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kirsanth wrote:The Hive Tyrant is not an IC.

The Hive Tyrant can take a retinue. Codex: Tyranids Page 35.

This is the heart of the problem, exactly.

nosferatu1001 wrote:It still doesnt give up 2KP, as the reasoning given for this is you have something reverting to an IC. The HT cannot do this...

Read page 91. Nowhere does it say that a character who reverts to an independent character is a separate kill point. The only argument against the hive tyrant and tyrant guard being two separate kill points is that the tyrant guard are not a retinue, but the tyranid codex specifically labels them as such. However, the rule book specifically defines retinues as containing an IC, which the HT/tyrant guard do not. The codex is in direct confrontation with the rulebook. Is this a question of codex trumps rulebook? I think it's not, as it's obviously simply an out dated book. The thing I don't get is how everyone is so very sure to their answer to this question. I would 4+ it.

Specfic > general

Generally, retinues require an IC.

Specifically, the Tyrant Guard does not.

A retinue is worth a point seperate from their IC, not their unit.

Nothing to 4+

As for outdated book? An older codex had the Tyrant as an IC, iirc. (TMC granted)

shrug

Actually the Platoon Commander is classified as a junior officer (C: IG pg 36),

Page 36 defines "Junior Officer" as a special rule, not a unit, a unit type, or a model within a unit.

The Company/Platoon commander is still not an IC and his squad is still not a retinue.

-GK

kirsanth wrote:Specfic > general

Generally, retinues require an IC.

Specifically, the Tyrant Guard does not.

A retinue is worth a point seperate from their IC, not their unit.

Nothing to 4+

As for outdated book? An older codex had the Tyrant as an IC, iirc. (TMC granted)

shrug

Pg. 91 makes no mention of ICs.

Yes Kp ask that you have a character and a retinue ... Trouble is that all though we have a retinue we don't have anything definable as a character. The tyrant is not an IC or an upgrade character and these are the only type of character mention in BGB.

whocares wrote:

Tri wrote:

whocares wrote:Better question: how many kill points are a hive tyrant and his accompanying tyrant guard worth? The guard are a retinue of sorts, but the tyrant is not and does not become an independent character.

Only 1Kpt because he is not an IC. Till its FAQ (or better) otherwise.

Are you so sure? Even though the tyrant guard are specifically classified as retinue and on pg. 91 of the rulebook under kill points it never even uses the word independent?

Pg. 91:

"If a character has a retinue, the character and his unit are worth 1 kill point each."

Now this raises the question, how exactly is character defined? It never says "independent character." And how is retinue defined? Either way, tyrant guard are clearly labeled "retinue" in the tyranid codex, so there's no question about them.

Just food for thought.

One KP.
Retinue is defined in the IC Joining and Leaving Units section, page 48. So we have a definiton, and by implication (ie it's location), we can say that it applies only to ICs.
Otherwise, if it applies to ANY character (which includes upgrade characters, per the character definiton on page 47), then we would have to say that every vet sgt etc out there was worth a separate KP. Are they not in a unit that they cannot leave during the game (ie definition of retinue)? Somehow, I don't think anyone agrees with this, so the Tyrant has to be given a pass as well.

Sorry but I'm gonna say 2 kp. If the tyrant doesn't take a retinue he is worth 1 kp. Add the separate unit (retinue of guard) and that's another kp.

I agree it's a sticky issue, but I think it's due to the fact that the codex is outdated more than anything. I guess just making sure that it's clear one way or the other with your gaming group is the best solution.

The Hive Tyrant counts as an upgrade character according to the Tyranid FAQ, and page 91 of the rulebook says 'If a character has a retinue, the character and his unit are worth 1 kill point each.'

I don't see any way to destroy both the tyrant guard and the tyrant without giving up two kill points. If the tyrant somehow dies first, it's died while counting as a character, and gives up a kill point, leaving the retinue to give up its own kill point if destroyed later. If the retinue gets destroyed first, it gives up a kill point and then the tyrant reverts to being a single model unit, so the tyrant gives up a kill point if it's destroyed later.

solkan, so are you saying that any upgrade character who is in a "unit that they cannot leave during the game" (rulebook definition of 'retinue') is worth a separate KP from the unit? Or are you only applying it to the Tyrant?

Seems to me it has to be all or nothing. So if all upgrade characters, then that means that every Marine Sgt, every Eldar Warlock in a guardian squad, etc etc etc, are all worth separate KP. After all, they ALL meet the same criteria that you are using for the Tyrant. They are an upgrade character and the are with a 'retinue', ie a unit they cannot leave during the game.
If only the Tyrant, then you're applying the rule unfairly to one army and not to all armies.

Except their codex's do not define the unit as a retinue... the nid one does... therefore its a retinue + something else.. meaning its 2 KP's. If the marine sergeant could be bought singularly and then a retinue of tactical marines could be added then I would agree that it is 2 KP's as well.
The sergeant is a bad example seeing as you don't "upgrade" to get him.. he's standard so...

Lukus83 wrote:Add the separate unit (retinue of guard) and that's another kp.

Ummm. No?
"Add the separate unit"? Tyrant Guard are not, and cannot be, a seperate unit - any more than a SM sergeant is joined by a "separate unit" of SMs.

shrug

This is a very interesting thread. I never knew that about biovores.

Twalks wrote:Except their codex's do not define the unit as a retinue... the nid one does... therefore its a retinue + something else.. meaning its 2 KP's. If the marine sergeant could be bought singularly and then a retinue of tactical marines could be added then I would agree that it is 2 KP's.

rules for retinues are that the model counts as an upgrade character till every one is dead then they become an IC .... ok he's going to join the safety of the genestealers since he is now an IC character

That seems to be the way it is written. Since the codex states they are a retinue, but the rules for retinues would infer that the Hive Tyrant becomes an IC once the guard have been killed. Either way you play it the game is broken. On one side it is obviously a retinue. On the other it is obviously not an IC.
RAI I believe they would be worth 2 KP's like every other retinue in the game and not become an IC.

RAW it is a retinue for a MC.

The section quoted about retinues is entitled "Independent Characters Joining & Leaving Units" so it will, quite obviously state that the character in question reverts to being an IC - as that section is talking about ICs.

At best one can argue that the rules themselves (in that section) do not apply, but this is largely irrelevant as the Tyrant Guard have rules for denying the opponent the ability to target the Tyrant seperately as a MC.

This would still be one KP, though, as it is one unit.

The rules for retinues are witihn the IC section: unless you have an IC you do not have permission to even read those rules: they are not relevant to you.

Not an IC, cannot be a retinue (as it can never "return" to being an IC)

Specific > General.

Codex: Tyranids says a Hive Tyrant can have a retinue.

Retinues are not defined anywhere else in the rulebook.. therefore I would presume that there are no rules written for this situation... Looking at the rules for killpoints since there is no retinue + character I would have to assume it is 1 KP then.

kirsanth wrote:Specific > General.

Codex: Tyranids says a Hive Tyrant can have a retinue.

good now where does it say the Tyrant is a character? Doesn't. He is nether an IC or an upgrade character ... he is a single model that can be joined by a retinue.

Retinues are a KP. A MC is a kill point. You can take a Hive Tyrant without a guard. Once the guard is gone the Hive Tyrant reverts back to a MC.

Two KPs. One for the MC and 1 for the retinue.

A Tau Shas'Ui upgrade character cannot be taken on its own. Therefore the Firewarrior unit + the Shas'Ui upgrade Character = 1 Unit.

A Sargeant cannot be taken without taking a Squad. See rules above to Tau Firewarriors.

These upgrade characters are part of the squad. They are not a retinue taken by the upgrade character. They are an upgrade to the squad.

Twalks wrote:Except their codex's do not define the unit as a retinue... the nid one does... therefore its a retinue + something else.. meaning its 2 KP's. If the marine sergeant could be bought singularly and then a retinue of tactical marines could be added then I would agree that it is 2 KP's as well.
The sergeant is a bad example seeing as you don't "upgrade" to get him.. he's standard so...

Codex doesn't have to, the main rulebook does it. By solkan's argument, a unit with an upgrade character in it is indeed a character with a retinue (regardless of whether they are named retinue, bodyguard, or something else), per the main rulebook definition of retinue, ie a unit that the "character" cannot leave during the game. So either ALL "upgrade" characters fall under this rule or none of them do (and anyways, the only reason we can tag the Tyrant as an 'upgrade' character is due to a poorly written FAQ). As for the sgt. So what if he comes with the squad automatically? Means nothing. Several of the real retinues in the game are automatic as well. Inquisitor Lords have a mandatory retinue. So if we follow what you're saying about the sgt, the Inq Lord no longer counts because he has to take the retinue squad? I disagree.

Bottom line. The retinue rules are meant to apply to ICs and ICs only, as clearly shown by where they are in the rulebook. Otherwise, we have to say that every single upgrade character in the game that comes with a unit it cannot leave (ie rulebook definition of retinue) is also worth a separate KP. And for some reason, all the non-Nid players cry (a lot!) whenever the shoe is on the other foot.

rogueeyes wrote:Retinues are a KP. A MC is a kill point. You can take a Hive Tyrant without a guard. Once the guard is gone the Hive Tyrant reverts back to a MC.

Two KPs. One for the MC and 1 for the retinue.

A Tau Shas'Ui upgrade character cannot be taken on its own. Therefore the Firewarrior unit + the Shas'Ui upgrade Character = 1 Unit.

A Sargeant cannot be taken without taking a Squad. See rules above to Tau Firewarriors.

These upgrade characters are part of the squad. They are not a retinue taken by the upgrade character. They are an upgrade to the squad.

Reverts to MC?
It never loses MC status - it simply cannot be targeted as such, as per Shieldwall.

Tyrant Guard can never be taken alone, they must be purchased as a retinue for the HT. Not sure how that helps, but I am not sure where some of those examples came from (or why they appeared).

MC do not, inherently give a KP. If there is a unit of MCs they are worth 1 KP. In fairness I am not certain this can be done, outside of apoc, currently. A MC is worth a kill point is only true because they are a unit - generally speaking.
In this case, it is a MC with a retinue - which is a unit.

shrug

Except nowhere in the book does it state that a tactical squad is a retinue. If it did I would agree with you but it doesn't so I don't

Twalks wrote:Except nowhere in the book does it state that a tactical squad is a retinue. If it did I would agree with you but it doesn't so I don't

No, it states it in the rulebook.

I mis-stated reverting to MC status. The MC does not work like an upgraded character which were the examples I gave. An upgraded character must be taken as an upgrade to a unit that you have. The Guards are not an upgrade - they are a retinue and thus are a KP. If you kill off an upgrade character it is not a KP - only the unit is. This is because a unit takes an upgrade character while for the Hive Tyrant this is the other way around.

Where does it state that a retinue is worth a KP?

Editing to add:
I see page 48 and 91, but it says the character and his unit.

Also, I have generally played that they are worth 2, but I fail to see the rules backing it. There is no Character to be worth a kill point, and multiple MCs can be a unit as per the rules (page 4 main rules).

So I play 2 in friendly situations in the same vein that I use Leaping only for being able to CCwithin 3" instead of 2" - and not granting 12" assault range.

To those of you who state that specific > general, I would say that you need to look at your stance because you are basically arguing that codex > BRB, so just be a little careful there (I am not saying that you are wrong). I do understand that most of the time, codex does overrule the BRB with reguards to rules. The reason I state this is because the BRB is pretty specific when it states that a retinue must have a character that becomes an IC when the other members are killed off. In reality, you are looking at specific (codex) != specific (BRB). There are specific instances when the BRB overrules the codex such as orks leadership never going above 10 due to mob rules.

Just my 2 cents, take it for what it is worth. Personally I would argue that they are 1 kill point, but would conceed to my opponent/TO should it become a contentious point.

Twalks wrote:Except nowhere in the book does it state that a tactical squad is a retinue. If it did I would agree with you but it doesn't so I don't

Yes, it does, if you assume that an upgrade character can have a retinue. Is it a unit that the (upgrade) character cannot leave? If your answer is yes, then it fits the rulebook definition of "retinue". It doesn't have to be called a retinue. It doesn't have to be called a bodyguard. It doesn't have to be a unit that is bought separately from the character. All that is required, per the main rulebook definition of retinue (as you have now been told several times) is that it be a unit that the charactr cannot leave during the game. So if you want to claim that an "upgrade character" (ie the Hive Tyrant and it's upgrade character status due to the FAQ) with a retinue is worth two KP, then declare it for all of them. All or nothing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kirsanth wrote:Where does it state that a retinue is worth a KP?

Editing to add:
I see page 48 and 91, but it says the character and his unit.

Ummm, page 91. The line about a character and it's unit, the first half of the line
"IF a character has a retinue, the character and his unit are worth 1 kill point eah."

This topic seems to have opened a can of worms I didn't even know existed...

As far as I can tell, Tyrants and their guard are 1 kp. But perhaps Broodlords and their retinue are 2kps?

I agree that if this rule does apply to the HT then it should start applying to all the marine sgt's out there. It's not like the Tyranids need more KP's then they already will have.

Also, whats this about leaping i hear? it's not supposed to give a 12" assault?

FoolWhip wrote: But perhaps Broodlords and their retinue are 2kps?

No Perhaps about it. The Broodlord is an IC, and he has a Retinue. The HT is NOT an IC.