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Kilkrazy wrote:At various periods of British history gin and opium were completely uncontrolled. Gin caused a lot more social degradation.

I cannot sit by and watch your attacks on gin any longer. Say your goodbyes to your family, I will see you at the duelling range at dawn.

2 old timey flintlock pistols... ten thousand dollars.



2 stunt doubles... five thousand dollars.



That smile you get every single time... priceless.



For everything else there is... CASH ONLY?!? Are you freaking kidding me...

"Scientists Say UK Drug Classification System Is Flawed"

A new (March 2007) UK study suggests that the current UK drug classification system of A, B, and C of the Misuse of Drugs Act is flawed and should be replaced by an evidence-based system of potential harm that would place alcohol and tobacco higher than cannabis and ecstasy.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/65988.php



Interesting read. Saw something similar to this on Horizon once.

Thee are a few things wrong with that table. For one they seem to be valueing tobaco based on long term damage. They haven't considered that Canabis is mainly used alongside tobacco. Indirect effects, such as violence caused by alcohol and crack users doesn't sound like it has been considered. And also most street ecstasy contains cocktails of cocain and katamine aswell as mdma.

Whether the abc system is wrong or not I would I have severe doubt that was a better alternative. Although I do agree, from experience, ecstasy and shrooms should be nowhere near class A status.

I don’t see how an all or nothing system of legality would help. There is a very good reason why Cannabis and Crack are classified differently. Their effects and potential long term damage are so far removed from one another means that punishing their users and dealers in the same way would simply be ludicrous.

With regards to cannabis I personally think it should have remained at a class C. There is nothing to be gained by criminalising cannabis users, the majority of which are productive, tax paying and otherwise law abiding members of society. I realise some are thieving scumbags, but I would rather they be arrested and charged with being thieving scumbags as opposed for their cannabis use.

What benefit is there to putting Students and Professionals in jail because they enjoy a spiff on their weekends? Apart of course from making police statistics look good and satisfying the bloodlust of right wing tabloids. It’s a massive waste of police time, won’t stop any muggings or burglaries and can wreck lives. Far better to employ far stiffer sentences for the scumbags who resort to mugging and burglaries.

The A to C classification is fair, there is a world of difference between many of those drugs.
Not all similar offences are the same.

As for cannabis, for some it is helpful, IIRC Parkinsons sufferers are greatly aided by cannabis, and it was a long time before they could get the drug legally. However 'legalise it' no thanks we have enough problems with those narcotics that are legal. Binge drinking as a case in point.

Booze was a problem when the Americans banned it, and it lead to such bad other problems, the growth of organised crime, that they ended up unbanning it.

Banning any kind of drug doesn't necessarily solve social problems.

The question is whether the social problems of a legal drug are better or worse than when it is banned.

I have no doubt that use of marijuana would be lowered if it were legal, and serious research was used to inform the public as is with tobacco and alcohol.

Crack and heroin, and meth/crank are the main reasons that I am wary of the whole legalize everything stance. I personally know people who have lost their lives over using these drugs, and condoning the use of them appears to be extremely irresponsible. I have no doubts that a compromise of sorts could be achieved, but in no way do I think that just legalizing everything in one go will solve some of the problems caused by these substances.

I do not condone the use of tobacco either, but I happen to smoke, so I am no role model in that respect... not that many would have reason for that in the first place . Alcohol is a rather personal choice, and I have no doubts that many "Alcoholics" (of which there are many real ones) are in want and need of attention, rather than 12 steps designed to force a person to change their perspective.

I am not entirely convinced that legalizing all drugs would produce a better situation for the U.S., but I do know that there are many prescription drugs that are only slightly better for the user compared to the harder substances available on the street. Many people self-medicate to overcome their problems, which is a problem in itself, but I can hardly say that most methods of containment and healing actually do any good for most. We seem to approach the problem from a "drug users are bad people" stand point in the U.S. which I feel is the biggest problem in this situation.

Using substances does not make you a bad person, and when someone encounters nothing but reprimand and intolerance, they are extremely likely to not care in the slightest what any experts happen to advise. This situation is so common in drug treatment that I cannot imagine why the system has not been fixed. I do think that overall AA has on of the best systems to bring people together and provide them with a teamwork that they so sorely lacked before. That being said, and as I mentioned earlier, AA is simply not for everyone, and finding an appropriate sponsor for your needs can be extremely stressful. As a fact most people that say they understand you, simply do not, and are using that line to help you open up to them even more. This open wide technique is a sure fire way to scare off the worst cases of personal pain, and thus these people receive no treatment whatsoever; these cats are usually the ones that end up pushing carts, and living on the street as a career option. Needless to say, these guys (and some gals) never really make it back up to the surface simply because the treatment they were offered did not address their symptoms and needs.

It is great and all that generalizing (and in someways trivializing addiction) peoples problems works for some, due mainly to the fact that all they really wanted was for someone to listen; this approach leaves countless individuals to sink or... well sink really, there are no other options for most in that situation.

"Note"
There is a huge difference between forcing conversation on someone, and accepting them as an individual with their own thoughts. Telling someone you understand when you do not, is very ignorant, and a sure fire way to block any healing that you could have adjusted for the persons own needs. Complicated... sure, but as someone who accepts responsibility to help others, I would expect a certain level of focus and dedication that most sponsors either cannot offer, or will not offer.

No, I am not an alcoholic.

After seeing kids from newborn up continually wreathed in smoke from weed and crack in the place I lived, the thought of legalizing drugs really scares me.

I have to say that you must have been living in quite a bad place Relapse... sorry to hear that.

It is quite unfortunate that there are crack houses and the like, but I am not sure that drugs being illegal make that situation any less likely to happen that if drugs were legal. The interaction between dealer (pusher really) and user form a bond of social interaction that takes it's toll on people personally and as a community. This interaction and social construct is the core of most substance abuse problems, and the reason that we have so many people using substances.

I know kids that smoke meth and pot on a regular basis, and the fact that it is illegal to do any of these things, only serves to make it easier for the kids to gain access to these things. You could extrapolate to find that in some situations there will still be black markets aside the legality of the substance.

Relapse wrote:After seeing kids from newborn up continually wreathed in smoke from weed and crack in the place I lived, the thought of legalizing drugs really scares me.

Children frequently die from being left in a hot car for too long as well, though. Or suffer do to alcoholism in their parents.

I would think grouping people who let their children breathe in crack smoke all day would fit in better with abusive/negligent parents than regular drug criminals.

It was a fairly rough place I was living at during that time of my life, but rent was cheap and that's what I was looking for. I didn't do drugs or drink and can take care of myself, so people learned early on not to try screwing with me.
The thing is that if drugs were made legal, I could see it would be a far more common thing to have kids in these kinds of situations. From what I saw it was a situation where the kids got indoctinated into the lifestyle and never drew a truly straight breath.
That 6 months was one of the most educating parts of my life where drug culture was concerned. I thought I knew quite a bit from my high school days and druggies I used to hang out with, but that place was like a look into the abyss.
Any risk that the situation I witnessed could be multiplied many times over through legalization isn't something I think is worth it.

So staying in the status-quo is the only way to make things better? Is that why we see a rising proportion of this same problem under our current system?

You say that anything that makes it more likely... and I am going to have to ask you what makes it more possible, plausible, and rational to assume that we are safer from this issue under our current laws.

Please go into great detail, if at all possible.

Relapse wrote:It was a fairly rough place I was living at during that time of my life, but rent was cheap and that's what I was looking for. I didn't do drugs or drink and can take care of myself, so people learned early on not to try screwing with me.
The thing is that if drugs were made legal, I could see it would be a far more common thing to have kids in these kinds of situations. From what I saw it was a situation where the kids got indoctrinated into the lifestyle and never drew a truly straight breath.
That 6 months was one of the most educating parts of my life where drug culture was concerned. I thought I knew quite a bit from my high school days and druggies I used to hang out with, but that place was like a look into the abyss.
Any risk that the situation I witnessed could be multiplied many times over through legalization isn't something I think is worth it.

Wouldn't the things that the drug cartels and "narco-terrorists" have done be a good counter-example, though?

Wrexasaur wrote:So staying in the status-quo is the only way to make things better? Is that why we see a rising proportion of this same problem under our current system?

You say that anything that makes it more likely... and I am going to have to ask you what makes it more possible, plausible, and rational to assume that we are safer from this issue under our current laws.

Please go into great detail, if at all possible.

It's a fair question you ask, and unfortunatly for me, I'm not that elequent a speaker.
If you look at the drugs seized within and at our borders and kept off the streets then you know that at least it's that much less to go around. If drugs were legal, it would follow that they would be more widely used if past human nature is any guide.
I've said it on the last page that I think it's counter productive to stick someone in jail with murderers, rapists, thieves, etc. for being smoking a joint. I'd like to see these people sentenced to community service working with burnouts and people that have suffered from the fallout of alcohol and drugs, smokers with cancer, and the like so they can get a good idea how they could possibly end up.
There were a lot of people in that crack house that never thought they'd end up there. Maybe if they were younger and did something like what I suggest they might have turned out different.
All that being said, I'm afraid that we're going to learn the hard way about what will happen when drugs are legalized. As bad as things are, I think they'll be worse.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Relapse wrote:It was a fairly rough place I was living at during that time of my life, but rent was cheap and that's what I was looking for. I didn't do drugs or drink and can take care of myself, so people learned early on not to try screwing with me.
The thing is that if drugs were made legal, I could see it would be a far more common thing to have kids in these kinds of situations. From what I saw it was a situation where the kids got indoctrinated into the lifestyle and never drew a truly straight breath.
That 6 months was one of the most educating parts of my life where drug culture was concerned. I thought I knew quite a bit from my high school days and druggies I used to hang out with, but that place was like a look into the abyss.
Any risk that the situation I witnessed could be multiplied many times over through legalization isn't something I think is worth it.

Wouldn't the things that the drug cartels and "narco-terrorists" have done be a good counter-example, though?

How do you mean?

An example of the damage that drug prohibition has caused.

No other black market would give those groups the kind of money they currently have; without the drug money they would die out or become much less powerful almost immediately.

Relapse wrote:All that being said, I'm afraid that we're going to learn the hard way about what will happen when drugs are legalized. As bad as things are, I think they'll be worse.

I think a political compromise is sorely needed on this subject. I will not and have not said I fully support legalization of all drugs (controlled substances) for a lot of reasons, one of which is very similar to your same perspective. I know plenty of down and outs, the area I live in is chock full of them; in some ways you could say that I am one, or at least was one for a period of time in my life. This being said, I would have to assume that at least a 1/3 of these people have chosen to take the long way around, and many of them fail at their goals. The rest however are not in that situation by choice, and there is no reason why they should be tossed aside like yesterdays news. These are real people, and they are inherently locked into a seriously twisted aspect of our culture.

Real people involved in this debate, and the complexities of the whole situation are linked directly to our cultural perspective on this subject. I feel like this should be so duly noted.

Orkeosaurus wrote:An example of the damage that drug prohibition has caused.

No other black market would give those groups the kind of money they currently have; without the drug money they would die out or become much less powerful almost immediately.

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that all drugs should be legalized to cut out any profits the Cartels and gangs in this country make from their sales. If that is your statement, I totaly disagree, with the evidence of what the Opium trade did in China to back me up. Just google opium and what it did to China and you'll get a good idea of what can happen to a country that has hard drugs made legal for the general populace.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wrexasaur wrote:

Relapse wrote:All that being said, I'm afraid that we're going to learn the hard way about what will happen when drugs are legalized. As bad as things are, I think they'll be worse.

I think a political compromise is sorely needed on this subject. I will not and have not said I fully support legalization of all drugs (controlled substances) for a lot of reasons, one of which is very similar to your same perspective. I know plenty of down and outs, the area I live in is chock full of them; in some ways you could say that I am one, or at least was one for a period of time in my life. This being said, I would have to assume that at least a 1/3 of these people have chosen to take the long way around, and many of them fail at their goals. The rest however are not in that situation by choice, and there is no reason why they should be tossed aside like yesterdays news. These are real people, and they are inherently locked into a seriously twisted aspect of our culture.

Real people involved in this debate, and the complexities of the whole situation are linked directly to our cultural perspective on this subject. I feel like this should be so duly noted.

I think I agree with a lot of what you say here.

Relapse wrote:If I understand you correctly, you're saying that all drugs should be legalized to cut out any profits the Cartels and gangs in this country make from their sales. If that is your statement, I totaly disagree, with the evidence of what the Opium trade did in China to back me up. Just google opium and what it did to China and you'll get a good idea of what can happen to a country that has hard drugs made legal for the general populace.

I'm aware of the Opium Wars, but I'll use the Prohibition as a counter-example. And a counter-example that has taken place in the country in question, and didn't largely depend on a foreign power instigating it.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Relapse wrote:If I understand you correctly, you're saying that all drugs should be legalized to cut out any profits the Cartels and gangs in this country make from their sales. If that is your statement, I totaly disagree, with the evidence of what the Opium trade did in China to back me up. Just google opium and what it did to China and you'll get a good idea of what can happen to a country that has hard drugs made legal for the general populace.

I'm aware of the Opium Wars, but I'll use the Prohibition as a counter-example. And a counter-example that has taken place in the country in question, and didn't largely depend on a foreign power instigating it.

I'm not talking about the war itself, though. What I'm looking at is the effect that legalized drugs had on the population of China in that it's use was extremely wide spread and led to addiction for the population.

The other point is that all kinds of drugs were legal in India and the west including the USA until things started to change at the end of the 19th century.

The changes were largely the result of unfounded racist fears, they certainly weren't the result of careful medical and social science research.

Kilkrazy wrote:The other point is that all kinds of drugs were legal in India and the west including the USA until things started to change at the end of the 19th century.

The changes were largely the result of unfounded racist fears, they certainly weren't the result of careful medical and social science research.

That can be taken as a fair point, but consider there has been a long indoctination process glamorizig drugs for the most part in the media coupled with an increase in drug use and easier access. I'm worried enough for my kids after what I've seen for myself in the crackhouses without that crap being all around them legaly.