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Thanks for all your input!

ManwithIronHands: Chaos appeals to me mainly because of the conversion possibilites when doing something warped and demonic. And, at some point in my life, I NEED to get that bloodthirster of Khorne that Forge World makes. This is such a lovely, scary, fething huge, horned monstrosity...but, for my army now, I'd rather go with...


... Imperial Guard!

I finally decided on this for several of the reasons already stated in this thread.
Additionally, there were following points:

1. I need to like the miniatures of a force. The Eldar being mostly metal is a point for me, I want some posing possiblities and I really dislike warped casts. Furthermore, for example, the warlocks...they seem disproportioned to me, at least some of them. While Eldar are being described as tall, athletic and rather long-limbed humanoids, some of the warlocks have that dwarven look, I think.

2. I read somewhere that on the new Demolisher kit you don't need to magnetize the main/hull weapons and sponsons! Apparently, it's possible to change them without glue and magnets. I really like the Leman Russes, and the possiblity to either field a nice ~200mm cannon, a 3000rpm gatling gun or a few gigajoule of plasma death...that's just great. I want that tank. I like the many possiblities for IG heavy support tanks and even for stuff like sentinels. The fire prism, the Eldar "heavy tank", has a real cool main cannon but...you can't exchange it with seven other cool main cannons like it is with the Russes.

Therefore, I'm now slowly steering in the direction of ordering the necessary stuff. I posted an army list in the army list forum a while ago and, at the moment, I think I'd like to roll with this:

1x CCS
2x infantry squad (for the vets)
3x Chimera
1x Demolisher/Punisher/Excecutioner
1x HWT with autocannon - (In test games I noticed that my transport opening power (against orks, for example) on long range only consists of three multilasers and the LR armaments. Demolisher is probably too short ranged for some occasions, Punisher is useless against AV12 (devilfish), Executioner is great, but expensive points-wise. So, for games where I need to stay in the defense to avoid onrushing CC hordes, I'd like an additional transport popping gun. A BS4 autocannon should be able to contribute a bit to the general long-range firepower. Maybe I should get more of them?)

What do you think of this? Any big OHNOEZ, DON'T DO IT! out there?

Thank again for contributing to this thread!
Witzkatz

I would pick guard purely because you can do an all plastic army i hate metal miniatures

Eldar are all plastic as well, unless you buy blisters (Though the same can be said for Guard - save for the crappy Vostroyans)

I would take Eldar simply because GW has skyrocketed Guard prices now that they have a new Codex. At least with Eldar you get your money's worth. Plus it gives you a chance to do some cool Asian-inspired freehand (Dragons, Snakes, Rising Sun, etc...) once you get the hang of painting and want to try something new

I thought aspect warriors like Banshees were metal? Or are they plastic if you buy them in boxes? Now I'm confused. How many of the Eldar troops are metal and how many are plastics?

About IG prices: There's always that whirly, swirly online shop that sells the stuff up to 50% cheaper...

Eldar Aspect warriors are metal yea, but then again so are Kasrkin, Regimental Advisors, and Commissars for the Guard

Well, kasrkin are not that popular anymore, and regimental advisors and commissars are little upgrade units for IG - while aspect warriors are the units that define Eldar *sigh* Now I'm not that sure anymore...just painting an Eldar guardian...

...you're right about the thing that, with an Eldar army, I could probably try some cool designs, especially on the tanks - while IG still looks best with ordinary greens and khakis, I think. Not that spectacular. Both may be interesting to paint, maybe the Eldar one is a bit more creative...

*SIGH*!

Just take whichever one you like. Why leave it up to other people? Just go to your local store, look at some of the stuff for both, and decide. statwise Eldar and IG infantry are pretty much on par, with the exception of the Eldar being faster. IG tanks are tougher, but Eldar get better CC capability and can cover ground quicker without difficult terrain worries. Plus their Psychic units can be quite scary if used right.

EDIT: I still buy the Kasrkin units! :( They're still good for Grenadiers, Stormtroopers, and (if a Cadian player) Kasrkin. And bah. Just buy up like 50 boxes of Guardians. It's all about the Angry Mob these days.

Yeah, I guess you're right about that I just should make up my mind...


...one thing I have to tell you, though. I just asked my mother, rather jokingly, for her opinion about either IG or Eldar, just from the looks of it. She clearly voted for Eldar, because the IG look like soldiers. Soldiers, bad. Bad. She argued that she likes the alien people more, because the IG people look like real people, and real people fighting is not good.
Just out of curiosity, I showed her pictures of Tyranids and Chaos minions - Soulgrinders, possessed Slaanesh Chaos Marines, Bloodthirsters - and she really liked those things! All the realy nasty evil stuff 40k has to offer - she likes it. She says it looks much more like someone used creativity in it than with the Imperial Guard. The fact that a Soulgrinder is a half-machine, half-daemon, total-crazed entity only fueled by hate, loathing and the urge to maim, burn and kill didnt bother her - while the Imperial Guard basically tries to protect humanity from things like that and fights for the survival of people like you and me is somehow "bad".

Oh, well. I mean, she's got a point there, with Chaos you have more artistic freedom with modelling and stuff than with IG...great, now I'm thinking about another army.

OK, I play IG and Eldar as my only two armys and I have to say, I vastly prefer the IG. However, you have to think what you are getting yourself into here, an IG player never finishes his/her army, he/she only opens up new avenues of expantion, you'll get sucked in. It'll be a blast, but it might be hard getting a new army when you could have another leman russ, and maybe a baneblade, or on that note, why not do an armoured company?
With eldar, it is very neat and tidy, you get an army list, prefect it, learn to know it like the back of your hand, and then keep on useing it untill you get a new codex. I have only written two armylists for any givin point value ever seince I bought the eldar, and I've gotten pretty good at it, but I still prefer my IG by a longshot. Dead ends just aint my cup o' tea. I can change my list between games and still win, or at least have fun, mix and match, experement, and the great thing is, there is no "right" or "best" super-build for IG, whereas for eldar are almost carving ruts into the surface of armybuilder.

JMHO

Hm, sniperjolly, that steers me further into the direction of the IG. I just had a nother playtesting game at 750 points and I have to say, the executioner is absolutely awesome! Was shot at for 5 turns by four to seven XV8 missile pod suits and did not take a glance or pen the whole time. Yay camo netting! Yay AV14/13/11!

So, while I'm at the moment quite sure that IG is my future army, I have a question. I used a scout sentinel in that game, 40 points flat, that outflanked from the left, assaulted a squad of fire warriors, killed one, scared them away and then they ran off the board! 40 points that take a 70 points scoring unit out of the game...I think I'd like something like that for my army, an outflanking mosquito. So It thought...1 CCS, 2x vetsquads, sentinel, maybe some HWTs...sounds like a battleforce!

However, my question now is: Is the CCS in the battleforce like the one you can buy for free? I mean, does it pack all the options like plasma gun, sniper rifle, flamer, meltagun, voxcaster, power weapon, power fist, chainsword...? Or is it a "lower" variant?


At the moment, I'm pondering about Catachans again...yes, models are a bit ugly, but Catachans are just straight cooler than normal cadian-style infantry from the fluff point. And the use of a scout sentinel would fit them well, too. (Well, the three chimeras I plan to buy for them might not be that fluffy, but they could use them as amphibious boats to drive down jungle rivers!)
So, for the people who worked with the Catachans, are the models really that bad? Maybe I could get the new CCS that is out for them ...and Straken and Harker are just so fething cool...

Ew - I look at the Catachan/Cadian battleforce and cringe. That just seems like a lot of money for not a lot of happiness.

It appears it is the same spure selection yes. I don't play IG, but from looking at GW site they look the same.

Yes, the command squad either catachan or cadian is the exact same as the one in the battle force.

I really like the idea of using chimeras as riverboats, they are fully amphibious, right?

It sounds to me like you would prefer Imperial Guard. A good friend of mine plays Guard and flogs my Space Marines all the time. As a new player, if you play Guard, you can afford to make more in-game mistakes than if you played Eldar.

Hope that helps
Cheers

You are certainly putting some thought to this!

If you have access to some codexes, trial both with stand in models. Try at least 5 games wth different lists each, with a mix of deployments/objectives etc.

At the end of each game, document what worked with the list, and the moments you thought were cool and or sucked.

Then at the end of the trial - do a comparison from an informed perspective.

Also check out L Bursley's WIP - its got awesome paint jobs on some IG done for commission, and his own eldar army.

My first army was Guard, way back in the days of 2nd ed. very fun to play with, model, and destroy all xenos with. sniper is correct in saying that an IG army is never truly finished, but it also leads into other things.

I went from playing IG and when the DH book came out I picked up a squad of GK termies (muhahahah 3rd ed guard with termies), which are wonderful models. they led me into picking up an inquisitor 2 more units of storm troops, and a squad of grey knight marines (muhahaha marines with LRBTs), after those models I decided I needed some rhinos for my DH stormtroops. That lead me into picking up a tac squad for when I didnt feel like dragging a big heavy box of GK's around. That lead me into my marine army which now is a massive monster of a force spanning 2 companies of battle brothers and an arsenel of vehicles that rain the emperors wrath opon my foes

Anyway starting an IG army is a great experiance, there always full of character and full of pain giving goodness.

Weather you go cadian or catachan they are great models with endless kit bashing and conversion possiblities.

some suggestions I have are if you go catachan pick up an empire knights box the knights of the white wolf heads are great for catachans and you can use the pelts that come with it to enhance the look of your men. and if you can get your hands on any extra plastic special weapons from marine tac squads they are easy to add to a squad of catachans where cadians you almost have to buy the special weapons blisters.

I vote for BACON! it is delicious, and salty.

On a serious note, don't worry about what your friends play, only what you WANT to play. I started with Nid's because I loved the concept of an alien race that devoured worlds for no other reason than to... devour worlds lol. However, after looking at a guy play Chaos SM's I got so convinced they look utterly awesome I have made that my main army. I don't care who else plays it, I love the variety and cheese of my CSM's. Yeah, we have some crappy stuff (like our Bikers), but it doesn't make me like em any less!

If you wanna play IG, play IG. Just know they are ranged heavy. If you wanna play eldar, go with it. The number of heavy weapons they pack, unique rule sets, and the fact they have assault units, is def a change from IG bro.

GL!

Guard on Guard action is one of the most satisfying experiences in 40k. Having a friend who also plays guard should if anything encourage you to do that same.

Thanks for all your input! It seems that more people are now in favour of the Guard and I like your arguments.

Uriels_Flame: So, what don't you like about the battleforce? CCS, 2 vetsquads, some free heavy weapons and a Sentinel - sounds like reasonable IG choices to me?

However, I agree on what darkkt proposed: As much as I like IG, I will playtest another one or two games with Eldar to see how I like playing with them in different set-ups.

On the topic of catachan guardsmen: I noticed that the 'eavy Metal painters that painted the catachans in the IG codex used lots of blacklining on the muscles of the catachans huge upper arms. I'm not sure, but I think they can look less steroidized if one uses only washes to deepen the shadows between the muscles...maybe then they wouldn't look so ridiculous in some pictures.

I'll let you know how my next Eldar playtesting games come out and how I feel about them then!

Witzkatz wrote:On the topic of catachan guardsmen: I noticed that the 'eavy Metal painters that painted the catachans in the IG codex used lots of blacklining on the muscles of the catachans huge upper arms. I'm not sure, but I think they can look less steroidized if one uses only washes to deepen the shadows between the muscles...maybe then they wouldn't look so ridiculous in some pictures.

those were painted way the hell back in 3rd ed when they didnt have washes, there were inks but they didnt have the same effect.

I just don't like the contents of the box. I'm not a guard player, but I would think the "battleforce" would be almost double what comes in it. I don't believe point for price value is inherent in this box is all.

If you need them, by all means.

Uriels_Flame: Well, that's the thing with Guard. From the guard battleforce, you can build a basic PCS, two infantry squads, ML-HWS and Scout Sentinel with MLas. That gives you...roundabout 225 points. However, you can build a CCS with medi-pack, standard, meltagun, power weapon, vox - two vetsquads with 1-2 special weapons, vox and MLs in the squads and an assault sentinel with PC - this should come out to...roughly...uh...390 points. So, there's a broad spectrum of how many points can be in there, you only need to field it this or that way.

Well, today's the last day maelstrom has its nice discount action...however, I guess I'll go with the patient route and rather wait another few days, play my Eldar playtest game from yesterday to the end and sleep a few more nights over this.

At the moment, I tend to go with the catachans, for fluff, rambo-style (I definitely will want to have Straken, Harker and Marbo at some point ), for miniatures that are really different from my friend's cadian soldiers, for lulz about their ridiculous musculature and - in general - for Imperial Guard, because while Eldar can work for me playwise, I guess, I feel that I like painting clothes and musculature more than those sleek Eldar outlines. Tried to paint a Biel-Tan guardian yesterday, this white armour is hell to paint with nice shadows and highlights.

1x catachan battleforce
3x chimera

Would be my actual shopping list. Not sure if I already want to add a Demolisher to it - a 60 ton tank in a catachan army is somewhat funny and I'm thinking about getting a Valkyrie... Yeah, everyone gets those, but my mother gave me this 50€ voucher for our local GW shop for birthday, so I HAVE to spend some money there and a Valkyrie would fit right in there...and, honestly, it's just a cool model. (A Leman Russ would be the more competitive choice at the moment, I guess, though...*ponder*)

Postscriptum: Does anyone know what weapons the HWTs in the battleforces pack? My friend that bought the cadian box has got three MLs, although I'm not sure if he could have built something else out of it.

Witzkatz wrote:Postscriptum: Does anyone know what weapons the HWTs in the battleforces pack? My friend that bought the cadian box has got three MLs, although I'm not sure if he could have built something else out of it.

The heavy weapons sprues come with the parts for every possible heavy weapon. Three each of heavy bolters, mortars, missile launchers, lascannons, and autocannons. Some of those weapons have pieces in common and since they only expect you to make three weapons teams they only give you six crewmen, so if you want to use the kit to make more than three weapons teams you have to get a little (but not very) creative.

Raxmei wrote:The heavy weapons sprues come with the parts for every possible heavy weapon. Three each of heavy bolters, mortars, missile launchers, lascannons, and autocannons. Some of those weapons have pieces in common and since they only expect you to make three weapons teams they only give you six crewmen, so if you want to use the kit to make more than three weapons teams you have to get a little (but not very) creative.

To legaly use a HWT now they have to be on a 3" base. it can be one guy on the base but you need the 3" base, gone are the days of seperate model gunner/ loader teams. but from a HW squad box and a infantry squad box, and 6 extra 3" bases you can make, 3 Lasscannon/ autocannon/ heavy bolters. 3 missile launchers, and 3 mortars. and have 4 guys left over for special weapons or something.

PS: heres wehre you can order the bases. dont get them individually as 2 are about the same price as this pack. having a few extra 1 and 2 inch bases around is handy, or you can sell or trade them off to your friends.

PPS : oops forgot the link http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1430061&prodId=prod1140081

Thanks for your answer!
Nice to know that every kind of heavy weapon is in there. Maybe it is possible to magnetize the heavy guns in some way? Granted, could be some work, but would be nice to have interchangeable parts. Could give trouble with the gunners looking and posing different, because a guy firing a ML looks different from a guy firing a mortar, but I guess I could go for general poses.

The possibility for every kind of heavy weapon to add to my little force in the vetsquads is quite nice, I think. Gives them some versatility - either speed-drive up with a chimera and hold position, or form a gunline at the beginning and embark into chimera for a race to the objectives on turn 5. Hmm.

I guess I'll really have to choose IG over Eldar at least for style reasons. While floating tanks and shuriken guns are cool, I think the deep thunder of firing autocannons and the cough of mortars is just more manly than pew-pewing non-explosive-based high-tech guns.

I guess I'll really have to choose IG over Eldar at least for style reasons. While floating tanks and shuriken guns are cool, I think the deep thunder of firing autocannons and the cough of mortars is just more manly than pew-pewing non-explosive-based high-tech guns.

Good choice.
The IG codex is up to date, while the Eldar codex seems a bit outdated as Eldar armies have some glaring problems these days.

Aye, and if you dont have a good handle on he game they can be tricky to play with.

Hey folks!

Just wanted to say that, today, I made my decision and ordered the catachan battleforce and three chimeras. Now the train is rolling. Thank you for all your posts and contributions and your help in deciding what my army should be.

Interesting, I think back to the days where I only knew of 40k because they sold miniatures in the same shop where I bought roleplaying rulebooks...and while looking around a bit I thought "Well, if I were to start an army like that, I guess I'd choose either Tau or Catachans!" And now, it's one of those two. I guess the instinctive decisions might be sometimes the best...and they are even better when backed up by an objective discussion like we had in this thread here.

I guess when the stuff finally arrives, I might open up a WIP thread in the painting section and show you what will become of those soldiers. Darn, I guess now I have to buy that airbrush for the tanks I've been pondering about for so long...

Thanks again to all of you and long live Catachan!

Good decision.
IG gives you plenty of options and the codex is up-to-date.