Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

whatwhat wrote:I would imagine the average American sees America's relationship with Britian somewat similar to that friend who isn't really your friend but just follows you around. It's a relationship which seems much more important to the British than the US.

I think there's a lot of truth in that.

The 'special relationship' has always been more important for the government than the population as a whole.

I think alot of it comes from media as well, folks over here live via American shows on Sky, Virgin etc.

Look at the popularity of the Simpsons, I know thats worldwide as well, but folks see America as closer just because its all over the telly. We have a lot of folks into NFL here, WWE and so on, going by media standards our cultures almost seem merged, but they obviously aren't.

Sport is a bad example, but yes, music and entertainment, very much so.

Well there are alot of differences between the United States and Britian ever since we through those Tories out or tarred and feathered them to the Canadian border. One reason why this is because of fundamental differences in the the development of our country and England. After Quenn Elizabeth's reign the English government launched a campaign to persecute dissent in the Anglican church. They had also tried colonizing America under a corporate profit scheme after witnessing Spain's success in the New World. Of course these settlements were failures because people did not realize how harsh the America wilderness was and were more concerned about finding gold then surviving the winter. Luckily, the Puritians, Seperatists, and Quakers made excellent colonizers because they wanted to build a new society rather than seek profits. This desire made them ready for winter but even then these dissenters almost didnt make it. So fundamentally America is founded on dissent, especially against the government. When our forefathers made the Constitution (we use a big C in America when talking about it, the sole living document which is the eternal king and queen of our land, they did it because they all believed mankind was flawed by sin and were naturally greedy and self serving. Under that premise it would be impossible for a government to govern for the interest of the people, so the Consitution protects us from the government and garuntees us certain rights; like the right to bear arms.

I'm from Texas and I cant understand Brits' adversion to guns and willingness to be controlled by there government. I guess when everything centers around cake and tea that can happen. In the United States most of us drink coffee and its been that way since our last Tea Party in Boston. The reason why we think guns are important is because the only time we had an oppressive government try to bs us with the line that they were doing so for our own good we kicked them out and even when that government existed in the American colonies it went only as far as the custom house. Also, our frontiers only closed about 110 years ago and we still had bandits running across the U.S. and running off to Mexico. Americans dont have an obsession with guns, however, we do believe that we have the right to defend our home's from invaders both foreign in domestic. So this ranges from thiefs, murders, rapists, and an oppressive government. Waiting to be the victim and grumbling later is not the way Americans tend to do things.

marxlives wrote:I cant understand Brits' willingness to be controlled by there government.

What?

marxlives wrote:Well there are alot of differences between the United States and Britian ever since we through those Tories out or tarred and feathered them to the Canadian border. One reason why this is because of fundamental differences in the the development of our country and England. After Quenn Elizabeth's reign the English government launched a campaign to persecute dissent in the Anglican church. They had also tried colonizing America under a corporate profit scheme after witnessing Spain's success in the New World. Of course these settlements were failures because people did not realize how harsh the America wilderness was and were more concerned about finding gold then surviving the winter. Luckily, the Puritians, Seperatists, and Quakers made excellent colonizers because they wanted to build a new society rather than seek profits. This desire made them ready for winter but even then these dissenters almost didnt make it. So fundamentally America is founded on dissent, especially against the government. When our forefathers made the Constitution (we use a big C in America when talking about it, the sole living document which is the eternal king and queen of our land, they did it because they all believed mankind was flawed by sin and were naturally greedy and self serving. Under that premise it would be impossible for a government to govern for the interest of the people, so the Consitution protects us from the government and garuntees us certain rights; like the right to bear arms.

I'm from Texas and I cant understand Brits' adversion to guns and willingness to be controlled by there government. I guess when everything centers around cake and tea that can happen. In the United States most of us drink coffee and its been that way since our last Tea Party in Boston. The reason why we think guns are important is because the only time we had an oppressive government try to bs us with the line that they were doing so for our own good we kicked them out and even when that government existed in the American colonies it went only as far as the custom house. Also, our frontiers only closed about 110 years ago and we still had bandits running across the U.S. and running off to Mexico. Americans dont have an obsession with guns, however, we do believe that we have the right to defend our home's from invaders both foreign in domestic. So this ranges from thiefs, murders, rapists, and an oppressive government. Waiting to be the victim and grumbling later is not the way Americans tend to do things.

I find it humorous that you think our border is closed.

But yes, the A PORTION of the US started as part of Britain. Most of it started as an evil oppressed colony or former colony of somewhere else-Spain, France, Mexico, Russia. Most of the people who came here were not English, so there are similarities but there are big differences as well. Plus the US continues to change. We now have 20mm illegal aliens from Mexico and Latin America here. Some estimates are that 1-3 of the population of Mexico now live here. I am not stating this is bad (chips and Selma Hayak for Maximum Awesome. It just means we're shifting further and further away from Britain on the culture front.

Look at the mutts. I have no comrades who actually descended from the English except someone who's, well English. Again nothing wrong with thats, its just there's a pretty diverse crew over here now.

WW2 and imo more importantly the Cold War really cemented US/GB relations but as mentioned earlier there's a ton of other factors like colonial history and sharing a common language. From Nazis to Commies to Terrorists; we've been a relatively strong military team (NATO ftw). Our economies are also linked together but imo just about every large economic player is strongly linked to America. Society-wise I'd imagine most Americans would view GB as a scary Big Brother, socialist kind of place with a little lower standard of living and in some respects it'd be true especially from all the idiots calling the current administration Nazis. Americans would have a big problem with GB's taxes, healthcare, camera infrastructure, paying an arm and leg at the gas pump which us Americans already think we do; just like some Brits would have a problem with facets of American society.

However the US has a lot of similar relations with all sorts of countries and from personal experience South Korea is definitely one of them. We provide military support for eachother whether its Vietnam or Iraq. Thats not to say there isn't some opposition to this as evident in the numerous Korean protests at international bases stationed there but for the most part the relations are great.

Militarily, politically, and economically the US of A has strong relations with just about every major player in the world today since we helped shape and sustain a lot of economies and continues to do so.

whatwhat wrote:

marxlives wrote:I cant understand Brits' willingness to be controlled by there government.

What?

I think you will find we are more than able to stand up to our government if we want to. Take a look at the last hundred years and you will find plenty of protests and demonstrations. Quite alot of them have been very violent as well.

Oh I also think we're all united in our fear and loathing of haggis. Except Grotsnik but he's special...

The idea that American culture was primarily British has been false for many decades.
The acquisition of Louisiana, New Mexico and Texas introduced other European elements, and during the mid-19th century there was tons of immigration from Europe due to the Irish Potato Famine and the political troubles of 1848.

More Brits also emigrated to the US and still do, of course, and the common language has always allowed for a greater amount of cultural interchange in both directions than between say the US and Japan.

Look at British screenwriters and actors in Hollywood from the early days, for example.

I think also some of Britain has moved more towards continental European culture.

Yeh I used to have a relationship with a girl in berlin, I could swear I felt more at home over there than when I went to vist a friend in florida last year despite the fact they spoke a different language. Although to be fair, in both cases I noticed very different breakfast preferences to our own.

Eh, as a history Major I'm one of the few Americans who remembers we're supposed to hate the British and love the French...

A fact I remind the lone brit in our gaming group of frequently.

You gotta remember just how damn big America is, we have enough divisions and separate cultures that it would be impossible to sum up how we as a nation feel about another nation.

I promise you S. Californian's have a different opinion than N. Californians, who feel totally different than Mid-westerners...and on and on and on

I think Wolfstan was originally refering to the relationship between the US and British governments. This culture talk is just a split off.

whatwhat wrote:Yeh I used to have a relationship with a girl in berlin, I could swear I felt more at home over there than when I went to vist a friend in florida last year despite the fact they spoke a different language. Although to be fair, in both cases I noticed very different breakfast preferences to our own.

The language does make it easy for us lazy Brits There is something about the European way of life that appeals to us, it's just the language that stops us making the most of it. When you think of our past it's no wonder we feel at home, being that we are a mongrel breed of Celt, Saxon, Roman, French/Norman, Norse. In fact there was a report based on DNA tests not long ago that shows the Celts of this fair isle are descended from a fishing region in Spain.

I've been to quite a few places in Euorpe over the years and I have enjoyed my time there... apart from Venice (it was a bank holiday and was heaving & Bari in Italy). Lanzarote is nice in the evening, sitting near beach having some Sangria and no drunks anyway

Emperors Faithful wrote:America on the other hand is the one who took drugs, got laid, got pregnant, and moved out.

And ended up becoming *extremely* successful thanks to a lot of hard work.

Don't forget the oil and slaves part.

Lets not forgot the British Empire *cough* Ruled half the world*cough*

whatwhat wrote:Don't forget the oil and slaves part.

Now now, Britain had a thriving opium trade going on in China at the same time, if we're bringing historical skeletons out of the closet.

I grew up being taught that if it wasn't for Britain standing strong against Hitler, we'd all be in a world of crap right now. It's an idea I still subscribe to
and I know it influences a lot of people if they sit back and think about it for a moment. It's a big debt we all owe to Britain on that one.

I wasn't taught that. I was taught, correctly, that Texas saved the world, thrice

*Germany /Japan
*Germany
*Santa Anna

whatwhat wrote:I think Wolfstan was originally refering to the relationship between the US and British governments. This culture talk is just a split off.

Culture dictates who rules in Democratically elected government....

Honestly I don't think most Americans care about the relationship. To most U.S. Citizens the UK is a minor trading partner, and is useful in the UN security counsel and in NATO as they have similar world views when it comes to voting kinda like that Cousin that moved to NY and is doing well but you never get to see.

I'd be upset if we stopped getting whiskey and beer from the UK. But that's about the extent of it.

Now at the academic level, and the Secretary of State level, its a very important relationship, which could provide many many walls of text worth of information. (Political Science grad here) Especially given the UK's recent influx of Muslim and Polish immigrants and its effect on their local/national politics.

Actually our Muslims are mostly from Pakistan and Bangladesh and they came over in the 50s and 60s.

gorgon wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:America on the other hand is the one who took drugs, got laid, got pregnant, and moved out.

And ended up becoming *extremely* successful thanks to a lot of hard work.

whatwhat wrote:Don't forget the oil and slaves part.

That's why she got pregnant. So the kid could do all the work. (child labour anyone?)

Lord-Loss wrote:Lets not forgot the British Empire *cough* Ruled half the world*cough*

Actually, although Britain dallied in slavery for some time, we cannot forget that they are the ones who abolished it. And, contrary to popular beleif, it was still a profitable a business. How long did it take for America? Another 100 years behind the rest of the world?
(kudos to William Wilberforce, the Ghandi/Mother Teresa/Space Jesus of British Polotics)

The US and UK share one thing.

English.

And even that is a very strenuous link, our cultures are so close but a million miles apart. Our identities, moralities, political ideals, all radically polar.

On a very deeper level, we are not comparable.

The special relationship is still important to us, we just wish Britain would be more like us. It sounds arrogant and probably is, but never forget that US History, especially once edited for public high schools, is basically a litany of how awesome the US is. A good history text reads like a 40k codex: lists of heros and victories and all the amazing things we've done. Defeats are included only to emphasize who we triumphed in the end. The messed up part is that it's not exactly a totally false view of history.

Anyway, the special relationship is best explained through the classic american story: the high school drama. Now, I know British schools are very different, but I'm sure you've all seen enough TV to make sense of the cast and characters.

The US is the coolest, richest kid in the school. He's also the best athlete, the quarterback of the football team (or best Bowler/striker). Now, unlike a lot of schools, this school draws from a very diverse neighborhood. In fact, only a fairly small pocket of students are upper class, most are poorer. The US naturally hangs out mostly with the other rich kids, but slums it now and then with the poorer types.

The UK is an old friend of the US, but they've gone seperate ways. They don't hang out all the time,in fact it seems that the UK prefers to hang out with their new friends in Commonwealth club or even the EU, but the fact remains that they still really respect each other and have each others' backs. Part of what makes the relationship challenging is the way that the power has shifted: once the UK was the big dog, and ruled the school, but the US got a big late growth spurt and Dad got a big raise, while the UK suffered some lean times. They still share a lot of common interests in movies and music, and while the US sometimes takes the UK for granted, it also wished the UK would hang out more with it and go to the really cool parties and stuff that the US throws.

Japan is a neuveu riche out of towner that came in strong, picked a lot of fights, and pissed everybody off. The US beat the crap of him, but now they're really good friends. While the rest of the school still hates Japan, and the US and Japan have very different interests, as the two largest highly deregulated capitilist countries, they have a lot in common so stick together.

Aussie and NZ are two fun guys that are happy to hang out and have a good time. They want everybody to get along, and naturally have a lot more in common with the UK than the US. When they're all together, it's a good time, but there's a bit of tension as the UK knows that Aussie and NZ have tighter affiliations with the US with regards to fighting. Part of it is the inability of the UK to really help defend them, part of it is simply geography, but when another gang steps up in on Pacific Street, they look to the US to fight 'em off.

Canada wants to be friends with everybody, and generally does. They live next door to the US and grew up together, and while they've had their tensions in the past they go back a long way and know they won't really have a problem. The US gets annoyed because it wishes canada would help it a little more, while Canada sees the US as a bit of a bully. Of course, the US tries to point out that as it's had as it's best two friends the toughest kid in school at all times, it has an overly inflated sense of it's own security and importance.

The US is friends with all of these, but since it knows that it has Japan, Aussie and NZ, and Canada more or less locked up as solid allies for various reasons, it's goal is to keep the UK from joining the European Club, which would give that club enough social status to start setting more trends around the school.

Nice explanation Polonaius, it made me laugh when you said the US is basically the coolest kid in school.

Polonius wrote:Stuff.

That was awesome . You, Sir, win the Interwebz.

Not a bad summary, pretty accurate actually, lol.

I think you shouldn't forget the German kid who had a mental, psycotic rampage but after he was taken to a psyciatrist he calmed down.
China's still a bit pissed off at America only beating up Japan when they wanted to, instead of when China was getting beaten up.
Russia was 'the other tough kid' but he fell in with the wrong crowd, made some bad bets, and had to skip town for a while. He's back in bussiness though. (Mabye he's the older kid who hangs outside the school and sells drugs?)

So who's the hot girl that's kind of bitchy that the US is dating? China?

Emperors Faithful wrote: (Mabye he's the older kid who hangs outside the school and sells drugs?)

Na, If drugs is communists then only upto 1924, which was when Lenin was alive and in command, he wanted to spread Communist to other countries, Stalin didnt.

So he can be the drugged up kid, who wont share the drugs.

@Lord-Loss: And recently went through a withdrawal stage?

@avantgarde: I would say that it's actually Japan, (as in they pretended to hate each other, but they actually like each other) but USA is cheating on her with Mexico.