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for those who do not play fantasy the rule is as follows, when you charge a ranged unit, most times they have the ability to unload a free round of shooting at you on the way in, people will think twice about charging with 5 assualt marines knowing they will end up needing 12 or 13 armour saves before they even hit combat

Scariest Tau I ever played had almost 40 fire warriors and a nicely balanced set of support choices. Very mobile, very shooty. Two games in a row my only survivor was my Chaplain. That guy probably needed a shrink after the beatings he witnessed.
This Tau player had an answer for every challange, and had the mobility and durability to not only all but table me, but to hold most of the objectives in both games. I almost started a Tau army after that.
That being said I reaffirm my first post and say that they can be hard to use, but can still compete.

Oh yeah. That's at 1500pts

doubled wrote:I don't think Tau suck per say, as I have seen them compete and beat in tournies, everything from horde ork to Mechvets, I think that the army in 5th has been made much much more difficult to play, and if you make one mistake now you will lose the game. Much like Dark Eldar they are a "glass cannon" they can take out almost anything with their shooting, but their own survivability is very suspect unless you can keep your oppenents army from bring the bulk of its force to bear on you, which is very very hard to do.


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Also to fix Tau fire warriors, take a page from Warhammer fantasy, let them stand and shoot

Not familiar with Fantasy, what are you on about?

Redwunz wrote:Sure take the minimum required troops in 5th ed. Go ahead. 66% of the time I'll only need to kill 12 T3 4+sv guys to stop you from winning the game. Sure, you'll say "Well, I also take a ten man kroot squad." Ok, now I have to whack 10 basically naked T3 guys. Sure your motor pool collection of suits and fish varients might kill my army (doubtful), but even if you do the best you can hope for is a draw.
Sorry for the vent, but nothing gets my goat like minimum Troop armies. Best change in modern 40K is making Troops the sole objective holders (for the most part).

Minimum troops as in Squad Size not Minimum Troop allotment.

3 6 Man Squads in 3 Warfishes is 120 points cheaper and pays for itself time and again.

Add in 2 20 man kroot squads.


Like people said its the Tau Mobility taht reigns.

I think 6 w/ a fitted warfish is 175 x 3 + 200 points of kroot still leaves PLENTY of points left over for other items.

My son is 12 and has set aside his just-begun Ultramarines for a Tau army. He is not an Anime buff at all. He just thinks they are cool and look more futuristic than our grim 'deathretro' WWI style assault armies (which I prefer). He also always wanted to play his Marines as a shooty long-distance army anyway! This is a great thread for me to help him build up a nice little force. My son says "Tau don't suck!!"

Hollismason wrote:

Minimum troops as in Squad Size not Minimum Troop allotment.

Fair enough, Troop issues are just my personal beef with the meta out there right now, and while I understand the need to conserve points I also feel that most people just see Troops as something that they have to take to get to the good stuff. I will admit that the Tau Troops choices aren't the sexiest beasts out there, but generally speaking your Troop choices are where the game is won. How many squads/guys/equipment/ect. It's kinda funny, but the more Mech gets hyped, the more comfortable I feel. When 70 pts of guardsmen can kill any single vehicle in the game, that = win in my book. Take all the broadsides and crisis teams you want, but if your opponent has 200 ork boys you are up a creek if you don't have a healthy contingent of Fire Warriors to help thin the horde.

Anyway rant over. It's a game, swing it in whatever way is fun for you.

Well really the benefit of the Tau Transports is that they can still claim objectives with the troops inside.

So 3 Devilfishes with Min squads and kroot is a good choice.

Sure the transport/obj rule is a nice up for the Tau. Fish are decent transports, not great, but not bad.

Point for point, fire warriors are worse at "thinning the horde" than most of the other options that Tau have...

Your argument about taking more than minimum fire warriors seems to swing from "this is how 40k should be played" which of course is just you trying to assert your own preferences onto other people, and "fire warriors are necessary to kill stuff" which I think most people can tell from statistics and in-game use of fire warriors is not true. Fire warriors are bad at killing things, and bad at surviving.

If we're going to point the opinion finger, your post is just your idea about the topic. This is a online forum. It's all about espousing your opinions. I believe Fire Warriors used properly can be effective for their cost. I'm not saying that they are the be all and end all, I just think they are an under used resource. Hell, I'd kill somebody to get a few squads of 4+ sv guys with a S5 guns in my guard army. I've already acknowledged that there are flaws in the Tau army, and as I posted earlier I think after they get codexed they will be truely scary.

Tau are the reason I got back into 40k.

Tau are a little hard to get the hang of at first. I'll admit that I was struggling to figure out how to play them as I usually played IG and Ultramarines (yes, I love em). But eventually I got the hang of them and as other posters have already said, they play very differently than other armies.

You have to play Tau where everything compliments each other. I've found out the hard way that one unit alone is going to get the snot kicked out of him unless you help em out.

For me, once I started to adapt and use similar tactics like I used w/my IG, I did a lot better.

Firewarriors - Use cover to your advantage. That 30'' shot means I'll be shooting you before you shoot me. Get w/in 15'' and I'll unload 24 S5 hits on you. +4 cover save complimented w/some Crisis Suits and your unit most likely will go bye-bye.

Basically, I've learned no unit can operate by themselves w/o the support of the others. Play like the Tau think and preach and you'll do a lot better.


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Redwunz wrote:If we're going to point the opinion finger, your post is just your idea about the topic. This is a online forum. It's all about espousing your opinions. I believe Fire Warriors used properly can be effective for their cost. I'm not saying that they are the be all and end all, I just think they are an under used resource. Hell, I'd kill somebody to get a few squads of 4+ sv guys with a S5 guns in my guard army. I've already acknowledged that there are flaws in the Tau army, and as I posted earlier I think after they get codexed they will be truely scary.

Exactly.

Doombot001 wrote:Tau are the reason I got back into 40k.

Tau are a little hard to get the hang of at first. I'll admit that I was struggling to figure out how to play them as I usually played IG and Ultramarines (yes, I love em). But eventually I got the hang of them and as other posters have already said, they play very differently than other armies.

You have to play Tau where everything compliments each other. I've found out the hard way that one unit alone is going to get the snot kicked out of him unless you help em out.

For me, once I started to adapt and use similar tactics like I used w/my IG, I did a lot better.

Firewarriors - Use cover to your advantage. That 30'' shot means I'll be shooting you before you shoot me. Get w/in 15'' and I'll unload 24 S5 hits on you. +4 cover save complimented w/some Crisis Suits and your unit most likely will go bye-bye.

Basically, I've learned no unit can operate by themselves w/o the support of the others. Play like the Tau think and preach and you'll do a lot better.


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Redwunz wrote:If we're going to point the opinion finger, your post is just your idea about the topic. This is a online forum. It's all about espousing your opinions. I believe Fire Warriors used properly can be effective for their cost. I'm not saying that they are the be all and end all, I just think they are an under used resource. Hell, I'd kill somebody to get a few squads of 4+ sv guys with a S5 guns in my guard army. I've already acknowledged that there are flaws in the Tau army, and as I posted earlier I think after they get codexed they will be truely scary.

Exactly.

Remember that Rapid Fire allows you to shoot twice at 12", regardless of the range of the weapon... and that's the biggest problem with fire warriors. If you're in rapid-fire range, then your opponent is in assault range the next turn, and even with marker light support, they just aren't killy enough to wipe out most enemy units on their own. Yes, you can combine fire, and block assaults with flechette discharger fish and piranhas, but that seems like a lot of effort to support one lackluster unit.

I think that the Tau are one of the scarier armies out there... but honestly, it's the people who give the advice that lots-of-firewarriors is a good way to run an army that keep many Tau players from being competitive.

I still say every unit but kroot need to be BS4.

Canonness Rory wrote:I still say every unit but kroot need to be BS4.

I think that would be a good idea for Tau. It wouldn't increase the effectiveness of the already-great units by a whole lot (broadsides and hammerheads) but it would help units that are a bit overcosted.

I'm not sure that BS4 is the best answer, but it sure would make WS2 a lot easier to take

willydstyle wrote:

Doombot001 wrote:Tau are the reason I got back into 40k.

Tau are a little hard to get the hang of at first. I'll admit that I was struggling to figure out how to play them as I usually played IG and Ultramarines (yes, I love em). But eventually I got the hang of them and as other posters have already said, they play very differently than other armies.

You have to play Tau where everything compliments each other. I've found out the hard way that one unit alone is going to get the snot kicked out of him unless you help em out.

For me, once I started to adapt and use similar tactics like I used w/my IG, I did a lot better.

Firewarriors - Use cover to your advantage. That 30'' shot means I'll be shooting you before you shoot me. Get w/in 15'' and I'll unload 24 S5 hits on you. +4 cover save complimented w/some Crisis Suits and your unit most likely will go bye-bye.

Basically, I've learned no unit can operate by themselves w/o the support of the others. Play like the Tau think and preach and you'll do a lot better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Redwunz wrote:If we're going to point the opinion finger, your post is just your idea about the topic. This is a online forum. It's all about espousing your opinions. I believe Fire Warriors used properly can be effective for their cost. I'm not saying that they are the be all and end all, I just think they are an under used resource. Hell, I'd kill somebody to get a few squads of 4+ sv guys with a S5 guns in my guard army. I've already acknowledged that there are flaws in the Tau army, and as I posted earlier I think after they get codexed they will be truely scary.

Exactly.

Remember that Rapid Fire allows you to shoot twice at 12", regardless of the range of the weapon... and that's the biggest problem with fire warriors. If you're in rapid-fire range, then your opponent is in assault range the next turn, and even with marker light support, they just aren't killy enough to wipe out most enemy units on their own. Yes, you can combine fire, and block assaults with flechette discharger fish and piranhas, but that seems like a lot of effort to support one lackluster unit.

I think that the Tau are one of the scarier armies out there... but honestly, it's the people who give the advice that lots-of-firewarriors is a good way to run an army that keep many Tau players from being competitive.

I agree that taking the load of firewarriors is wrong. Take enough where you're comfortable and don't forget to take something to compliment them. Basing your Tau army solely on FW's is a big mistake. I've learned that whatever it takes, don't get into CC w/them. If it looks like they're going to get assaulted, move away fast. Get some pinning shots so the baddies can't pursue. It's good to hassle the baddie w/your Crisis Suits and Broadsides.

Too bad I've seen many of my Firewarriors get chewed up by Daemon Princes or get run over by an Eldar War Walker...

Doombot001 wrote:
Too bad I've seen many of my Firewarriors get chewed up by Daemon Princes or get run over by an Eldar War Walker...

That is a pain that all of us who play non-assault armies know all too well.

Here is a great idea to make firewarriors not suck. Never disembark them...

Canonness Rory wrote:

augustus5 wrote:

thehod wrote:Our local meta is geared towards assault and trying to kill 10 plague bearers takes an entire Tau army to kill off only 6-7.

...or one squad of firewarriors to blast those PBs off the board before they ever get a chance to assault.

1 Squad of fire warriors rapid-firing at BS5 into a squad of 10 PBs:
24 shots.
20 hits.
10 wounds. (S5 vs T5)
5 pass the cover save. (4+ Cover, it IS 5th edition after all)
2.5 pass FNP. (4+ FNP)

If not in cover:
10 wounds.
7-8 Pass the 5+ Invuln
3-4 Pass FNP

120 points of fire warriors with 2 markerlights can kill 30 points of plaguebearers, or with 3 markerlights can kill 45-60 points. And then every single one dies in assault.

giving firewarriors the benefit of markerlights is a waste, better off with battlesuits or hammerhead/broadside for reduced cover and hopefully negation of FNP.

Linkdead wrote:Here is a great idea to make firewarriors not suck. Never disembark them...

If devilfish had firepoints (and plenty of them) this statement would be true. As it is, while they are onboard a vehicle, they have no way to do damage. Any time you spend points in an army list, it should be on a unit that can damage the enemy (in my opinion at least). Therefore, fire warriors that never have a potential to hurt the baddies still suck.

Here is one for you then. Firewarriors are a 60 point devilfish upgrade that makes it count as scoring.

Pretty Much exactly that.

1 Pathfinder Squad w/ Devilfish

6 Fire Warriors w/ Devilfish

6 Fire Warriors w/ Devilfish

6 Fire Warriors ( get inside Pathfinder Devilfish)

10 Kroot w/ 10 Kroot Hounds


Gives you 4 Scoring Units. Is inexpensive and has plenty of Fire Power. I go SMS to ignore LOS.

Or go with 2 and more Kroot.

Linkdead wrote:Here is one for you then. Firewarriors are a 60 point devilfish upgrade that makes it count as scoring.

Even in an objective mission, having lots of scoring units that can't destroy your opponent's scoring/contesting units is not a reliable way to win. Firewarriors suck.

willydstyle wrote:Firewarriors suck.

Congrats on finally catching up, that's why you only take 6 of them and never let them out of the fish they came in or better yet borrow from pathfinders. Your only compelled to take 6 firewarriors in a list.

In a mech heavy meta game their is no reason tau shouldn't be top tier.

Linkdead wrote:

willydstyle wrote:Firewarriors suck.

Congrats on finally catching up, that's why you only take 6 of them and never let them out of the fish they came in or better yet borrow from pathfinders. Your only compelled to take 6 firewarriors in a list.

In a mech heavy meta game their is no reason tau shouldn't be top tier.

Aren't you the one who is catching up since you've been trying to convince me that 5 of them is worth 60 points for a few posts now You have to take a squad of 6. If you have to spend those points anyways, then you're right, turning a devilfish scoring is useful, but it's not 60 points useful, and it's not enough to make them not suck.

People don't like tau for the Same reason people don't like Chaos, Imperial Gaurd, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Orks, Tyranids, and Necrons. Everyone has differing outlooks and opinions on the game. But people don't like Space Marines because they hog the limelight.

Kroot really are preferable and you can keep them off the board with positional relay.


I dont have my codex handy there is some way to do it involving positional relay, and just not picking the unit so they come in later.

I love TAU first army that got me into the Gameswork-shop universe, why becasue tehy look awesome. plus TAU are a great army as it is a very tactical army to use with great units liek battlesuits using their extra move(Tau Dancing) you cna set youself up for more killing or even tempt your oppenent to charge you then setting yourself up for a BBQ. They area great army and should not be slandered and if used right can own any army out htere even the new broken Guard army

I say this as an owner of about 2k in Tau, repeating a sentiment someone had earlier on in the thread: Tau simply aren't shooty enough for their frailty. And to mech up, you pretty much have to seriously kit out your devilfish, which makes your AV12 transport push rediculous point levels. And, to quote another previous comment, the current melta metagame still makes your 125 point transports pop like 40 point rhinos. I will agree that you don't get a whole lot more anti-mech than 3 broadsides with Advanced Stabilization Systems, but between prevalent cover saves and even more prevalent outflankers/deep strikers, those broadsides are pretty much sitting ducks.

When a sit and shoot army is easily outshot by a rediculously mobile version (eldar) or rediculously inexpensive version (IG), I'm just buying their capability as an army.

shadowseer92 wrote:I love TAU first army that got me into the Gameswork-shop universe, why becasue tehy look awesome. plus TAU are a great army as it is a very tactical army to use with great units liek battlesuits using their extra move(Tau Dancing) you cna set youself up for more killing or even tempt your oppenent to charge you then setting yourself up for a BBQ. They area great army and should not be slandered and if used right can own any army out htere even the new broken Guard army

1. Tau is not an acronym, nor does it need to be shouted. you capitalize the first letter, not the entire word.
2. Spellcheck is your friend, but more importantly, it is the friend of everyone who has the grossly unenviable privilege of reading your posts.
3. JSJ is a well-known tactics that comes from 4th edition terrain rules, it is also good in 5th edition, but it is by NO means hard to beat, battlesuits are MEQs that cost twice as much as terminators for about 175% of the firepower.
4. For something to be slander it has to be untrue.
5. Every army ever, if used right, can scratch a victory against newer armies played by morons.
6. How is the new Guard broken by any stretch of the imagination? Yes, they have some great units, but they do not have anything easily abusable like chaos or orks, anybody who says another army is broken is simply trying to make themselves feel better for losing against it.