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Hello Everyone,

I'm currently working out my first tournament list, and I want to check some rules interpretations here...

When counting kill points, you count whole units that have been killed. (or units at end of game which have broken)
With Tyranids, units are defined in "broods"
To take a brood of 3 Zoanthropes, or 3 Lictors, by reading the codex, that would be 2 "units"

Each model in these 2 units have the ability to move independently of the other models in their unit.


As I see it, the RAW on this would be that you would not give up kill points for each single one of these models destroyed, only if all the models in these units were destroyed.
(so 2 units, 2 kill points. not 2 units, 6 kill points)

Am I reading this correctly, or are there more rules about Kill Points that I am unaware of?


Thanks,

-Fool Whip

they are all each seperate killpoints, because they act as seperate units.

just like a dedicated transport and the squad within count as individual killpoints.

Quite the same as the inquisitorial codexes and Death Cult Assassins. Separate units, individual KP.

edit: at least I have seven nightshifts in a row as an excuse ;-)

Each group of models required to stay in coherency is a unit, which means a brood of 3 lictors is 3 units, same with a zoanthrope.

I asked this question somewhere some time ago. They are all separate KP's. On a similar note spore mines are also KP's (which is 1 reason why biovores currently suck).

They are all seperate Kill Points. Anything that acts as a seperate unit is a kill point. So 3 Zoanthropes are 3 KP. A Marine Squad and Rhino are 2 KP etc etc.

So bye the same logic a 10 man Tactical Split into 2 5's each is a KP right?

Anarchyman99 wrote:So bye the same logic a 10 man Tactical Split into 2 5's each is a KP right?

Yes, that is correct. A 10 Man Squad with a Razorback Split into Combat Squads is 3 KP.

Wow, that really makes you think.

Also working the other way an IG platoon would normally be 3KP+ (command squad + 2 infantry squads) but using combined infantry squads you can get this down to 2+

Anarchyman99 wrote:Wow, that really makes you think.

Right. This is one of the main advantages of the Combat Squads rule. If you’re playing a KP scenario, you can keep your squads consolidated to minimize KPs. If you’re playing an objective mission, you can split them up to maximize Scoring Units.

Oh wow. Thanks Guys.

On a side note: The spore mines Biovores Shoot count as kill points? I thought that was just spore mines you "deep striked"

FoolWhip wrote:Oh wow. Thanks Guys.

On a side note: The spore mines Biovores Shoot count as kill points? I thought that was just spore mines you "deep striked"

Nope. The ones they fire count as KP, because you place the Model (which becomes a Separate Unit) and then see if it explodes or not.

That is RaW of course. RaP it doesn't come up because no-one uses Biovores anyway (They use 3 Zoanthropes and 2 Carnifexes )

Nope, they are kill points as well... Although I thought I read somewhere that if they directly hit something the immediately detonated and thus they are not placed on the table. I cannot verify this at the moment so dont take it as RAW or RAI.

On a side note, Tri, your comment about IG infantry platoons being worth 2 points if you blob up your guys is haunted by the FAQ of the BRB that stats that command squads are 2 kill points. One for the commander and one for the guardsmen. I know that it should be changed with the new codex, but I had a buddy who brought this up when I was playing a command squad. We got into a heated discussion (prob more my fault) over it. I tried to explain that none of the figures in the squad are ICs or classified as Retinues. I am assuming that this is because the 5th edition FAQ came out before the new edition of the IG codex, but it is still in there. Any idea how to argue this? Should I argue that because it does not say that the squad is a retinue that this would be akin to the sergeant (or other leader of a squad for that matter) having his other figures being a retinue? Just curious how to fight this arguement in an upcomming tournament. I shot an email to GW asking, but I know that one of the tenants of posting on YMDC as that these emails should not be relied on as they can be spoofed. Could I just say "new codicies take precident over old FAQs?" I know with the 'Nids, specifically the broodlord, it actually states when something is a retinue. I am just trying to avoid arguments at a tournement that I would like to be invited back to...

The reason Platoons are 2 KP is because you have the Infantry Squads Blobbed up, but the Platoon Command Squad CANNOT blob with them. Thus, 2 Units, thus 2 KP.

As for the Spore mines, it is put in the FAQ. If they land on target they detonate immediately, thus no model is placed, so no unit is made, so no KP is lost.

I understand that gwar, the point I was bringing up is that in the March 2009 FAQ of the BRB, it states that because the guardsmen count as retinues for the respective commanders (Platoon and Company commanders) the command squads cound as 2 KP. so that would be 2 for the command squad and 1 for the blobbed up squad being 3 KP. As I said, I know the FAQ should be FAQd, but how do I argue this other than to say that nowhere in my codex does it state that the command squad is a retinue?

Ah, I understand now. Well the thing is:
1) FAQ means nothing as it is not errata
2) Its for the old codex, and thus invalid.
3) I find bringing bricks and a Pillowcase helps these kinds of players see reason

zoans, tough as they are, make sense to be seperate killpoints each. 2 wounds each, 2+/6+ T4 is pretty darn survivable. and you really wouldn't want them as a unit anyway, you want to spread their abilities around the field. same with lictors (to a lesser extent)

Thats what I though. I wonder if I can find anyone with an old IG codex (not about to even ask for locations on the internet) locally to use it as a discussion for this issue. I guess the issue is how to argue that it is intended for a previous edition. I will prob argue the point (using SM scouts as an example) that Scouts are a retinue for the Scout Sergeant as it is basically the same thing (basic troops being upgrades for the leader of the unit).

s2ua7 wrote:Thats what I though. I wonder if I can find anyone with an old IG codex (not about to even ask for locations on the internet) locally to use it as a discussion for this issue. I guess the issue is how to argue that it is intended for a previous edition. I will prob argue the point (using SM scouts as an example) that Scouts are a retinue for the Scout Sergeant as it is basically the same thing (basic troops being upgrades for the leader of the unit).

Don't bother with that is he an IC? No ? Then the unit is only worth 1Kpt.

Tri wrote:Don't bother with that is he an IC? No ? Then the unit is only worth 1Kpt.

I agree with Tri. Follow this rule:

"If a character has a retinue, the character and his unit are worth 1 kill point each." BGB p. 91.


The FAQ entry is now obsolete and inapplicable thanks to the new IG Codex, in which Company/Platoon Commanders are NOT independent characters, the Vets/Guardsmen in their units are NOT retinues, and there's no such thing as a "junior officer".


-GK

GiantKiller wrote:

The FAQ entry is now obsolete and inapplicable thanks to the new IG Codex, in which Company/Platoon Commanders are NOT independent characters, the Vets/Guardsmen in their units are NOT retinues, and there's no such thing as a "junior officer".

-GK

Actually the Platoon Commander is classified as a junior officer (C: IG pg 36), although I argued stating that they are no longer ICs so that they do not count as a retinue. To be honest, the person I was having the discussion with stated that he hoped that they counted as one kill point because he was going to be building an IG army, so I dont think that it is going to be an issue to ignore that part of the FAQ, I'm more worried about how a TO will take that FAQ into account.

Better question: how many kill points are a hive tyrant and his accompanying tyrant guard worth? The guard are a retinue of sorts, but the tyrant is not and does not become an independent character.

whocares wrote:Better question: how many kill points are a hive tyrant and his accompanying tyrant guard worth? The guard are a retinue of sorts, but the tyrant is not and does not become an independent character.

Only 1Kpt because he is not an IC. Till its FAQ (or better) otherwise.

Tri wrote:

whocares wrote:Better question: how many kill points are a hive tyrant and his accompanying tyrant guard worth? The guard are a retinue of sorts, but the tyrant is not and does not become an independent character.

Only 1Kpt because he is not an IC. Till its FAQ (or better) otherwise.

Are you so sure? Even though the tyrant guard are specifically classified as retinue and on pg. 91 of the rulebook under kill points it never even uses the word independent?

Pg. 91:

"If a character has a retinue, the character and his unit are worth 1 kill point each."

Now this raises the question, how exactly is character defined? It never says "independent character." And how is retinue defined? Either way, tyrant guard are clearly labeled "retinue" in the tyranid codex, so there's no question about them.

Just food for thought.

I would think the guards would be 1 pt and the HT is 1 pt (thats how I've always done it).

Nids are the WORST for KP objectives. Most players run so much stuff thats IC's that our KP number is outrageous. Not to mention Lictors and Zoans are 1 KP a piece, meaning its effectively 6 KP's if you max em. Most nid lists around 1750 pts have around 10 KP or so, which against things like Cron's is outrageous. I've had many KP games I've lost even tho I almost wiped em out, only because my KP total is so high lol.

Thats probably my one main gripe about nids in general. Orks seem to have the same issue if they run heavy swarm as well :(

Tyranids is an old codex not every thing works as it should. The Hive Tyrant is nether a IC or an upgrade character. If he was an IC that could never join units (... see Necrons) then he would be a character and the rule would force him to give up another KP. Thats why i don't see him as gifting out another KP. Mind you if you do think he gives out an extra KP he will also follow the rest of the rules for retinues and will be come an IC when they die.

Given that the definition of "retinues" is in the IC section you cannot look at that section unless you have an IC in the squad.

Not an IC? Can never be a retinue.

The Hive Tyrant is not an IC.

The Hive Tyrant can take a retinue. Codex: Tyranids Page 35.

It still doesnt give up 2KP, as the reasoning given for this is you have something reverting to an IC. The HT cannot do this...