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It never stops being an MC: read the rules for TG again (they are all deployed as MC, and nothing states the HT loses MC status just cannot be targetted as such)

MC is a unit type, IC is a special type that can be added to MC, Infantry, etc. Being an IC cannot and does not preclude you from being any unit type.

While it states it is a retinue it does not fit the BRB definition of such.

rogueeyes wrote: MC takes the place of IC in this case. When the retinue is killed the MC reverts back to a MC.

By reverting back to MC status I mean it is no longer an upgrade character but is once again the MC and loses the upgrade character status.

So if it is not a character, why is it a KP seperate from its unit?

MC units (or MC in units) are (still) not worth a KP per model.

I'm not saying it loses the MC status. It reverts to only MC status instead of the upgrade Character status. You are correct that IC does not preclude MC. That is flawed in my previous explanation.

ICs are the only thing that can take a retinue by the BGB. Codexes override the BGB. This means that the MC can take a retinue. The Tyranid codex states that it is a retinue. It becomes an character with a retinue by the BGB and the codex. It becomes 2 KP because of the FAQ, the Codex stating retinue and the BGB stating a character with a retinue is 2 KP.

Sergeants cannot take a retinue because they are not IC. They are upgrade characters. Upgrade characters are not IC. Only ICs may have a retinue - in whatever form they are called. This is stated by the BGB. Retinues are under the IC rules. No IC then no retinue - unless the codex specifically states it is a retinue.

A unit can take a retinue if the codex states it can take a retinue. This overrides the BGB. I don't care what you call anything with an upgrade character - it is not a retinue because upgrade characters are included in the BGB. Monstrous Creatures with a retinue are not included in the BGB. in the Tyranid Codex it states that the Tyrant Guard are a retinue. The only thing that defines a retinue is the IC area of the BGB. Specific overrides General. This means the Tyrant Guard takes the Retinue role of an IC.

This does not apply to upgrade characters. Upgrade characters are included under a different section of the BGB. An IC can become an Upgrade Character but an Upgrade Character cannot become an IC.

rogueeyes wrote: It becomes an character with a retinue by the BGB and the codex.

Why? Where is the rule for that?

rogueeyes wrote: The only thing that defines a retinue is the IC area of the BGB. Specific overrides General. This means the Tyrant Guard takes the Retinue role of an IC.

Sure, but that does not mean it becomes one. The most specific rules (that are written in the books) say the MC has a retinue.

kirsanth wrote:

rogueeyes wrote: It becomes an character with a retinue by the BGB and the codex.

Why? Where is the rule for that?

Sorry it states this in the FAQ.

rogueeyes wrote:Sorry it states this in the FAQ.

-Cough-

I'll just leave now

Good to know we all recognize the issue.

^^

We all recognize there is major issues with a lot of codices. For the next few years these will be problems. Even after new codices come out there will still be quite a few issues.

For now we'll leave it at that.

rogueeyes wrote:

1. Hive Tyrant takes the Tyrant Guard
2. Firewarrior Squad takes the Shas'Ui
3. Tactical Squad takes the Sergeant
4. Tau Commander Takes the Bodyguard

In Kill Point Terms
1. 2 KP
2. 1 KP
3. 1 KP
4. 2 KP



So for gameplay purposes, what would the point cost on these units be in a 1500pt game?
(obviously this is all relative, but let's just say your average unit of each of these.)

(Since there is obviously lots of questioning going on here about the language of the rules, I want to see the actual difference in the unit values. This will help me for house rules just to keep things fair.)

Since I am really only familiar with Tyranids at the moment, I will only add to the first field.

1. HT with some upgrades, 2x guard 211pts
2.
3.
4.


-Fool Whip

rogueeyes wrote:We all recognize there is major issues with a lot of codices. For the next few years these will be problems. Even after new codices come out there will still be quite a few issues.

For now we'll leave it at that.

The problem is we still have FAQ's written for the 4th edition with bits tacked on. If you ignore the FAQ since it is badly written you have no problem. Yes its a retinue, no its not a Character. Why? BGB Page 47 Independent characters "Bear in mind that there are other models that only ever fight as units of one model, but are not independent characters" ... 'Model' not character, at worst using the FAQ it counts as a character while the retinue is alive but once they're dead he doesn't ... if he isn't a character any more then only 1kp.

Tri wrote: The problem is we still have FAQ's written for the 4th edition with bits tacked on. If you ignore the FAQ since it is badly written you have no problem. Yes its a retinue no its not a Character. Why? BGB Page 47 Independent characters "Bear in mind that there are other models that only ever fight as units of one model, but are not independent characters" ... 'Model' not character, at worst using the FAQ it counts as a character while the retiune is alive but once they're dead he doesn't ... if he isn't a character any more then only 1kp.

On an unrelated note, I always have a hard time finding that image fast, so I have used your avatar pic for examples a number of times now, Tri.


"What do you mean he has three CC weapons?"

"One sec, let me show you Tri's Avatar."

"Wha. . . !?!?"

kirsanth wrote:
On an unrelated note, I always have a hard time finding that image fast, so I have used your avatar pic for examples a number of times now, Tri.


"What do you mean he has three CC weapons?"

"One sec, let me show you Tri's Avatar."

"Wha. . . !?!?"

Glad you like it ^_^ its also the only picture in my gallery.
You should also thank Gwar! ... it was created in... er, a debate we were having.

I read that . . discussion. It is actually why I use the image as an example.

And thank you! I am saving that now.

You are all very welcome!

Are Tyrant Guard worth a separate KP...wow, I asked this question last year and it seams the arguements haven't changed. Then again, why am I suprised.

I have always played 2 KP due to the poorly worded Tyranid FAQ listed on the GW website :

"Is the Hive Tyrant an independant character? No, so it cannot join other units. The only exception to this, of course, is its retinue of Tyrant Guard. This unit follows the rules for retinues (except that the Hive Tyrant counts as an upgrade character for this unit) until all the guards are destroyed, at which point the HT reverts to the normal rules of MC."

The Annihalation Scenario states "a character and his retinue are worth a KP each"

Of course the rules for retinues are in the IC section...

Its a horribly worded FAQ as it confuses the rules associated with an upgrade character and the legal definition of a retinue giving up a separate KP. Epic Face Palm.

Still, like Kirsanth, I feel it should only be 1 KP but just don't feel like argueing with MEQ players for 2 hours so I give them the benefit ...not like they need it though...and take the 2KP nerf.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I always thought that Retinues were bought for the Character, whereas Uprade Characters are always bought for the unit.

Wyoming, why don't you just ask them if all of their upgrade characters with retinues are also worth two KP?