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Well, I'm glad this came up before I spent a bunch of time scratch-building Dreds.

Malecus wrote:Fit more into the Force Org Chart, allowing you to have 9 kans and 2 dreads in the same list, potentially.

Or 5 Dreads


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KaloranSLC wrote:Well, I'm glad this came up before I spent a bunch of time scratch-building Dreds.

It lets you take 2 Dreads AND 3 Battlewaggons. How awesome is that?!

don_mondo, the current BA FAQ still has one question, which clearly specifies that Death Company are a "normal scoring unit". I got that off the GW website about 3 minutes ago.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180159_Blood_Angels_Codex_and_FAQ_2007-08_5th_Edition.pdf

You sir are a liar and a charlatan.

The FAQ is about Victory points, not if they are "Scoring" or not:

Q. How do you work out the victory points for a Death Company squad?
A. The victory points of a Death Company squad is equal to the total points value of any additional Death Company models and extra wargear purchased for the squad. For example: a Blood Angels army contains six units that allow one Death Company model to be added to the initial unit composition of the Death Company squad. This six-strong initial squad is a normal scoring unit worth 0 victory points. If the player decides to add two models to the squad (+60 pts) and to equip the entire squad with Jump Packs (8 x 5 pts, for a total of +40 pts), the squad is now worth 100 victory points.

From your post:

"this six-strong initial squad is a normal scoring unit"

ajfirecracker wrote:From your post:

"this six-strong initial squad is a normal scoring unit"

Yes, for the purposes of Victory Points. In any case, a "Normal Scoring Unit" doesn't let them score, it means they follow the Normal rules for determining if they are a Scoring unit, which they are not because they fulfil none of the criteria for counting as scoring.

KaloranSLC:

I think the idea isn't to give you scoring Dreadnoughts, but to give you five Heavy Support choices. You could take two Dreadnoughts and nine Killer Kans, for example.

Units are not scoring for the purposes of victory points, but for capturing objectives, unless I've seriously misread the rules.

And nowhere does it say that they follow the normal rules for determining if a unit is scoring, it says they are a normal scoring unit. (i.e. a unit that is both normal and scoring)

ajfirecracker wrote:Units are not scoring for the purposes of victory points, but for capturing objectives, unless I've seriously misread the rules.

Yes, try Reading the FAQ Question. it is about victory points.

I agree. It is about victory points. Got it.

However, it says they're a normal scoring unit. If we accept FAQs as rules, they're a normal scoring unit. Note that this phrase is never defined, so we're required to parse out its meaning, substituting english definitions for game definitions when we find words without game definitions.

Normal, loosely, means without irregularities.
Scoring is well-defined (by GW), and means that it can both capture and contest objectives.
Unit is also well-defined, and refers to a group of models that fights together.

In other words, the FAQ states that Death Company is just like any other group of models that fights together and can both capture and control objectives.

(Unless you're claiming they can score in VP-counted games, but in games where you don't count VP, they can't score, on the basis of the question used to generate the response)

The term "normal" or "normally" is used in the rules to refer to more basic or general rules covering a situation.

The normal rules for vehicles are covered on pp.56-64, followed by the normal rules for the various types of vehicles, which are themselves special cases of the normal rules.

Right, nurglitch, but if the rule said a particular vehicle was a "normal skimmer vehicle" that would mean that it followed the normal rules for skimmer vehicles, not that it is a vehicle which we should separately assess the skimmer properties of.

Similarly, Death Company follow the normal rules for scoring units. (i.e. They are a scoring unit which follows the normal rules given to describe such units, namely, that they may capture objectives)

ajfirecracker wrote:Similarly, Death Company follow the normal rules for scoring units. (i.e. They are a scoring unit which follows the normal rules given to describe such units, namely, that they may capture objectives)

No, because:
a) FAQ != Rules
b) Scoring is referring to Victory Points
c) They are Elites, not Troops and have no special rule like Pedro+Sternguard

ajfirecracker:

Yeah, that's my point, that if a rule referenced Falcons as "skimmer vehicles", they follow all the rules for vehicles and for skimmers. Given that the rules for skimmers are a special case of the normal vehicle rules, then of course you follow the normal rules for vehicles until you encounter cases covered by the skimmer rules.

The only point that matters of those three is FAQ!=Rules. If true, it does indeed make them not scoring. However, I've been under the impression that competitive play as well as YMDC treats the FAQ as rules. Is this not the case?

ajfirecracker wrote:The only point that matters of those three is FAQ!=Rules. If true, it does indeed make them not scoring. However, I've been under the impression that competitive play as well as YMDC treats the FAQ as rules. Is this not the case?

Yes, most people do. However, the FAQ is referring to VICTORY POINTS, not objectives.

Nurglitch, the rules for scoring units are a subset of the rules for units. So you would follow the rules for units, unless the rules for scoring units were different, in which case you would follow the rules for scoring units.

The other option (which does not apply to Death Company, per the FAQ) is that you would follow the rules for units all the time and ignore the rules for scoring units, as the unit in question (say, for example, an empty BT Land Raider) is not a scoring unit.


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ajfirecracker wrote:Units are not scoring for the purposes of victory points, but for capturing objectives, unless I've seriously misread the rules.

And nowhere does it say that they follow the normal rules for determining if a unit is scoring, it says they are a normal scoring unit. (i.e. a unit that is both normal and scoring)

Meaning that it does not matter what the topic of the question is. Particularly if FAQ=Rules, because then all of the rules are true all of the time, not just when you're evaluating VP.


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Also, strictly speaking, the FAQ is referring to both Victory Points and Death Company, and the answer pertains to Victory Points and Death Company (and, as a property of DC, scoring status).

ajfirecracker:

I do believe I just pointed out that where the rules for scoring units are a subset of the rules for units, they follow the rules for units until they encounter cases concerning scoring.

Why exactly do you repeat back what I've said as though I was saying something else?

This is sort of a sideways rule. It's as if I were to find a hidden gem in a FAQ from GW like "No ork player may hop on their left foot for the entirety of the opponent's turn, because if they do, then that would cause Land Raiders to be front armor 13 instead of the proper value of 15". The FAQ is talking about random XYZ (left foot hopping Orks), but in its text addresses something totally separate (namely Land Raiders being even harder to kill than before).

Regardless, the GW FAQs are a set of suggestions on how to address things if there are questions. Only the Errata is binding, unless you and your opponent or the organizer of a given tournament states otherwise.

Nurglitch, my point is this: Per the FAQ, Death Company follow scoring rules as if they are a scoring unit like any other scoring unit. I did re-iterate that to make it clear.

However, what they do not do (per the FAQ) is follow normal rules and then check to see (as if any other unit) if they follow the scoring rules when such rules come into effect.


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Your post made it sound as if you were advocating the second position, so I wanted to be clear.

So to find out if the unit is scoring, you need to reference a question about Victory Points?

Makes. . . sense?

No, kirsanth. It makes no sense. But it can still be the rules, and if you treat the FAQ as rules, it is.

kirsanth wrote:So to find out if the unit is scoring, you need to reference a question about Victory Points?

Makes. . . sense?

Durrrr. It's a Moot point after all </annoykirsanth>


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ajfirecracker wrote:No, kirsanth. It makes no sense. But it can still be the rules, and if you treat the FAQ as rules, it is.

But you are not looking at the whole rule and twisting a single part to match your needs.

ajfirecracker:

How on earth did my post make it sound like I was proposing that the Death Company followed the normal rules for scoring units (and thus not be scoring units) when they have special rules saying that they are scoring units?

I was just pointing out that normal is defined in the Warhammer rules.

They don't have special rules, they have a FAQ. (Although if you treat said FAQ as rules, it has the effect.)

I didn't realize that normal was defined, would you mind throwing up a page number?

ajfirecracker wrote:I didn't realize that normal was defined, would you mind throwing up a page number?

Page 90

Gwar, I don't see anything about normal units, scoring or otherwise, on that page. I do see scoring units. Perhaps you've mixed up the pages?

ajfirecracker:

I've already pointed out how the rules define "normal", so asking for a page number is beside the point.

I just want to see it, for future reference. I've had the unfortunate luck of having people play strangely against me, and I like to know where all my rules are.


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Gwar, I don't play BA. I'm not twisting anything to suit my needs. I'm saying that the FAQ is clearly indicating that they're a normal scoring unit. "This six-strong initial squad is a normal scoring unit worth 0 victory points." This addresses VP, as per the FAQ's topic, and it indicates that they're a normal scoring unit.

What's unclear or twisted about that?

Nurglitch wrote:The term "normal" or "normally" is used in the rules to refer to more basic or general rules covering a situation.

The normal rules for vehicles are covered on pp.56-64, followed by the normal rules for the various types of vehicles, which are themselves special cases of the normal rules.