 2nd tier lists. In your normal day to day play they're fine, but they have too many holes. It's not even that they suck in CC, they aren't that great at shooting either. The army is all about quality shots in an edition that's all about quantity of shots. And if they do go quantity of shots, suddenly they're surprisingly short ranged. Where are the units the put out warwalker level of shooting without requiring marker lights and other junk?

scuddman wrote:Yeah, it's not that they suck at close combat, it's they suck at close combat in a game that favors close combat. Honestly, shooting won't get it done.

At least in 4th there was less cover and units weren't scoring below half.

Now everything is faster and has cover.

Another hit to fish of fury is how weak fishes are to hth now. Used to be with skimmer moving fast and armor 11 or 12, hth had no chance against a fish.
Not anymore.

Bottom line is Tau can't compete against top lists at any point level, and struggle against many 2nd tier lists. In your normal day to day play they're fine, but they have too many holes. It's not even that they suck in CC, they aren't that great at shooting either. The army is all about quality shots in an edition that's all about quantity of shots. And if they do go quantity of shots, suddenly they're surprisingly short ranged. Where are the units the put out warwalker level of shooting without requiring marker lights and other junk?

They aren't that great at shooting?????????? Really? How are they not great at shooting? With the proper use of markerlights you should always have BS of 4 hit on 3's and wound on 2's. Rail guns are disgusting and smart missile systems are very usefuly. Squads can fire at different units. I think Tau can take down any mech list out there. Its very important to be able to read how your opponent sets ups.

The number one weakness i have experienced using my tau are drop pods, when used correctly it because very hard to get a clear shot at the troops that were in the drop pod that are hiding behind the drop pod.

Tau have problems in general.
This is caused by being forced to advance and secure objectives. Firewarriors simply cannot do it. In a fish they are ok at taking an objective provided they aren't hit to hard from range and for 180 pts that isnt saying much. Kroot are cool and all in a forest but god help you if there isnt a forest near the objective. T3 and no armor mean you fold like a wet rag to shooting and combat.

Tau are a great spoiler army though. If the mech IG, mech marines, and battlewaggon orcs do end up owning the tournament circut then tau can come out and compete with them.
A good tau army can kill 3-4 chimeras and 2 russes in one turn prety consistently, and they are extremely good at advancing up the flanks to do even more damage to venerable sides of said tanks.
Unfortunately, tau have nothing to deal with drop pod marines and hoard orcs. Lootas/pooding meltas kill their tanks and suits dead and the firewarriors will not reliably kill enough to turn it arround.

ummm. . . because Tau are pew pew and just about everyone else is ROARGONNAEATYOUALIVE!

augustus5 wrote:

Frank Fugger wrote:You only get 3 units of Broadsides and each unit can only shoot it's Railguns at one target per turn, which means if someone turns up with more than 4 vehicles your Broadsides are a bit scunnered.

Fireknife Crisis Suits and Kroot are the answer. A unit of 10 Kroot costs only 10pts more than a unit of 6 Fire Warriors, and 10 Kroot will do a lot more good than 6 or 8 Fire Warriors, without sucking up precious points that you could be spending on nastier general-purpose stuff that's dangerous against more than AV11 and footslogging hordes with poor armour saves.

You can take 9 broadsides if you like. Their shots are twin-linked. And with a target lock on a team leader you can shoot at up to 6 different targets, 3 of the targets get two shots. I usually run 6 broadsides in three teams of two, each with a team leader and hard wired target lock which allow me to shoot a single twin linked shot at 6 targets. Broadsides are one of the best heavy support choices in the game, along with obliterators.

Agreed on all points. See my last post for the disclaimer.

I think that firewarriors are a decent troop selection.

I still reckon the Kroot are far better.

Take your pick:

Some people don't think their background is '40k'.
Some people don't like the models' designs.
Some people like to look forward to the assault phase (which is a third of the game and arguably the way to kill the most models).
Some people like to have an uber unit or two and spam them. Tau don't have that.

My thoughts:
Tau have mediocre LD in a game where most armies have units with stubborn, fearless or ATSKNF. One could stick an ethereal out there to see him get shot, but most would agree that isn't a winning strategy.
Tau generally don't win 'big'. One can win, but the changes in 5th ed with troops scoring, the plethora of cover saves, running, and coming in from the board's sides make it a challenge to win games based on KPs or objectives.
The metagame has changed, but the codex hasn't. I enjoy playing a mech army, but with so many armies going mech, it can get boring to see every opponent spamming troops in transports and heavy support being vehicles.
Relying on markerlights seems like a cheap gimmick to me. Wipe out the the pathfinders and one is well on the way to neutering the firepower of the Tau.
Stealthsuits just aren't as good with true LoS and running as they were in 4th edition.
Wound allocation really is cumbersome if one is so bold as to run a large Farsight list with the different equipment ala Nobz bikers.
Several codexes now seem to have a S10 option in their lists. That used to be a for most intents a Tau exclusive, but I believe Space Marines, Guard, and Eldar are now rocking them as well either due to changes in their codex, or the metagame making Fire Prisms more effective.

In the current game Tau have to rely on board control and applying firepower. That is very difficult to do, probably more difficult to do than some people will find worthwhile.

I say Tau suck at shooting relatively, because other armies that aren't only based on shooting can outshoot Tau. For an army that only does one thing, it doesn't do that one thing majorly better than other armies. I've seen dark lance spam rape Tau even when the Tau went first.

Yet, the army has leadership problems and folds in hth quickly.

Tau have some issues:

True line of sight & the changes in skimmer rules killed 2 of the favored tactics in 4th editon JSJ & Fish of Fury.

Kroot are the only real effective HTH force the Tau have, however with I3, rapid fire weapons, no armor save, the inability to get power weapons on a shaper, & LD7 they still arn't AMAZING. Yes Kroot hounds can help with I5, but that can only do so much. Assaults are more brutal and tend to happen sooner in 5th edition due to the additional rules of outflanking, running, and how moral checks are calculated at the end of an assault.

Firewarriors, battlesuits, and Devilfish are all overcosted IMO.

However, the biggest issue I have with the current Tau is that they tend to only deal with 1 side of the Meta game per build. If you are geared to take down a full mech IG list with Broadsides, fusion suits, & pirahanas you will have hard work taking out an ork mob of 180 boys without flamers, the subnumition shot, & burst cannons.

I love playing my Tau army and I think that with an update they could be very effective. However, from a purely competive standpoint they do have some issues. I've won more games then I've lost with them, but in a tournament enviroment you need to be able to have a force that can win big, which Tau seem to have a hard time with at 1500-2000 points. 'Ard Boys allows Tau to bring so much to the table that they have a shot of scoring a massacre, 2500 points of Tau with a couple turns of shooting can cause problems for most armies unless they are played well.

Besides, nothing is more fun then over 100 kroot charging necrons and forcing turn 2 phase out!

thehod wrote:Our local meta is geared towards assault and trying to kill 10 plague bearers takes an entire Tau army to kill off only 6-7.

...or one squad of firewarriors to blast those PBs off the board before they ever get a chance to assault.

I've seen dark lance spam rape Tau even when the Tau went first.

I'd love to play against someone spamming dark lances as I only use a single vehicle in my tau army (the devilfish I must take with my pathfinders)
All those lances means less multi-shot mid-strength weapons firing into my line.

One other thing about scoring troops is the change in 5th edition to the random game length. I used to go second and just shoot the opponent off the objectives and then zoom in with a vehicle or a suit to claim them. Can't do that any more.

I think the bottom line is that Tau have some issues, but those are mostly due to being out codexed and out editioned. The army can be very competitive in friendly games, but can suffer in hardcore tourneys. A really good general can still use them well, but your average player won't have the patience and/or skill to get the most out of the combined arms approach of the Tau.
I have a feeling that when they get an update the complaint will be that the Tau are broken (just like every army with a fresh codex).

I'm a fairly new player, and I chose Tau as my main army. Why? Because around here, EVERYONE EITHER PLAYS SPACE MARINES, ORKS, OR IG. Tyranids seemed unappealing, and Necron, Chaos and Eldar stuff is hard to come by at the game shops around here unless you order it.

Another reason why people choose to play Tau from the Tau players I met around here: they don't like like the macabre, skull-wearing look of the other armies, and like the Tau for their streamlined, high-tech look.

I think pure shooty armies like Tau and Necrons, should, when they get a rewrite, get some type of upgrade that ignores all the damn cover saves. And Im not talking about flamers lol
Some way to get some shots around the cover saves.

augustus5 wrote:

thehod wrote:Our local meta is geared towards assault and trying to kill 10 plague bearers takes an entire Tau army to kill off only 6-7.

...or one squad of firewarriors to blast those PBs off the board before they ever get a chance to assault.

Dont forget they usually are having a +4 cover save ontop of FNP.

Dal'yth Dude wrote:Some people like to look forward to the assault phase (which is a third of the game and arguably the way to kill the most models).

I look forward to the Assault Phase, although my opponents refer to it as the second Movement Phase.

KingCracker wrote:I think pure shooty armies like Tau and Necrons, should, when they get a rewrite, get some type of upgrade that ignores all the damn cover saves. And Im not talking about flamers lol
Some way to get some shots around the cover saves.

Tau have markerlights that can negate basically any cover save. That's not good enough?

I've always liked the look of Tau but always felt them a sub optimal choice to other armies.

In another thread people stated Tau are too 'anime fan' to really fit into the GRIM/DARK that is 40Hams. But Tau aren't anywhere near as anime fan as Eldar are. But people like Eldar and hate Tau. Oh well. Beats me.

Yea some sort of upgrade or even wargear that almost every unit can take that negates cover saves. We can call them Marker Lights, and you could even put them on drones. The drones would of course then be called Marker Drones.

Seriously this is standard fare here at Dakka. Forum threads like this are everywhere, an army is analyzed by people who have no idea what is even in the codex. They base their experiences on the horrible players they must have faced in the past.

I count about 3 posts in a 3 page thread where someone has useful input and KNOW the material in the Tau codex.

Tau will continue to improve in the metagame as more and more armies go full mech.

asugradinwa wrote:TFirewarriors, battlesuits, and Devilfish are all overcosted IMO.

I think that this right here is the biggest problem that the Tau have. Their stuff isn't bad, it just costs too much.

Firewarriors aren't worth more than 6 points a piece, for example.

You have to take the units really that are incredibly cost efficient, Kroot, cheap crisis suits, Pirahnas( they give free gun drone squads in groups of 5).

I'd list it in this order.

Tau Fire Crisis w/ the assault missile launcher twinlinked, target lock.

Kroot w/ Kroot Hounds

PathFinders

Pirahna are incredibly point efficient in groups of five you get 10 gun drones.

Broadsides are not point efficient at all. Theyre to expensive.

Hammerhead to a degree.

augustus5 wrote:

thehod wrote:Our local meta is geared towards assault and trying to kill 10 plague bearers takes an entire Tau army to kill off only 6-7.

...or one squad of firewarriors to blast those PBs off the board before they ever get a chance to assault.

1 Squad of fire warriors rapid-firing at BS5 into a squad of 10 PBs:
24 shots.
20 hits.
10 wounds. (S5 vs T5)
5 pass the cover save. (4+ Cover, it IS 5th edition after all)
2.5 pass FNP. (4+ FNP)

If not in cover:
10 wounds.
7-8 Pass the 5+ Invuln
3-4 Pass FNP

120 points of fire warriors with 2 markerlights can kill 30 points of plaguebearers, or with 3 markerlights can kill 45-60 points. And then every single one dies in assault.

Canonness Rory wrote:Congrats, you just made yourself look like an idiot.
Well... I helped.

You seem to have forgotten your previous warning. Click on the Rule #1 link in my sig. Go ahead, I'll wait.



This is a personal attack and will not be tolerated here on Dakka, and you have been warned about this before. If you continue to do so, it will result in a temporary suspension.

Thank you.

I have found them to be a weak opponent.

Whenever someone shows up with Tau, I have been allowing them about 300 extra points to make it challenging for me.

Even then, it's too easy. Might have to up the handicap.

I always find people taking these ten man squads of Tau Fire warriors. i prefer minimum squads so as to free up more points for vehicles.

You can have two squads of ten in a warfish or two squads of 6 in two warfish with 120 points left over for more warfish or kroot.

Sure take the minimum required troops in 5th ed. Go ahead. 66% of the time I'll only need to kill 12 T3 4+sv guys to stop you from winning the game. Sure, you'll say "Well, I also take a ten man kroot squad." Ok, now I have to whack 10 basically naked T3 guys. Sure your motor pool collection of suits and fish varients might kill my army (doubtful), but even if you do the best you can hope for is a draw.
Sorry for the vent, but nothing gets my goat like minimum Troop armies. Best change in modern 40K is making Troops the sole objective holders (for the most part).

I think people say Tau suck because most Tau armies don't have enough kroot !

Redwunz wrote:Sure take the minimum required troops in 5th ed. Go ahead. 66% of the time I'll only need to kill 12 T3 4+sv guys to stop you from winning the game. Sure, you'll say "Well, I also take a ten man kroot squad." Ok, now I have to whack 10 basically naked T3 guys. Sure your motor pool collection of suits and fish varients might kill my army (doubtful), but even if you do the best you can hope for is a draw.
Sorry for the vent, but nothing gets my goat like minimum Troop armies. Best change in modern 40K is making Troops the sole objective holders (for the most part).

THIS.

Nothing like getting consistently laughed at for wanting to field large numbers of tactical marines and then winning a game handily by killing the only two scorers on the other side of the field.

I don't think Tau suck per say, as I have seen them compete and beat in tournies, everything from horde ork to Mechvets, I think that the army in 5th has been made much much more difficult to play, and if you make one mistake now you will lose the game. Much like Dark Eldar they are a "glass cannon" they can take out almost anything with their shooting, but their own survivability is very suspect unless you can keep your oppenents army from bring the bulk of its force to bear on you, which is very very hard to do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also to fix Tau fire warriors, take a page from Warhammer fantasy, let them stand and shoot

Redwunz wrote:Sure take the minimum required troops in 5th ed. Go ahead. 66% of the time I'll only need to kill 12 T3 4+sv guys to stop you from winning the game. Sure, you'll say "Well, I also take a ten man kroot squad." Ok, now I have to whack 10 basically naked T3 guys. Sure your motor pool collection of suits and fish varients might kill my army (doubtful), but even if you do the best you can hope for is a draw.
Sorry for the vent, but nothing gets my goat like minimum Troop armies. Best change in modern 40K is making Troops the sole objective holders (for the most part).

That is a major problem with Tau in 5th. Fire Warriors and Kroot are very specialized only capable of going for light/medium infantry. But, with the advent of mech Fire Warriors and Kroot are becoming less and less desirable. That is why most Tau armies don't take a lot of troops as they need the points in Elites and Heavy to deal with the MC, 2+ save units, and Vehicles which have become the norm nowadays. Tau has never been a troop heavy army and is really being punished for it, in objective games at least.