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Well marines are a much more, chill in the midfield at 12-24 inches and fire away army. Obviously this leaves holes in lists. That's why a lot of people have started using multiple dakka predators and rifleman dreads.

I don't really have any nuggets of wisdom right now. However, I will state that I really like this topic and how refreshing it is to read a topic like this in tactics.

1x str 10klaw on a bike

1x str 9 klaw on a bike

3 x str 9 klaw in a trukk

3 x str 9 klaws on foot

10 lootaz

2 x killa kan with rokkits



Who needs melta weaponry?

When the long ranged AT weapons were put up for Tau you forgot the best anti-tank weapon outside of Apocalypse.

...RAILGUNS...

Who needs melta.

Speaking of "Rifleman Dreds", I kind preferred it when they were called "Mortis Pattern Dreadnoughts". Maybe if we're good the next Dark Angels codex will have full options for the Mortis Pattern, and not just the Autocannons available to regular Space Marines.

Also Cyclone Launchers for Dreadnoughts...

/jack

Rommel in his papers talked about his frustration with his soldiers when they didn't immediately return fire. He believed immediately returning fire was the only response when meeting an enemy.

The same holds true for 40k, where the best way to survive an enemy, is to kill him first.

Diversity in AT is what's called for in good lists.

sourclams wrote:I don't want to derail the OP's thread so I won't go into this enormously, but the reason the CSM codex is full of fail and illustrates the OP's points very well is because you are basically limited to 3 FOC slots for long range AT. If you can't take it on a Heavy, you're either shoe-horning units that aren't meant to perform the ranged AT role (10 CSM with a lascannon) or are forgoing entirely.

I have been trying out chaos lists with 5-man chosen squads and a lascannon. That's 125pts for a combat squad-like lascannons. It infiltrates so if I go first I can still position them to hit the enemy I want on turn 1, but more importantly it adds more units that can shoot tanks at range in the CSM list.

Your analysis is correct. The only thing is that meltaguns are the best anti-tank weapon, but that doesn't mean that you should use it all the time.

It is good to have lascannons and ML's in your lists to balance out this fact and be able to pop light armor from afar. Then you can send in meltagun units to take care of things like Predators and LRD and AV13+ that would be to detrimental to keep around for long.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:1x str 10klaw on a bike

1x str 9 klaw on a bike

3 x str 9 klaw in a trukk

3 x str 9 klaws on foot

10 lootaz

2 x killa kan with rokkits



Who needs melta weaponry?

You have no idea what you are talking about. Orks BIGGEST vice is killing high AV. You have 2 non-assault anti-armor elements and 1 can't even touch AV14. Only FC Nobz (st9) and Warbosses can even PENETRATE the AV14! (Edited for maths stupidity ROFL!)

Now, TAU and Dark Eldar are the ONLY races (Eldar are in there but they have Firedragons so they have NO exuse not to have melta) that can get bye reliably without meltaguns. You don't include Chaos Daemons and Orks because they suffer greatly because they don't have them and have a replacement for them!

This is because Tau has Seeker Missile, Markerlights, and RAILGUNS! Eldar and DE have lances so they get bye very much so fine.

Smurfs probably have one of the best armies to gather Anti-Tank in the form of non-melta only equaled by guard. (other than DE and Eldar lances but we are ignoring lances ATM)

10 man marine squad w/ Razorback w/ TLLC + Lascannon + Meltagun combat-squadded. That is a VERY nice AT unit. Run around with mobile lascannons shots with a lascannon firebase and a meltagun to go along with it. Give the sarg a combi-melta in the razorback and dang!

double AC dreds and AC/HB predators backing that up and you got a lot of firepower!

The nastiest anti-light armor killers have to be Tau though. Between giving their crisis suits missile pods then using markerlights to hit side armor and gain BS, they are just vicious.

EzeKK wrote:Your analysis is correct. The only thing is that meltaguns are the best anti-tank weapon, but that doesn't mean that you should use it all the time.


1x str 9 klaw on a bike

3 x str 9 klaw in a trukk

3 x str 9 klaws on foot

10 lootaz

2 x killa kan with rokkits



Who needs melta weaponry?

You have no idea what you are talking about. Orks BIGGEST vice is killing high AV. You have 2 non-assault anti-armor elements and 1 can't even touch AV14. Only the ST10 warboss can even PENETRATE the AV14!

Now, TAU and Dark Eldar are the ONLY races (Eldar are in there but they have Firedragons so they have NO exuse not to have melta) that can get bye reliably without meltaguns. You don't include Chaos Daemons and Orks because they suffer greatly because they don't have them and have a replacement for them!

This is because Tau has Seeker Missile, Markerlights, and RAILGUNS! Eldar and DE have lances so they get bye very much so fine.

Smurfs probably have one of the best armies to gather Anti-Tank in the form of non-melta only equaled by guard. (other than DE and Eldar lances but we are ignoring lances ATM)

10 man marine squad w/ Razorback w/ TLLC + Lascannon + Meltagun combat-squadded. That is a VERY nice AT unit. Run around with mobile lascannons shots with a lascannon firebase and a meltagun to go along with it. Give the sarg a combi-melta in the razorback and dang!

double AC dreds and AC/HB predators backing that up and you got a lot of firepower!

The nastiest anti-light armor killers have to be Tau though. Between giving their crisis suits missile pods then using markerlights to hit side armor and gain BS, they are just vicious.

I wouldn't say biggest vice. I'd say susceptibility to LD checks on units which can't get big enough to mob up is the bigest vice. I lose more games based on failing critical LD checks than I do based on any other factor (with the possible exception of highly mobile forces getting the charge against my boyz which is my fault as a bad player rather than the lists fault).

Eh? Deffkoptas? Everything else should be 10+ or in transports.

sourclams wrote:

I wouldn't say biggest vice. I'd say susceptibility to LD checks on units which can't get big enough to mob up is the bigest vice. I lose more games based on failing critical LD checks than I do based on any other factor (with the possible exception of highly mobile forces getting the charge against my boyz which is my fault as a bad player rather than the lists fault).

Eh? Deffkoptas? Everything else should be 10+ or in transports.

Deffkoptaz, lootaz, nobz, bikez, trukk boyz, grotz, whittled down boyz mobz

I don't run koptaz but I always run bikes and it's pretty much 50/50 as to whether they will hold for an entire game against everything and piss of my opponents immensely or go run screaming at the first sound a lasgun powering up.

lootaz start out at 10+ and require almost no return firepower to send them running away.

Trukk boyz and nobz do indeed hang around in transports but eventually they have to get out and assault something at which point it really sucks to have your 250pt unit of death wiped out due to a sweeping advance and a few jammy rolls.

And being 10+ doesn't stop my 20 strong grot mob being tank shocked off an objective and failing an ld7 roll, twice.

What's a landraider going to do? Fire hurricane bolters at me? Please I have boys to spare. Disgorge an assault unit, well that is where positional tactics comes into play. It might win you the game, it might not. Anything that isn't a landraider I can kill in combat with p-klaws or ignore based on what I deem to be the best option.

Leadership is a much bigger problem for me than tanks.

Edit: BLEH!~ I need to read the thread more closely...

Tau have fusion blasters, those are melta weapons IIRC. *checking back of the rulebook*

Yup! Tau do to have meltaguns, they also have a lascannonish gun (only better @S10) So stop saying they don't.

All the other books written back in 4th when glancing (apparently) had a different damage chart seem to have been balanced specifically for glancing shots being better. (Like the Necron warrior guns, that always glance on a 6....but in this edition, glancing them to death isn't a good idea anymore, this is why lascannons and nobs toting power Klaws aren't as awesome against armor as they used to be.)

The interesting thing in 5th edition is that you can glance vehicles to death: enough Damage results (Weapon Destroyed and Immobilized) and they convert to Destroyed (Wrecked).

I like meltaguns. I really do. Normal CSM squads (or plague marines) in rhinos with 2 meltas is great. Move up 12", then from then on you have a mobile 2 AP1 shots a turn (which makes LR babies cry). But I cannot agree more that its the be all end all in anti tank.

For one you can get meltabombs, which I feel are invaluable in squads of khorne zerkers and things in some games (like Tau or IG who are tank heavy). Lascannons, of course, for its high strength. Missile launcher are cheap in things like SM's, tho for CSM I shy away. Sutocannons are insanely good against most armys as tyheres only a few AV 14 vehicles running around (not to mention they own nids). The list goes on!

I could not agree more tho

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:I don't run koptaz but I always run bikes and it's pretty much 50/50 as to whether they will hold for an entire game against everything and piss of my opponents immensely or go run screaming at the first sound a lasgun powering up.

lootaz start out at 10+ and require almost no return firepower to send them running away.

Trukk boyz and nobz do indeed hang around in transports but eventually they have to get out and assault something at which point it really sucks to have your 250pt unit of death wiped out due to a sweeping advance and a few jammy rolls.

And being 10+ doesn't stop my 20 strong grot mob being tank shocked off an objective and failing an ld7 roll, twice.

What's a landraider going to do? Fire hurricane bolters at me? Please I have boys to spare. Disgorge an assault unit, well that is where positional tactics comes into play. It might win you the game, it might not. Anything that isn't a landraider I can kill in combat with p-klaws or ignore based on what I deem to be the best option.

Leadership is a much bigger problem for me than tanks.

I saw this and I Lol_ed. Ezekk is right, you have no idea what you are talking about.

You definitely do not know how to use orks, do you?
Biker Squads should always have access to bosspoles and therefore the chances of running away is definitely not 50/50.

Lootas may have a problem with this, but problem can be avoided by smart deployment, forcing your opponent to choose their target more carefully.

Boyz mob are most resistant to Ld checks, contrary to what you thought otherwise. At 11-30, they are fearless. At 8-10, you use the mob rule leadership, and have access to reroll. At 1-7, you use Ld of 7 and have access to reroll.

As for your last pt - You haven't played against a Landraider spam list, have you?

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:Leadership is a much bigger problem for me than tanks.

If this is what you think, you may want to start getting some advice on how to play orks.


Btw, I am with the TS on his argument. The effectiveness of Meltas should not be overstated.

Davicus wrote:

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:I don't run koptaz but I always run bikes and it's pretty much 50/50 as to whether they will hold for an entire game against everything and piss of my opponents immensely or go run screaming at the first sound a lasgun powering up.

lootaz start out at 10+ and require almost no return firepower to send them running away.

Trukk boyz and nobz do indeed hang around in transports but eventually they have to get out and assault something at which point it really sucks to have your 250pt unit of death wiped out due to a sweeping advance and a few jammy rolls.

And being 10+ doesn't stop my 20 strong grot mob being tank shocked off an objective and failing an ld7 roll, twice.

What's a landraider going to do? Fire hurricane bolters at me? Please I have boys to spare. Disgorge an assault unit, well that is where positional tactics comes into play. It might win you the game, it might not. Anything that isn't a landraider I can kill in combat with p-klaws or ignore based on what I deem to be the best option.

Leadership is a much bigger problem for me than tanks.

I saw this and I Lol_ed. Ezekk is right, you have no idea what you are talking about.

You definitely do not know how to use orks, do you?
Biker Squads should always have access to bosspoles and therefore the chances of running away is definitely not 50/50.

Lootas may have a problem with this, but problem can be avoided by smart deployment, forcing your opponent to choose their target more carefully.

Boyz mob are most resistant to Ld checks, contrary to what you thought otherwise. At 11-30, they are fearless. At 8-10, you use the mob rule leadership, and have access to reroll. At 1-7, you use Ld of 7 and have access to reroll.

As for your last pt - You haven't played against a Landraider spam list, have you?

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:Leadership is a much bigger problem for me than tanks.

If this is what you think, you may want to start getting some advice on how to play orks.


Btw, I am with the TS on his argument. The effectiveness of Meltas should not be overstated.

We're drifting madly off topic here into whether or not I'm a crap ork player but I'm going to respond to this anyway.

I do not "need advice on playing orks." I live in Japan and consequently have no GW store and my friendly LGS is some distance away and I can't go there for anything more than local tournies. I mostly play with a small group of friends a few of whom own multiple armies and one of which is a top tier player who regularly leaves Japan to attend international tournaments. Amongst them I do okay, I beat the top tier guy ocassionally, lose as much as you'd expect when an average player runs up against a very skilled player. In the last local tournament I placed 2nd on battle points (to the top tier guy) and first on victory points (and about 8th overall because I can't paint for gak). I may be missing the grand high trick to orks that will make me win ardboyz every year (not that I could compete in it as I live in Japan) but I do perfectly okay and win far more often than I lose.

So believe me, I know how to use my army and I do not respond well to insults based on absolutely no knowledge of myself.

Now arguing your actual points.

Bikes - yes my bikes have a bosspole, as does every unit in my army that can take one. Obviously this is better than 50/50 (math not my strong point but I believe the bosspole makes it a 75/25 chance of a pass if testing on ld7?) I was referring more to the general balance of the game. In half my games the cover saves, high toughness and relatively high armour save of my bikes makes them a very good unit for shrugging off enemy fire. I have seen them shrug off a whole destroyer units wrth of shots with no losses. It takes quite a high amount of firepower to get rid of them. However in the other half of my games I fail a leadership check and they run off the board, or lose cc against something pathetic like a devvy unit by 1, run away and get cut down. I still use them because all my opponents hate them and I think they're useful but they are crippled by that ld7.

Lootaz - you basically used the "use tactics" argument against me. What smart deployment allows for my lootaz to get a nice clear range of fire and not be shot back at? Does nobody use land speeders, deep strike units, outflankers, falcons, etc where you play? The list of units that can send a lootaz mob screaming from the table is long and varied. Usually they get by on the fact that most opponents don't wish to engage them directly and just ignore them, letting me ocassionally do something devastating with them. But anyone who seriously wants them gone only has to look at them funny.

And before you say it, yes I deploy in cover, yes I've used grot shields. None of that saves them from being tank shocked off the board edge for the umpteenth time.

Boyz - I'm well aware of how mob rule works thankyou and I use bosspoles in all mobz that can have one. Now I want you to examine your games with orks. Do you lose your boyz units because every model in the mob was killed　or do you lose boyz units when they lose cc and have to take a ld check at something like -6, fail and get cut down? Boyz are obviously the unit in the list that has the least problems with leadership as mob rule will keep them safe from ld checks from shooting on the way in and mean that it takes a lot of effort and attacks to get them to the stage when they can break. It doesn't change the fact that breaking ork mobz in cc is the easiest way to kill them.

I　notice you didn't respond to grot mobz or nobz mobz, both of which I've seen lost to ld checks too.

Land Raiders - you're right, I haven't played land raider spam. I imagine that it would be very, very tough for my army to beat. I could only hope that putting so many pts in raiders means that a) he doesn't have the bodies/firepower to hurt me properly and b ) I can wipe out his scoring units very quickly. 1 landraider hasn't proven a problem for me in games however.

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:We're drifting madly off topic here into whether or not I'm a crap ork player but I'm going to respond to this anyway.

I do not "need advice on playing orks." I live in Japan and consequently have no GW store and my friendly LGS is some distance away and I can't go there for anything more than local tournies. I mostly play with a small group of friends a few of whom own multiple armies and one of which is a top tier player who regularly leaves Japan to attend international tournaments. Amongst them I do okay, I beat the top tier guy ocassionally, lose as much as you'd expect when an average player runs up against a very skilled player. In the last local tournament I placed 2nd on battle points (to the top tier guy) and first on victory points (and about 8th overall because I can't paint for gak). I may be missing the grand high trick to orks that will make me win ardboyz every year (not that I could compete in it as I live in Japan) but I do perfectly okay and win far more often than I lose.

So believe me, I know how to use my army and I do not respond well to insults based on absolutely no knowledge of myself.

Now arguing your actual points.

Bikes - yes my bikes have a bosspole, as does every unit in my army that can take one. Obviously this is better than 50/50 (math not my strong point but I believe the bosspole makes it a 75/25 chance of a pass if testing on ld7?) I was referring more to the general balance of the game. In half my games the cover saves, high toughness and relatively high armour save of my bikes makes them a very good unit for shrugging off enemy fire. I have seen them shrug off a whole destroyer units wrth of shots with no losses. It takes quite a high amount of firepower to get rid of them. However in the other half of my games I fail a leadership check and they run off the board, or lose cc against something pathetic like a devvy unit by 1, run away and get cut down. I still use them because all my opponents hate them and I think they're useful but they are crippled by that ld7.

Lootaz - you basically used the "use tactics" argument against me. What smart deployment allows for my lootaz to get a nice clear range of fire and not be shot back at? Does nobody use land speeders, deep strike units, outflankers, falcons, etc where you play? The list of units that can send a lootaz mob screaming from the table is long and varied. Usually they get by on the fact that most opponents don't wish to engage them directly and just ignore them, letting me ocassionally do something devastating with them. But anyone who seriously wants them gone only has to look at them funny.

And before you say it, yes I deploy in cover, yes I've used grot shields. None of that saves them from being tank shocked off the board edge for the umpteenth time.

Boyz - I'm well aware of how mob rule works thankyou and I use bosspoles in all mobz that can have one. Now I want you to examine your games with orks. Do you lose your boyz units because every model in the mob was killed　or do you lose boyz units when they lose cc and have to take a ld check at something like -6, fail and get cut down? Boyz are obviously the unit in the list that has the least problems with leadership as mob rule will keep them safe from ld checks from shooting on the way in and mean that it takes a lot of effort and attacks to get them to the stage when they can break. It doesn't change the fact that breaking ork mobz in cc is the easiest way to kill them.

I　notice you didn't respond to grot mobz or nobz mobz, both of which I've seen lost to ld checks too.

Land Raiders - you're right, I haven't played land raider spam. I imagine that it would be very, very tough for my army to beat. I could only hope that putting so many pts in raiders means that a) he doesn't have the bodies/firepower to hurt me properly and b ) I can wipe out his scoring units very quickly. 1 landraider hasn't proven a problem for me in games however.

Don't show me your record, because I just yawned at it. Couple this with your comments that follow only makes me feel that only mediocre players took part in your local tournament

Bikes - So the chances that you get shot off based on normal shooting IS 25%, not too bad I would say. You mentioned CC. If you get cut down 50% of the time this way, blame it on the way you play, not the Ld. A good 75% chance is a good 75% chance, the fundamental doesnt change just because you played badly and charge into the wrong things.

Loota - I ll give JUST one example. Contrary to what some might think, Lootas are great support units for bikes. IF you have an army with this two units, with intelligent placement/deployment, you can force your opponent to face the wrath of your bikes sooner than they prefer, should they decide to harass your lootas.

Boyz - No, I am smarter and therefore I do not charge w/o thinking, lose cc and have to take a ld check at something like -6, fail and get cut down (thx, I lol-ed at this). There are times I do get cut down like tat, but definitely very rare. There is actually an article on dakka on this, great for beginners like you to read it up.

Grot - I use them less frequently. I don't coment on sth which I don't excel in.

Nob - I probably missed it or did not even see you mention them. Since you need help here, I ll oblige. Nobs have access to BPs (some players even take multiples), and preferbly should go along with a warboss to absorb str8/9 shots. For the same reasons, they are not too bad when it comes to taking Ld checks.

Since you haven't even played against such a list, there is no pt for me to discuss abt it here (as you most probably cant appreciate the idea anyway).

Well, this thread degenerated into flaming pretty quickly. Shame too, I was enjoying it until recently.

Now that we are done drifting off topic, I would like to remind people that orks do actually have a (single) melta shot

Meltas are fine, but there are other ways to kill tanks. Melta might be "most reliable" but it happens to also be "most dangerous" due to the specifics of the melta rule. You have to get close, REALLY close. (which I think the OP touched on)

starbomber109 wrote:Now that we are done drifting off topic, I would like to remind people that orks do actually have a (single) melta shot

Meltas are fine, but there are other ways to kill tanks. Melta might be "most reliable" but it happens to also be "most dangerous" due to the specifics of the melta rule. You have to get close, REALLY close. (which I think the OP touched on)

sure if you roll up the correct psychic power.

I miss the melta and auto-hit on zzzap gunz.

On the actual topic I agree entirely with the original poster. In my space wolves force (newly to be renovated, yay) my primary anti-tank weaponry is melta weapons but I always try and squeeze in a few autocannons and lascannons specifically for shutting down enemy transports. Pretty much the only way to beat DE (one of my regular opponents when I ran my wolves) is to blunt that raider rush with big guns.


P.S. I just noticed that I was arguing with Davicus who is a blatant troll and I have no intention of continuing this discussion. I would be far more productive attempting to turn back the tide. A beginner indeed. 11 years I have been playing this game.

Zzap Gunz never had a Melta effect. The auto-shake is handy though: there's something to be said for a tank that isn't shooting at your Orks.

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:P.S. I just noticed that I was arguing with Davicus who is a blatant troll and I have no intention of continuing this discussion. I would be far more productive attempting to turn back the tide. A beginner indeed. 11 years I have been playing this game.

I am not sure if you meant to use the word "troll" on yourself, but I think so.
If you got a point right, prove it. Don't start whining or flaming the moment someone proved you wrong. Otherwise, it doesnt matter how many years of 40k gaming experience you have, you ll remain a mediocre player.


I m sorry this went out of topic. I think this is a good thread and therefore let the discussion continue.

I dont ever see an army with only meltas. An Eldar army would run circles around them.

However, Meltas are simply the best option for a unit like CSM. Assault, ap1, 2d6 pen roll, strength 8 to instant kill - its overpowered really.

Night Lords wrote:I dont ever see an army with only meltas. An Eldar army would run circles around them.

However, Meltas are simply the best option for a unit like CSM. Assault, ap1, 2d6 pen roll, strength 8 to instant kill - its overpowered really.

considering we cannot tac squad (damn marines) I must concur 100%

Fetterkey wrote:Eldar are a special case; Fire Dragons are indeed so good that they can easily be your primary anti-tank firepower. My post is mostly focused towards Imperial armies, and Marines in particular, which I have much more experience with.

Indeed they do make basically anything go boom, but just like with guard, there is a downside to meltas. You have to get in explosion range as t3 vs a s3 explosion which is bound to occur when you're using an ap1 weapon along side tank hunters.

I've tried the dual Melta Gun, but it leaves a squad of Chaos Space Marines either holding their dicks in their hands, or struggling across the field in the face of enemy fire, if the enemy doesn't oblige and drive an expensive heavy tank up in front of them.

A Melta Gun, Combi-Melta, and a Lascannon gives you tank-cracking ability at all ranges, and the 9 Bolters gives you some anti-infantry firepower to complement that.

I just wish CSM didn't have to pay so many points for 2 meltaguns. I always thought 20 wasn't so bad.

Until I saw SW get 2 for 5. D'oh

At least we're still better in close combat. ....oh wait....

But we don't cost as mu.....dang!

Screw it, counts-as Space Wolves!

Spellbound wrote:I just wish CSM didn't have to pay so many points for 2 meltaguns. I always thought 20 wasn't so bad.

Until I saw SW get 2 for 5. D'oh

At least we're still better in close combat. ....oh wait....

But we don't cost as mu.....dang!

Screw it, counts-as Space Wolves!

Honestly I'm not gonna hop into that boat like most CSM players will probably be doing here soon enough... we might get lucky and get a nice, sexy new codex, or maybe a legion dex, or something...

Even so, I'm content with chaos as a whole. yeah, we're gimped in some areas, but honestly I like zerker rush and things. And you can't top the psychological effects of lash

You cant look at the SWs book's troops in isolation. They seem to have to dedicate a ton of points into HQs, and lack a few units Chaos has access to.

Night Lords wrote:You cant look at the SWs book's troops in isolation. They seem to have to dedicate a ton of points into HQs, and lack a few units Chaos has access to.

Don't they also have certain restrictions too? I know they have to take at least 2 HQ's a game, which is at least 300 points (cuz each HQ is half a slot for em). I know GH's are the cheapest marines in the game, but most of their other stuffs pretty expensive... not dark angels or blood ravens expensive, but still expensive