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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/09/23 13:58:24
Subject: Doom Diver question
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Mutilatin' Mad Dok
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nosferatu1001 wrote:No, you base all models on the bases they are supplied with. To do otherwise is breaking the rules.
I'm gonna hedge on your a strict RAW guy? As a tournment player, I get your point of view, however there has to be some degree of bend/ friendly agreement. Its a game, the fact of "breaking the rules" is important to some degree, but if your calling this one of basically using the flying stand as a template, best of luck. I'm glad the guys in my gaming club and local area all agree on this one based on my experiences.
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Tournment Record
2013: Khador (40-9-0)
============
DQ:70+S++++G+M+B+I+Pw40k95-D++A+++/aWD100R+++T(M)DM+
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/09/23 21:11:20
Subject: Doom Diver question
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Actually no: I am a strict "Knowing what the rules actually say" guy, as I can then make appropriate houserules if I think it makes sense to.
In this case you must a) base the model appropriately, i.e. the base it comes with. b) it tells you to place the Goblin onto the table, so you do so, and c) anythign the goblin hits takes a certian number of hits.
This makes perfect sense to me, and is just doing exactly what the tell you to do.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/09/24 01:23:21
Subject: Doom Diver question
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[DCM]
Tzeentch's Fan Girl
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Dude, you are totally overthinking it. But if you REALLY want to do this the hard way, I'll oblige:
At no point does the book tell you to use the model as a template. It does not say to place the goblin model over the point, and any units covered by the model are hit.
When they say that's where the goblin lands, they're speaking fluff-wise.
Oh, and in this case, the base the model comes with is a giant slingshot.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/09/24 03:05:57
Subject: Re:Doom Diver question
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Wraith
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Manfred von Drakken wrote:Oh, and in this case, the base the model comes with is a giant slingshot.
So clearly you must use the giant slingshot as the template and anything underneath it is hit, right? Gork and Mork blessed these guys, Doom Divers are awesome!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/09/24 05:06:05
Subject: Doom Diver question
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Manfred von Drakken wrote:Dude, you are totally overthinking it. But if you REALLY want to do this the hard way, I'll oblige:
At no point does the book tell you to use the model as a template. It does not say to place the goblin model over the point, and any units covered by the model are hit.
Really? I think you will find the rules tell you exactly that (well, not to use the model asa template, as that is a defined term within WHFB)
In the rules for the Doom Diver Catapult, p27, under "Doom Diver Catapult"
Doom Diver Rules wrote:When firing a Doom Diver Catapult treat it as you would a stone thrower (guess range etc). No template is used with the Doom Diver - if the Goblin hits an enemy model....
So they do tell you to use the Goblin, which context dictates is the flying model, and tells you to place it exactly as if firing a stone thrower. It states it does not use a template, but a model is not a Template so there is no contradiction there.
Manfred von Drakken wrote:
When they say that's where the goblin lands, they're speaking fluff-wise.
Actually no, theyre not: it is right there in the rules section, telling you exactly how to use the DD. It specifically tells you to use the Goblin.
Manfred von Drakken wrote:Oh, and in this case, the base the model comes with is a giant slingshot.
That is the base of the Catapult, not of the Goblin, which is what you are told is hitting the unit.
SO using EXACTLY what the rules tell you to do I am correct, and you are using a houserule. Sorry but the entire 2 paragraphs under "Doom Diver Catapult" are rules telling you exactly what you should do - the only bit of fluff is the justification for the D3" correction.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/09/24 05:07:45
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/09/24 14:17:23
Subject: Doom Diver question
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Mutilatin' Mad Dok
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I love when people split posts making it even harder to read. Life goes on. Interpret how you'd like. I hedge to disagree in your thoughts on how the rule works. By your logic, i'm sure there are many many fun interpretations of rules.
Regardless, this was interesting, happy thursday to everyone whose work week ends tomorrow!
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Tournment Record
2013: Khador (40-9-0)
============
DQ:70+S++++G+M+B+I+Pw40k95-D++A+++/aWD100R+++T(M)DM+
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/09/24 14:29:02
Subject: Doom Diver question
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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It's called "replying to points in turn"
My intepretation uses the literal words exactly as directed, your's doesn;t. Guess which is RAW and which isn't.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/09/24 16:21:01
Subject: Doom Diver question
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Been Around the Block
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7th ed has rules for what base should be used with each squad.
Since the DD is not a flyer, chariot, monster, mounted model or large creature but instead just a goblin he would be mounted on a 20 mm base.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/09/24 16:57:11
Subject: Doom Diver question
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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The Goblin is not defined as any unit type and therefore you use the base it comes supplied with.
You are certainloy not constrained to a 20mm base, if you insist on picking an arbitrary base size: if the model is Infantry it can be on 20,25 or 40mm sized bases
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/09/24 17:25:09
Subject: Doom Diver question
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Mutilatin' Mad Dok
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Nos~ your opinion is noted, there are numerous people here believing your opinion is not accurate. As a gamer, I understand where your opinion is coming from, however a 20mm for the goblin would be accurate, not a 25 mm nor a 40mm.
Perhaps you should look at the presentation of the model from other gamers points of view and reside what is the best in game resolutation and the fairest. That's typically how it is encouraged to resolve rules disputes. Regardless of what you decide and how to make your decision, its a game.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/09/24 17:26:20
Tournment Record
2013: Khador (40-9-0)
============
DQ:70+S++++G+M+B+I+Pw40k95-D++A+++/aWD100R+++T(M)DM+
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/09/24 21:28:33
Subject: Doom Diver question
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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spasheridan wrote:7th ed has rules for what base should be used with each squad.
Since the DD is not a flyer, chariot, monster, mounted model or large creature but instead just a goblin he would be mounted on a 20 mm base.
Yeah, except that he comes with the flying base.
I don't see what the problem is here. The rules are pretty clear on this.
Using the model's base to determine what the model hits is not game breaking in any sort of way.
If someone were to smash 4 units together almost base to base and close enough that the goblin's flying base can touch them all at the same time then that person has bigger issues to worry about than a doom diver possibly hitting all four at once.
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DQ:70+S++G+M-B+I+Pw40k93+ID++A+/eWD156R++T(T)DM++
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/09/24 23:20:34
Subject: Doom Diver question
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Painesville, Ohio, USA
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So they do tell you to use the Goblin, which context dictates is the flying model, and tells you to place it exactly as if firing a stone thrower. It states it does not use a template, but a model is not a Template so there is no contradiction there.
Yeah, except that he comes with the flying base.
--Devil's Advocate Mode On--
--Initiating Super-Legaleze--
Okay the Doom Diver Model, hereafter denoted as "Goblin", and the Base, to which the Goblin is attached.
By interpreting these two rules together, then the Goblin doesn't actually touch anything, ever. It is the Base that ends up potentially touching other models on the game field. Which, in turn, means that the Doom Diver never does anything, as the goblin model is what is used to determine what gets hit. (Ref. "Warhammer: Orcs and Goblins: Doom Diver, pg 27)
Since the Goblin cannot physically touch any model, as the Goblin is on the Base, then the Doom Diver shot has no effect on the game.
--Devil's Advocate Mode Off--
Though, I suppose if you physically throw the entire Doom Diver model at a unit, you could then count the Goblin as touching an enemy unit.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/09/25 00:12:05
Subject: Doom Diver question
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Models occupy the area of their base, which is why you measure to the base of the model (unless it does not have a base, however this is an exception)
Sorry, already covered, try again
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/09/25 01:54:02
Subject: Doom Diver question
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[DCM]
Tzeentch's Fan Girl
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Honestly Nosferatu, I think you're being intentionally obtuse for the purpose of annoying people. Congratulations on your success. I'm done with your inane argument.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/09/25 04:15:39
Subject: Doom Diver question
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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If by "being obtuse" you mean actually following the rules you choose to ignore for no solid reason except "I don't think they are rules" and without offering any support for your view then yes, I'm being obtuse.
Nice ad hominem - if you cannot argue the point attack the person presenting the argument. If you cannot contribute meaningfully to the thread I would suggest not posting otherwise you may be accused of trolling.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/09/25 04:20:51
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/09/25 04:55:02
Subject: Doom Diver question
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[DCM]
Tzeentch's Fan Girl
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I'm not attacking you. I'm merely stating my opinion that as you appear to be the only person on the face of the planet arguing in favor nonsense, that you are doing so with the intent of annoying people. As I have been sufficiently annoyed, I decided that I'm done arguing with your nonsense, and congratulated you - I'm not easily annoyed by anonymous words on my screen.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/09/25 05:14:37
Subject: Doom Diver question
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Then why bother posting at all?
If following the directive to place the Goblin where you want the shot to land is "nonsense", what do you consider "sense"? A dimensionless point? But where are the rules that let you do that? Having singularly failed to present an argumnt for your point is there no way you can even concede you might be wrong?
I had no intention of annoying you, I have simply presented logical and consistent arguments that are contrary to your opinion. If you get annoyed by that then there isn't a lot I can do: I'd suggest avoiding rules debates.
BTW: Stating someone is merely positng in order to annoy IS attacking the person and not debating the argument.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/09/25 05:48:27
Subject: Doom Diver question
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[DCM]
Tzeentch's Fan Girl
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Following your absurd logic, there should be models for giant bolts, big rocks, and cannonballs. There is no directive to place the goblin model. This has been pointed out to you and you fail to see the truth.
I'm alerting mods to lock thread as you and I have wandered off topic.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/09/25 10:17:46
Subject: Doom Diver question
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[DCM]
.. .-.. .-.. ..- -- .. -. .- - ..
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To be honest I have never, ever seen anyone ever use the flying goblin.
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2025: Games Played:8/Models Bought:162/Sold:169/Painted:125
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2012-15: Games Played:412/Models Bought: 1163/Sold:730/Painted:436 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/09/25 16:05:40
Subject: Doom Diver question
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Manfred von Drakken wrote:Following your absurd logic, there should be models for giant bolts, big rocks, and cannonballs. There is no directive to place the goblin model. This has been pointed out to you and you fail to see the truth.
I'm alerting mods to lock thread as you and I have wandered off topic.
"IF the Goblin hits the unit"
See, you're told to use a Goblin. Which Goblin would it be but the one for the Doom Diver model? Does it tell yuo to mark a dimensionless point - why it doesn't.
Oh btw it is not "absurd" logic as in all the exampoles you mention you are told what to do: you mark a point for cannoballs, bolt throwers you target a unit as per normal shooting etc. You just assume the DD works in the same way - despite no rules saying that you can do so.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/09/25 16:47:05
Subject: Doom Diver question
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Deadly Tomb Guard
Payson Utah, USA
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dude, you are trying to use the goblin as a template. I know that it not a template, but you are using it to the same effect. when ever you are told to use anything in the fashion you are trying to, you are directed by the rule book to "place the model\template\whatever over the point and any unit\model touched is hit." I understand your way of thinking, but it is wrong and certainly not logical.
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I am a Utah man sir, I live across the green, our gang is the jolliest that you have ever seen, Our co-eds are the fairest, ans each one's a shining star, our yell you'l hear it ringing through the mountains near and far.
Who am I sir? a UTAH MAN am I. A UTAH MAN sir, I will be till I die.
KI-YI
Were up to snuff, we never bluff were game for any fuss, no other gang of college men dare meet us in the MUSS. So fill your lungs and sing it out and shout it to the sky, we'll fight for dear old Crimson for a UTAH MAN AM I!!
GO UTES!!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/09/25 17:05:00
Subject: Doom Diver question
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Been Around the Block
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Goblins have 20 MM bases. All Goblins have 20 MM bases.
While the original package was sold with a flyer base, in previous editions the doom diver was actually a flyer so it was appropriate.
In the current rules the DD is not a flyer, therefore it cannot use a flyer base. The DD is "A Goblin" - and all goblins have 20 MM bases.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/09/25 23:31:16
Subject: Re:Doom Diver question
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Scarab with a Cracked Shell
Upstate South Carolina
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I regularly play against O&G, and I'd simply like to say one thing, specifically to Nosferatu1001.
Please, please, please let me know when you decide to use this at a tournament. I reaaaallly want to be standing right next to the TO. Should be a sight.
This is one of the more absurd contortions of the English language to prove a point that I've ever seen in gaming... and that says a decent bit, as I used to play V:tM a lot. No TO would ever approve this reading of the rule, IMHO.
Jason
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'The new light of science shines more brightly than the old light of sorcery. Why, then, do we not seem to see as far?' - the Sumaturan philosopher Sahlonum
Blessed Be. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/09/26 00:03:45
Subject: Doom Diver question
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Sorry, thought this was a rules thread, not a HWYPI one.
Spasheridan - except you have no permission to mount the model on any other base than the one it comes with. SO you follow that rule first. Also - where does it state GOblins use 20mm bases? They come with 20mm bases....meanin gyou are determining the size of base based on what base the model comes with. WHich is exactly what you do with the DD. If you cannot see the logical disconnect in your argument you must be quite amazingly short sighted.
You are instructed to place the goblin and any unit touched takes D6 hits. SO you take the goblin, place it (scatter etc) and see how many units are hit. Really, really not difficult. You might PLAY it that you pick a point, but that isnt what the rules actually state you are to do.
Also Staven - not playing O&G this is an exercise in determing that actual rules. Not "HWYPI" but what the rules actually SAY. THis lets you make appropriate house rules when and if you want to. If you cannot see that then reall that isn't my problem. IT would help if you read the thread where Ive stated that at least once.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/09/26 00:26:33
Subject: Doom Diver question
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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While I am loathe to mention it, Orcs and Goblins do have a precedent for a goblin model inflicting 1d6 attacks on any unit it touchs... aka the goblin fanatic. It would be interesting to compare the rules for how a fanatic inflicts wounds to how the doom diver inflicts wounds...
If nosferatu1001 would be so kind to post the fanatic rules, we can compare the two rules, in the same codex, that have a goblin hit and inflict 1d6 attacks on units touched. Sadly my book is home, thus I can not contribute the rule.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/09/27 19:16:06
Subject: Doom Diver question
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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LtCraggs wrote:
So they do tell you to use the Goblin, which context dictates is the flying model, and tells you to place it exactly as if firing a stone thrower. It states it does not use a template, but a model is not a Template so there is no contradiction there.
Yeah, except that he comes with the flying base.
--Devil's Advocate Mode On--
--Initiating Super-Legaleze--
Okay the Doom Diver Model, hereafter denoted as "Goblin", and the Base, to which the Goblin is attached.
By interpreting these two rules together, then the Goblin doesn't actually touch anything, ever. It is the Base that ends up potentially touching other models on the game field. Which, in turn, means that the Doom Diver never does anything, as the goblin model is what is used to determine what gets hit. (Ref. "Warhammer: Orcs and Goblins: Doom Diver, pg 27)
Since the Goblin cannot physically touch any model, as the Goblin is on the Base, then the Doom Diver shot has no effect on the game.
--Devil's Advocate Mode Off--
Though, I suppose if you physically throw the entire Doom Diver model at a unit, you could then count the Goblin as touching an enemy unit.
This adds humor to the thread but fails to add anything to the discusion.
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DQ:70+S++G+M-B+I+Pw40k93+ID++A+/eWD156R++T(T)DM++
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/09/27 20:01:12
Subject: Doom Diver question
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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right, back from the (rather fething awful) GD this year, and found the rules for Fanatics (too many army cases...)
Fanatics only deliver hits when tehy move through or are moved through, there is nothing about "hitting" an enemy unit - which makes sense as they deal damage (usually!) in the movement phase.
So it doesnt really help eitherway....
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/09/28 19:57:06
Subject: Doom Diver question
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills
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Mildly interesting easter egg found in rules.
Chances I will ever encounter a person attempting to use the rules as you are describing: Virtually nil.
Chances I will ALSO encounter a tournament organizer who will allow it: Too small to bother estimating.
Utility of this discussion: Zero.
As long as it entertains, feel free to continue it.
Moderator hat ON:
Manfred, your posts have crossed the line a bit into Ad Hominem attacks. Please be careful on that front, and try to avoid it. Nosferatu, bear in mind that your zealous, even aggressive defense of your RAW argument did invite heated dissent. I appreciate your also having civilized your tone a bit.
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Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.
Maelstrom's Edge! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/09/28 22:33:38
Subject: Doom Diver question
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Exactly: it is one of those cases where its not even clear it IS an easter egg, just assumptions are made that mean it works in practice as a single point entity.
I guess part of the issue is the D6 hits abstraction - it makes it seem more like a magic missile which just "hits" the unit. Another Matt Ward "special" on writing clear rules I guess...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2009/09/28 22:43:47
Subject: Doom Diver question
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills
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Yup. D6 hits + saying the weapon doesn't use a template = I will never meet anyone who even considers what you are suggesting. The intent seems obvious.
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Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.
Maelstrom's Edge! |
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